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Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

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    #62
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Morgase wrote: »
    So if a woman finds herself with an unwanted pregnancy even though she and her partner have done all they can to prevent it, you insist that they must go through with it and look after a child for at least 18 years. How loved that child will be!

    They can put the child up for adoption. As an atheist I am convinced of the preciousness of human life since you only get one, you should do all you can to respect other peoples.

    Abortion should only be considered under the most extreme circumstances, i.e. unviable fetus or mother's life in danger. Why stop at "unwanted" babies? Why not unwanted old folks, travellers, criminals? That's my reason for being anti-abortion.


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    #63
    strobe
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,872 ✭✭✭strobe


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    practising safe sex,and not getting abortion on demand if you get pregnant face the music,have an attitude of genuine maturity when it comes to sex,you and your partner,face the music if needs be..

    You have the gall to talk about people needing 'an attitude of genuine maturity'? Face the music...? What horseshit, are you 12? So someone has sex with a condom and still contracts chlamydia... no doxycycline for them? What would they learn then sure? Best they face the music.

    Ugghh... it's painful..


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    #64
    IrishZeus
    Registered Users Posts: 1,887 ✭✭✭IrishZeus


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    and tell that to the HSE,and no i wont take back what i have said,i wasnt implying i knew anything about you whatsoever,i was stating the hard facts of abortion,its not as simple as scratching it out of your life,as a lot of people seem to think..

    Dont be so naive do you honestly think the HSE can handle opening manning,staffing and running abortion clinics on top of the mess they are already making of hospitals(hospitals closing down etc??)..


    Christmas, have you yourself had an abortion? I ask so that I can put context on the views you're expressing as they seem more to represent someone with experience in the area. Feel free not to answer if you would prefer not to.


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    #65
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    tell that to me again AFTER you get an abortion,
    Morgase wrote: »
    You don't know a damned thing about me.
    Folks, can we please take a step back and have a breather.

    Abortion is an emotive topic and it's best discussed as calmly as possible. So, please, on the writing side, no personal remarks. And on the reading side, please don't take any posts as being personal.

    thanks.


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    #66
    Morgase
    Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭Morgase


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    Dont be so naive do you honestly think the HSE can handle opening manning,staffing and running abortion clinics on top of the mess they are already making of hospitals(hospitals closing down etc??)..

    Who said anything about the HSE?
    professore wrote: »
    They can put the child up for adoption. As an atheist I am convinced of the preciousness of human life since you only get one, you should do all you can to respect other peoples.

    As a biologist, I don't see why an embryo without a consciousness has more of a right to my body than I do.

    And as a woman I am convinced that I should have the right to not be treated as an incubator. If I don't want to carry a child inside me for nine months, then I should have the right to an abortion.


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    #67
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Morgase wrote: »
    As a biologist, I don't see why an embryo without a consciousness has more of a right to my body than I do.

    What about someone with advanced Alzheimers or other brain diseases who have no consciousness of self worth speaking of? Do they have no right to life either?
    Morgase wrote: »
    And as a woman I am convinced that I should have the right to not be treated as an incubator. If I don't want to carry a child inside me for nine months, then I should have the right to an abortion.

    Sorry but I see that as a selfish attitude.


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    #68
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    not everything,and no they dont talk you through it - they ask you for a few hundred sterling before you walk into the clinic to wait for an hour or two the clinics are packed as ever,and not everyone in that room has made the right decision..there are a few exceptions rape victims,incest victims,those who bear handicaps,and those incompatible with life etc,but abortion for everyone is not the right message to send out,it sends out a message you can do what you want and not face consequences,sooner or later it will catch up with them by way of std or what not..
    it encourages the wrong attitude towards sex.

    What on Earth does the highlighted passage mean?


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    #69
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    I'd call holding on to someone with advanced Alzheimers or some other condition where they have no consciousness is just keeping a sack of meat alive to you can put off feeling sad over its loss. That's pretty selfish too.


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    #70
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    Morgase wrote: »
    And what about other contraception such as the coil? Many methods of contraception prevent implantation, not fertilisation.

    I have to disagree that abortion should only be for extreme circumstances. Thousands of women travel to the UK for the procedure. Let's please be done with the "Irish solution to the Irish problem" and allow those women to do the same thing at home.

    as long no pregnancy occurs,I'm fine about contraception.


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    #71
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    What on Earth does the highlighted passage mean?

    Christmas2012 doesn't do answering questions.


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    #72
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Sarky wrote: »
    I'd call holding on to someone with advanced Alzheimers or some other condition where they have no consciousness is just keeping a sack of meat alive to you can put off feeling sad over its loss. That's pretty selfish too.

    I actually agree more with this than abortion. With abortion you are removing a perfectly viable healthy human being from the world for reasons of convenience.


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    #73
    aidan24326
    Registered Users Posts: 5,925 ✭✭✭aidan24326


    christmas2012 wrote: »
    Some do breeze into abortion clinics thinking this is a problem i can scratch out of my life

    Really? I doubt that very much. I don't think too many girls have ever breezed into an abortion clinic whistling happy tunes. It aint the kind of thing that goes with the breezing territory really. And it's not something that ever really gets scratched out of your life, the girl who has an abortion has to live with the consequences of her decision, even though in many cases it was the correct decision it's still something that can cause a lot of conflicting emotions.


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    #74
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    I personally love getting abortions, my local abortion clinic also do spray tans and provide lattes for all.


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    #75
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    professore wrote: »
    I actually agree more with this than abortion. With abortion you are removing a perfectly viable healthy human being from the world for reasons of convenience.

    Embryos have even less brain function than most adults with advanced Alzheimers or similar though.


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    #76
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    I found out one of my best friends had an abortion when she was younger (16).

    I never let on to her I know as I would end up either lying to her about my feelings on the subject or falling out over it.


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    #77
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    Magic -- let's try have as civil a debate as possible. Thanks.


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    #78
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    Sarky wrote: »
    Embryos have even less brain function than most adults with advanced Alzheimers or similar though.

    But the embryo if left alone will aquire even more brain power and become a viable person, whereas the Alzheimers patient will just degrade further


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    #79
    MisterEpicurus
    Closed Accounts Posts: 588 ✭✭✭MisterEpicurus


    A fetus isn't a child - if the fetus were to be placed into the 'natural world', it would die.

    To then argue - "But, but...it WILL become a child!"

    ...well then you'd have to stop using condoms as this equally reduces the 'Potential' for a child which "WILL" happen

    So really the arguing against a fetal abortion is a silly one and the mother deserves whether this 'potential child' has any more say in her life than the 'potential children' from sperm, i.e. using contraception.

    If the child is sufficiently old enough to survive in the 'natural world', then it should not be terminated.

    I don't see any complication when viewing it like this tbh.

    And anyone who references the Bible or any other text is an idiot.


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    #80
    robindch
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 24,417 Mod ✭✭✭✭robindch


    MisterEpicurus wrote: »
    And anyone who references the Bible or any other text is an idiot.
    I've posted two inthread warnings in the last 25 minutes. This is the last warning to keep things civil.

    The next poster who makes unhelpful personal remarks, even indirect ones like this, will be carded.


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    #81
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    Morgase wrote: »
    And what about other contraception such as the coil? Many methods of contraception prevent implantation, not fertilisation.

    I have to disagree that abortion should only be for extreme circumstances. Thousands of women travel to the UK for the procedure. Let's please be done with the "Irish solution to the Irish problem" and allow those women to do the same thing at home.

    Also should we legalise euthanasia , mercy killings for when people become a burden? Other countries do it, should we follow suit?


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    #82
    Morgase
    Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭Morgase


    professore wrote: »
    What about someone with advanced Alzheimers or other brain diseases who have no consciousness of self worth speaking of? Do they have no right to life either?

    I think that's an entirely different issue, but I'd agree with what Sarky said earlier. I'm sure we've all known an older person who suffered from those awful diseases, and I just can't equate that with an embryo.
    Sorry but I see that as a selfish attitude.

    It's not selfish at all. I don't want to put myself at risk of the many health problems that can occur during pregnancy, so I will do everything in my power to avoid it. Pregnancy is not a walk in the park for all women.


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    #83
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    MisterEpicurus wrote: »
    A fetus isn't a child - if the fetus were to be placed into the 'natural world', it would die.

    To then argue - "But, but...it WILL become a child!"

    ...well then you'd have to stop using condoms as this equally reduces the 'Potential' for a child which "WILL" happen

    So really the arguing against a fetal abortion is a silly one and the mother deserves whether this 'potential child' has any more say in her life than the 'potential children' from sperm, i.e. using contraception.

    If the child is sufficiently old enough to survive in the 'natural world', then it should not be terminated.

    I don't see any complication when viewing it like this tbh.

    And anyone who references the Bible or any other text is an idiot.

    But again , if left alone the foetus will become a child
    Where the sperm at inside a condom will not become a child as it needs the female half to develop.

    So yes the fetous is a potential person

    Im an atheist by the way


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    #84
    Morgase
    Registered Users Posts: 737 ✭✭✭Morgase


    Sin City wrote: »
    Also should we legalise euthanasia , mercy killings for when people become a burden? Other countries do it, should we follow suit?

    I really do think you can't equate the two. We're talking here about aborting something that only has the potential to become a person. It's completely different.

    Anyway, isn't euthanasia in other countries more to do with allowing people to take their own lives?


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    #85
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Sarky wrote: »
    Embryos have even less brain function than most adults with advanced Alzheimers or similar though.

    The difference is the person with advanced Alzheimers will never improve, whereas the developing embryo will.

    For abortion itself, it depends where you draw the line. I don't want a Monty Pythonesque "Every Sperm is Sacred" law either. I think we need to define when life begins. Probably somewhere around 6-7 weeks judging by this graphic.

    http://www.babycenter.com/fetal-development-images-7-weeks


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    #86
    Improbable
    Registered Users Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Improbable


    Sin City wrote: »
    But again , if left alone the foetus will become a child
    Where the sperm at inside a condom will not become a child as it needs the female half to develop.

    So yes the fetous is a potential person

    Im an atheist by the way

    But if you didn't use the condom, then there is also a potential that the sperm will fertilize an egg and that will become a child. Are you also against the use of condoms on that basis? It's a silly line of reasoning.


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    #87
    seamus
    Registered Users Posts: 68,317 ✭✭✭✭seamus


    Sin City wrote: »
    Also should we legalise euthanasia , mercy killings for when people become a burden? Other countries do it, should we follow suit?
    Absolutely. If someone wants to leave, let them go.

    Don't see what that has to do with abortion though?

    One is the ending of a functioning human life, the other is not. Yes, the embryo/foetus may grow to a point where it can sustain its own life, but equally it may not. And more importantly, it cannot while it is still an embryo.


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    #88
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    Morgase wrote: »
    I really do think you can't equate the two. We're talking here about aborting something that only has the potential to become a person. It's completely different.

    Anyway, isn't euthanasia in other countries more to do with allowing people to take their own lives?

    But I can equate the too, again if left alone it will develop into a person.


    There are some out there who cant equate a third trimester bably with a newborn and think the abortion is still justified as it isnt a person yet.

    I do believe that a pp (potential person) has as much right to life as anyone else.


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    #89
    professore
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,857 ✭✭✭professore


    Morgase wrote: »
    It's not selfish at all. I don't want to put myself at risk of the many health problems that can occur during pregnancy, so I will do everything in my power to avoid it. Pregnancy is not a walk in the park for all women.

    That's the point in bold. There is more than "you" in consideration. My children are very expensive and I'm sure directly responsible for some health problems in my wife and I, but I wouldn't consider getting rid of them for convenience sake.

    If you are responsible, there's plenty of perfectly good contraceptive methods out there and the morning after pill which BTW I don't consider abortion.


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    #90
    Zamboni
    Registered Users Posts: 4,305 ✭✭✭Zamboni


    I'm all for abortion and euthanasia.
    Anything that will strategically reduce the ridiculously unsustainability of our species is good in my book.
    Human life is not as precious as it is made out to be.


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    #91
    Sin City
    Registered Users Posts: 2,375 ✭✭✭Sin City


    Improbable wrote: »
    But if you didn't use the condom, then there is also a potential that the sperm will fertilize an egg and that will become a child. Are you also against the use of condoms on that basis? It's a silly line of reasoning.

    I was using a condom as an example , I believe that as long as contraception works and no pregenacy occurs then the pp wont have existed to argue the toss


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