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Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

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    #9332
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    lazygal wrote: »
    Not everyone wants to continue being pregnant. I know woman who after a nuchal fold test showed markers for Downs Syndrom decided to terminate pregnancies because they had a child with the syndrome and knew what a tough road it was ahead. What about termination in the case of a multiple pregnancy, where to save the lives of some, the termination of prengnacy of one or more foetuses takes place, should all be put at risk of dying instead?
    Would you be willing to undertake a risky proceedure lasting nine months to make sure someone you've never met will stay alive, and decline other medical or dentail treatment, endure lifestyle restrictions and possibly undergo surgery to make sure the person stays alive, even if they will be severely disabled? What about the rest of the family, should they have to take on the stress of a child needing constant care? I know a little about how medical problems can impact on those around the patient, and now I have a family of my own I know there's certain things I will not impose on my other children, among which is a burden of care for their silbings.
    Would I go about having killed off what was to become my child which I'd created to avoid personal "risks" or a "tough road"? I'm sorry, but absolutely not.


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    #9333
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    You have my sympathies. And sincerely apologise if I have unintentionally caused you any further pain. I should make this clear - there are extreme cases when abortion is necessary.

    What I am talking about are cases such as a friend of my wives who found out ( and I apologise if this not the PC term in English as I am translating directly) a "waterheaded" baby. She decided that this would be an inconvenience to her life and didn't fit in with her ideal of a baby (as a fashion accessory). She had a late term abortion with the intention of getting pregnant again with a "normal" baby -like she had kept the receipt and was returning a pair of shoes she didn't like.

    This really disgusted me when I seen one of these such babies on a home makeover type show. He had a loving mother and was one of the happiest children I've seen.
    To be honest, you have little idea of what went through your wife's friend's mind and your fashion accessory line is particularly insulting. Hydrocephalus is not a straight forward condition. From what I've read it can cause rather debilitating damage to the child's brain depending on the damage and they may lack any quality of living as a result.

    There are other factors that one has to consider, can they afford to raise the child with the extra costs involved and are they mentally strong to cope with issues that will arise in the future. It can also be a struggle for the child

    To be perfectly honest, one should not question the mother's decision when you clearly have no clue what went through her mind. You think less of her because she chose to have an abortion, why do you think that is okay? You clearly have not looked further into the condition but make conclusions about the mother's choice.


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    #9334
    SebBerkovich
    Registered Users Posts: 1,624 ✭✭✭SebBerkovich


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Would I go about having killed off what was to become my child which I'd created to avoid personal "risks" or a "tough road"? I'm sorry, but absolutely not.

    Must be nice to have that Choice....


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    #9335
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Would I go about having killed off what was to become my child which I'd created to avoid personal "risks" or a "tough road"? I'm sorry, but absolutely not.



    Are there any circumstances in which you'd decide not to continue a pregnancy? Such as a fatal diagnosis?

    Are you planning to adopt any children born with severe disabilities?


    I used to think like you, then I had a baby after a difficult pregnancy. No woman should be forced to continue to remain pregnant, regardless of how other people think or how selfish they think she's being, because no one will have to deal with the aftermath but her.


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    #9336
    MrPudding
    Registered Users Posts: 9,788 ✭✭✭MrPudding


    @ BB, is there some inconsistency in you accounts of partial birth abortion? The picture you posted does not seem to tally with the nurses account. In fact, I am not sure her account tallies with her account.

    If the baby was ripped out in pieces and had its brain sucked out causing the collapse of the skull would they really present that to the mother in a blanket? Could you really think a baby with a collapsed skull had a cute face?

    MrP


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    #9337
    IT-Guy
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭IT-Guy


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Would I go about having killed off what was to become my child which I'd created to avoid personal "risks" or a "tough road"? I'm sorry, but absolutely not.

    And to the nub of the argument - that's your choice which you don't get to impose on people who don't feel the same!


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    #9338
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    IT-Guy wrote: »
    Do you mean babies born with hydrocephalus? Without knowing the individual case, hydrocephalus can have complications beyond what some people may feel capable of dealing with, including mental disability and death. However strongly you feel about the kid you saw on tv, it would be unwise to think all cases of hydrocephalus have such a positive outcome.

    And BB, do yourself and the rest of us a favour, please lay off the comparisons between abortions and returning goods with a receipt or babies as fashion accessories, it's infantile, demeans your entire argument and comes across as offensive.
    It does not demean my argument at all. She was completely blase about it. In her view her child would have been defective and was therefore worthless to her and she wanted a "normal" baby.


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    #9339
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    It does not demean my argument at all. She was completely blase about it. In her view her child would have been defective and was therefore worthless to her and she wanted a "normal" baby.

    So is your argument is that because one woman seemed to consider a disabled child an inconvenience all women are like that?


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    #9340
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    lazygal wrote: »
    Are there any circumstances in which you'd decide not to continue a pregnancy? Such as a fatal diagnosis?

    Are you planning to adopt any children born with severe disabilities?

    I used to think like you, then I had a baby after a difficult pregnancy. No woman should be forced to continue to remain pregnant, regardless of how other people think or how selfish they think she's being, because no one will have to deal with the aftermath but her.

    We actually do intend do adopt in the future due to the positive impact on my wife's life. I would be happy to adopt a disabled child.

    I too am pro-choice generally. That doesn't mean that I believe a mother has the right to choose molest her children. My primary concern is with 20 + weeks abortions on virtual demand where the foetus very possibly feels extreme pain and a barbaric termination of their lives.


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    #9341
    maguic24
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,790 ✭✭✭maguic24


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    It does not demean my argument at all. She was completely blase about it. In her view her child would have been defective and was therefore worthless to her and she wanted a "normal" baby.

    You don't know what's going on in someone else's head, no matter what they say or how they act. I walk around smiling and try to be cheerful even though I may be upset/annoyed on the inside.


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    #9342
    IT-Guy
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭IT-Guy


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    It does not demean my argument at all. She was completely blase about it. In her view her child would have been defective and was therefore worthless to her and she wanted a "normal" baby.

    So if you had the option, would you have forced her to carry the baby to term? What gives you any say in her choices for her baby? As harsh as it sounds the baby may not have been normal, something she wouldn't have been able to deal with but in your rose tinted view of the world she'd grow to love the baby like the mother you saw on the TV show?


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    #9343
    Corkfeen
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,940 ✭✭✭Corkfeen


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    It does not demean my argument at all. She was completely blase about it. In her view her child would have been defective and was therefore worthless to her and she wanted a "normal" baby.

    You still have no clue what was going on in her mind. For all you know, that was her only way to cope and you choose to judge her decision making. I'd suspect it wasn't particularly easy for a woman who intended on having a child to go forward with having an abortion. Not like returning a defective good as you seem to believe. You do realise your comments are deeply offensive to people who have had abortions for reasons such as hydrocephalus....


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    #9344
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    So is your argument is that because one woman seemed to consider a disabled child an inconvenience all women are like that?
    No. However, some people can be and are like that.


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    #9345
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    No. However, some people can be and are like that.


    What does the reason for termination of the pregnancy matter? The outcome is the same.


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    #9346
    SebBerkovich
    Registered Users Posts: 1,624 ✭✭✭SebBerkovich


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    No. However, some people can be and are like that.

    As far as i'm concerned it's none of your business why a women might choose to get an abortion.

    You have no right to feel so aggrieved by something that has nothing to do you with you.


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    #9347
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    It does not demean my argument at all. She was completely blase about it. In her view her child would have been defective and was therefore worthless to her and she wanted a "normal" baby.

    If somebody want's to abort a (your word) "defective" foetus then I see no reason in making them go to full term.

    If your frind was blase about an issue you feel strongly about, then stop being her friend.

    Do not get mad when you try to push your world view on to others and they disagree with you - there are lots of different viewpoints out there.


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    #9348
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    lazygal wrote: »
    What does the reason for termination of the pregnancy matter? The outcome is the same.

    Why are manslaughter and murder two different charges? The outcome is the same.


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    #9349
    IT-Guy
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭IT-Guy


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    We actually do intend do adopt in the future due to the positive impact on my wife's life. I would be happy to adopt a disabled child.

    I too am pro-choice generally. That doesn't mean that I believe a mother has the right to choose molest her children. My primary concern is with 20 + weeks abortions on virtual demand where the foetus very possibly feels extreme pain and a barbaric termination of their lives.

    Then your concern is with approx 1% of abortions as outlined in oldrnwisr's earlier post. And again with the inflammatory comments, molest her children? You have a very negative view of women I think BB.

    BTW, at what stage of pregnancy did your friend's wife have her 'returning a pair of shoes she didn't like' abortion?


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    #9350
    Bannasidhe
    Registered Users Posts: 19,218 ✭✭✭✭Bannasidhe


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    No. However, some people can be and are like that.

    Some people drink to excess and become violent.
    Some people drink to excess and this causes them serious health problems.
    Some people drink to excess and destroy their lives.

    Should we ban alcohol?

    That seems to be what you are saying here - because some women may, in your view, abuse the availability of abortion all women will.

    If that was not your implication why did you even refer to this case?


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    #9351
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    SebBerkovich wrote: »
    As far as i'm concerned it's none of your business why a women might choose to get an abortion.

    You have no right to feel so aggrieved by something that has nothing to do you with you.
    ... by your own logic you aren't against paedophilia. I assume that this isn't the case.


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    #9352
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    Bannasidhe wrote: »
    Some people drink to excess and become violent.
    Some people drink to excess and this causes them serious health problems.
    Some people drink to excess and destroy their lives.

    Should we ban alcohol?

    That seems to be what you are saying here - because some women may, in your view, abuse the availability of abortion all women will.

    If that was not your implication why did you even refer to this case?
    I'm not talking about banning anything to be fair. I'm talking about this morally.


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    #9353
    SebBerkovich
    Registered Users Posts: 1,624 ✭✭✭SebBerkovich


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    ... by your own logic you aren't against paedophilia. I assume that this isn't the case.

    Jesus Christ... thats some jump.... I don't think it deserves being dignified with a counter argument.
    I think you should probably just have a think to yourself about why you needed to respond to a reasonable argument by claiming i'm a pro-paedophillia...


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    #9354
    MagicMarker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 32,865 ✭✭✭✭MagicMarker


    Dig up BB, dig up!


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    #9355
    IT-Guy
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭IT-Guy


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    ... by your own logic you aren't against paedophilia. I assume that this isn't the case.

    News flash BB, that thing you like to think of as logic, it ain't. It's more like a blinkered, tunnel-vision view of the world. You lack the ability to rationalise, empathise and compartmentalise if you see no difference between paedophilia and abortion. Here's a hint, the issue of consent is key i.e. a kid cannot consent to sex but I'm sure you knew that already


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    #9356
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    SebBerkovich wrote: »
    Jesus Christ... thats some jump.... I don't think it deserves being dignified with a counter argument.
    I think you should probably just have a think to yourself about why you needed to respond to a reasonable argument by claiming i'm a pro-paedophillia...

    A) Never said you were pro-paedophilia FFS, I said the opposite.
    B) This is what you said "You have no right to feel so aggrieved by something that has nothing to do you with you."

    This equally applies to YOU (and everything else) and PAEDOPHILIA (and everything else).


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    #9357
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    I'm not talking about banning anything to be fair. I'm talking about this morally.

    This is one of a series of similar words that crops up often on these forums. Define "morally".


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    #9358
    Brown Bomber
    Site Banned Posts: 8,331 ✭✭✭Brown Bomber


    old hippy wrote: »
    This is one of a series of similar words that crops up often on these forums. Define "morally".
    Difference between right and wrong.


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    #9359
    lazygal
    Registered Users Posts: 12,644 ✭✭✭✭lazygal


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Difference between right and wrong.



    What is right and wrong, in the context of abortion? Forced pregnancy? Forced abortion? A choice to continue to remain pregnant or terminate a pregnancy for whatever reason? Medical advice to continue to remain pregnant or terminate a pregnancy?

    I really feel sorry for you that you see everything to do with the abortion debate in such black and white terms. It means one often gets boxed into a corner in debates such as this.


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    #9360
    eyescreamcone
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,562 ✭✭✭eyescreamcone


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    Difference between right and wrong.

    Who and how, do you decide what's right and what's wrong?


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    #9361
    SebBerkovich
    Registered Users Posts: 1,624 ✭✭✭SebBerkovich


    Brown Bomber wrote: »
    A)

    B) This is what you said "You have no right to feel so aggrieved by something that has nothing to do you with you."

    This equally applies to YOU (and everything else) and PAEDOPHILIA (and everything else).

    In the context of this thread my comment was obviously referring to the fact that someone has made a personal, moral and legal choice for themselves and in that context you have no right to feel hard done by because you happen to disagree with them.

    (thowing in the padophillia thing as "logic" was to say the least, out of order.)


This discussion has been closed.
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