Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Brown Bomber

Penn wrote: »

Fixed Link: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=85418782&postcount=9271

Right, well I am afraid IT guy is wrong. What Mark is speaking of there is a different kind but equally barbaric method of surgical abortion.

Brown Bomber

bumper234 wrote: »

Yes i do think it's ok to abort a fetus if the mothers life is in danger. Now you can again comeback and say "That's not what i asked" but i choose to take the pro life stance and will ignore the part that i deem not to be part of the issue for me. There is no proof of pain to the fetus therefore that part of the question is irrelevant.

Why are you afraid to answer the question???

bumper234

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Why are you afraid to answer the question???

What question would that be? I cannot answer a question that is made up of lies and false assumptions.

Do you believe sneezing and not saying bless me causes the cute baby unicorns living on saturn to die?

Brown Bomber

kylith wrote: »

I find it quite interesting that no reason for that procedure is given. The patient is quite young, so I think that it is more than possible that her pregnancy is injurious to either her physical or mental health.

You keep saying that you don't think anyone should be forced to do anything, yet you keep harping on about procedures that are generally only done in extremis. If you don't think that a woman should be forced to carry a pregnancy that could well kill her why do you keep bringing up procedures that, 99 times out of 100, are done to save the woman's life?

They are not only done in extremes.

I'm in the UK 24 weeks pregnant, a stage when my unborn child has a chance of survival outside the womb. My friends are going to Australia for a year, I decide I want to go too and don't want my baby anymore. On advice, I go to my doctor and tell him I am suicidal. He books me in for D & E abortion at the taxpayers expense where my unborn child will have things done to them that are now censored to mention in this forum. My unborn child may feel the pain of these actions before the life is terminated.

IT-Guy

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Right, well I am afraid IT guy is wrong. What Mark is speaking of there is a different kind but equally barbaric method of surgical abortion.

Please read my edited post, meant to link to Lingua Francas earlier reply to you

Brown Bomber

Nodin wrote: »

So it doesn't happen in Britain in any statistically significant amount....

which is a stark contrast from

You have it all wrong I'm afraid. That link has nothing to do with D & E abortion and it was "regular" as in normal.

SebBerkovich

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You have it all wrong I'm afraid. That link has nothing to do with D & E abortion and it was "regular" as in normal.

And we should take your unbiased word for that then?

oldrnwisr

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Yes, there is debate within the scientific community. Including the authors of your report who benefit from the cash-cow of abortion.

I really wanted to respond to oldernwiser's excellent post earlier as it was the best rebuttal of my argumeand hope to in due course.

But that report he linked to was authored by abortionists and lobbyists including one who didn't declare their conflict of interest.

Thank you for your comments BB.

I have to start by pointing out however that a conflict of interest is not necessarily detrimental to their conclusions, even an undisclosed one. Really it's just poisoning the well.

Now, just to pre-empt your rebuttal in a way, but moreso to substantiate my previous link, the review study I quoted earlier has been reinforced by several later studies such as:

Cortical pain responses in human infants.

Fetal Pain: Do We Know Enough to Do the Right Thing?

A Shift in Sensory Processing that Enables the Developing Human Brain to Discriminate Touch from Pain

Furthermore while there have been legitimate critiques of this paper:

Fetal Pain - Letters to the Editor

its key findings were confirmed in a review paper undertaken by the Royal College of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists who can hardly be accused of a conflict of interest:

Fetal Awareness - Review of Research and Recommendations for Practice

Brown Bomber

SebBerkovich wrote: »

And we should take your unbiased word for that then?

No, this article written for medical professionals which I linked to. I would have expected that to be clear. http://www.patient.co.uk/doctor/termination-of-pregnancy

Nodin

Brown Bomber wrote: »

You have it all wrong I'm afraid. That link has nothing to do with D & E abortion and it was "regular" as in normal.

Well then could you please present the stats for D&E abortion in the uk ?

Brown Bomber

Oldernwiser,

I apologise for not giving your post(s) the attention they deserve - I'm worn out now. I, more than anything hope you are correct and these aborted babies don't feel pain, and you have convinced me that the science surrounding foetal pain is uncertain. However, uncertain is not enough for me. The possibility that these unborn children receive such a violent and torturous end is enough to make it repugnant.

oldrnwisr

Nodin wrote: »

Well then could you please present the stats for D&E abortion in the uk ?

They're in the UK abortion stats for 2010 which I posted here.

D&E is a listed technique, although it only accounts for 5% of all abortions. It's use tends to increase with increasing gestational age with a peak of 15-19 weeks where it is used in 74% of all surgical abortions in that period.

Whether that counts as "regular" I'm not sure.

lazygal

Brown Bomber wrote: »

They are not only done in extremes.

I'm in the UK 24 weeks pregnant, a stage when my unborn child has a chance of survival outside the womb. My friends are going to Australia for a year, I decide I want to go too and don't want my baby anymore. On advice, I go to my doctor and tell him I am suicidal. He books me in for D & E abortion at the taxpayers expense where my unborn child will have things done to them that are now censored to mention in this forum. My unborn child may feel the pain of these actions before the life is terminated.

Yeah, cos that's why women choose to terminate pregnancies.

And women who lie to get access to medical procedures should certainly be forced to become mothers as a punishment, in fact no woman should be able to terminate a pregnancy because this^might happen.

Brown Bomber

bumper234 wrote: »

What question would that be?

This one:

"Are you in possession of such a moral conflict? Do you think it is okay to take the life of an unborn child in a gruesome medical procedure that may cause unspeakable pain to the unborn child?"

Sarky

Silvio was more fun

Brown Bomber

lazygal wrote: »

Yeah, cos that's why women choose to terminate pregnancies.

And women who lie to get access to medical procedures should certainly be forced to become mothers as a punishment, in fact no woman should be able to terminate a pregnancy because this^might happen.

If it did happen would you be against it?

lazygal

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This one:

"Are you in possession of such a moral conflict? Do you think it is okay to take the life of an unborn child in a gruesome medical procedure that may cause unspeakable pain to the unborn child?"

Labour and birth isn't gruesome free either. Have a look for images of episiotomy and third degree tear in childbirth if you want to inform yourself.

oldrnwisr

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Oldernwiser,

I apologise for not giving your post(s) the attention they deserve - I'm worn out now. I, more than anything hope you are correct and these aborted babies don't feel pain, and you have convinced me that the science surrounding foetal pain is uncertain. However, uncertain is not enough for me. The possibility that these unborn children receive such a violent and torturous end is enough to make it repugnant.

Thanks, BB.

I don't like the idea of an abortion actually causing pain to a foetus any more than you do. However, what troubles me more is the issue of foetal pain being used by some on the more extreme end of the pro-life spectrum as a stepwise means to shut the door on all abortions beyond a particular point. As important as foetal pain maybe, it must be recognised that there will be situations where other factors, most importantly maternal health, can and will outweigh considerations like foetal pain.

kylith

Brown Bomber wrote: »

They are not only done in extremes.

I'm in the UK 24 weeks pregnant, a stage when my unborn child has a chance of survival outside the womb. My friends are going to Australia for a year, I decide I want to go too and don't want my baby anymore.

Well, this is horrifically revelatory of your opinion of women, to be frank. The notion that a woman would go through the pain, illness, and everything else that comes from 6 months of pregnancy only to get a termination on a whim so she can go on holiday is [SNIP] offensive [SNIP].

Secondly, once you have reached 24 weeks abortion in the UK is only allowable if it is necessary to save the woman's life, to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or if there is substantial risk that if the child were born, s/he would have physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped*.

On advice, I go to my doctor and tell him I am suicidal.
He books me in for D & E abortion at the taxpayers expense where my unborn child will have things done to them that are now censored to mention in this forum. My unborn child may feel the pain of these actions before the life is terminated.

Got any links to back up your statement that it's as easy as just saying you're suicidal? The only UK case I can find refers to a woman who was institutionalised, so there was no real doubt of her mental health problems there. Would love to read your non-biased (i.e. a medical journal or similar, NOT a pro-life site) link backing up your claim that to obtain a post cut-off termination in the UK you need only wander in and tell the doctor you're suicidal.

*http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Abortion/Pages/Introduction.aspx

lazygal

Brown Bomber wrote: »

If it did happen would you be against it?

I have no interest in denying a procedure to all women because you think someone has an abortion at 24 weeks to go to Austrlia for a year.

bumper234

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This one:

"Are you in possession of such a moral conflict? Do you think it is okay to take the life of an unborn child in a gruesome medical procedure that may cause unspeakable pain to the unborn child?"

And again i will reply. I cannot answer this as it is a hypothetical question. You are asking me to make answer a question while giving me false parameters for that question. It "may" cause unspeakable pain to the fetus but then for all we know it "could" cause orgasmic pleasure...None of us have ever been through it so none of us know.

Turtwig

bumper234 wrote: »

And again i will reply. I cannot answer this as it is a hypothetical question. You are asking me to make answer a question while giving me false parameters for that question. It "may" cause unspeakable pain to the fetus but then for all we know it "could" cause orgasmic pleasure...None of us have ever been through it so none of us know.

He's posing a hypothetical though. You may argue it is an unfair hypothetical* but the point is you have to work within his constraints to actually answer the question. So, in the scenario that there is a very strong likelihood of the foetus experiencing extreme pain are you ok with an abortion being carried out? In my case the answer would be yes. I regard the life and experiences of the woman as being above that of the child.

The hypothetical is unfair or biased because it's only taking into the consideration the health of one individual.

Brown Bomber

kylith wrote: »

Well, this is horrifically revelatory of your opinion of women, to be frank. The notion that a woman would go through the pain, illness, and everything else that comes from 6 months of pregnancy only to get a termination on a whim so she can go on holiday is [SNIP] offensive [SNIP].

Secondly, once you have reached 24 weeks abortion in the UK is only allowable if it is necessary to save the woman's life, to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman or if there is substantial risk that if the child were born, s/he would have physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped*.

Got any links to back up your statement that it's as easy as just saying you're suicidal? The only UK case I can find refers to a woman who was institutionalised, so there was no real doubt of her mental health problems there. Would love to read your non-biased (i.e. a medical journal or similar, NOT a pro-life site) link backing up your claim that to obtain a post cut-off termination in the UK you need only wander in and tell the doctor you're suicidal.

*http://www.nhs.uk/conditions/Abortion/Pages/Introduction.aspx

I'm afraid you are wrong. Abortion is permitted in the UK at 24 weeks.

If you tell a GP you are suicidal he can easily arrange your abortion.

The Abortion Act 1967 states that provided a pregnancy has not exceeded its 24th week, an abortion may be carried out if:

• continuing with the pregnancy would involve a greater risk to the woman's life than ending the pregnancy
• continuing with the pregnancy would involve a greater risk of injury to the woman's physical or mental health than ending the pregnancy
• continuing with the pregnancy would involve a greater risk to the physical or mental health of any of the woman's existing children
• there is a significant risk that if the child is born s/he would have a serious physical or mental disability

The Act also makes it clear that two registered medical practitioners must both agree about the above points. In practice, this gives doctors a great degree of flexibility in referring women for abortions and supporting their request to proceed.
Read more about the Abortion Act 1967.

Brown Bomber

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Thanks, BB.

I don't like the idea of an abortion actually causing pain to a foetus any more than you do. However, what troubles me more is the issue of foetal pain being used by some on the more extreme end of the pro-life spectrum as a stepwise means to shut the door on all abortions beyond a particular point. As important as foetal pain maybe, it must be recognised that there will be situations where other factors, most importantly maternal health, can and will outweigh considerations like foetal pain.

And I'd largely agree here. However, when it is at the stage when the foetus may feel pain and the procedure is a gruesome one that would cause unimaginable suffering to anything that can feel pain and when these other factors aren't present that it becomes inexcusable. IMO

Brown Bomber

lazygal wrote: »

I have no interest in denying a procedure to all women because you think someone has an abortion at 24 weeks to go to Austrlia for a year.

Didn't ask you that though did I?

In the hypothethical example I provided would you be against abortion in this case?

oldrnwisr

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I'm afraid you are wrong. Abortion is permitted in the UK at 24 weeks.

If you tell a GP you are suicidal he can easily arrange your abortion.

The Abortion Act 1967 states that provided a pregnancy has not exceeded its 24th week, an abortion may be carried out if:

• continuing with the pregnancy would involve a greater risk to the woman's life than ending the pregnancy
• continuing with the pregnancy would involve a greater risk of injury to the woman's physical or mental health than ending the pregnancy
• continuing with the pregnancy would involve a greater risk to the physical or mental health of any of the woman's existing children
• there is a significant risk that if the child is born s/he would have a serious physical or mental disability

The Act also makes it clear that two registered medical practitioners must both agree about the above points. In practice, this gives doctors a great degree of flexibility in referring women for abortions and supporting their request to proceed.
Read more about the Abortion Act 1967.

That's not correct.

The legitimate grounds for abortion which expire at 24 weeks are C & D (C being the "suicide" clause i.e. risk to mental health of pregnant woman). The only grounds by which a woman who was pregnant could get an abortion on the grounds of suicidality after that point is if she could convince two medical practitioners that the "the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman" (Ground B - Section 1 (1)b of the Act).

Just saying she is suicidal would not be sufficient at that point, nor for the record, are any abortions conducted after 24 weeks, performed for reasons other than ground E.

Brown Bomber

oldrnwisr wrote: »

That's not correct.

The legitimate grounds for abortion which expire at 24 weeks are C & D (C being the "suicide" clause i.e. risk to mental health of pregnant woman). The only grounds by which a woman who was pregnant could get an abortion on the grounds of suicidality after that point is if she could convince two medical practitioners that the "the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman" (Ground B - Section 1 (1)b of the Act).

Just saying she is suicidal would not be sufficient at that point, nor for the record, are any abortions conducted after 24 weeks, performed for reasons other than ground E.

Okay, but I was talking of abortion at not after 24 weeks.

bumper234

Jernal wrote: »

He's posing a hypothetical though. You may argue it is an unfair hypothetical* but the point is you have to work within his constraints to actually answer the question. So, in the scenario that there is a very strong likelihood of the foetus experiencing extreme pain are you ok with an abortion being carried out? In my case the answer would be yes. I regard the life and experiences of the woman as being above that of the child.

The hypothetical is unfair or biased because it's only taking into the consideration the health of one individual.

Ok then in that case i will answer his hypothetical. Yes 100% If i had to choose between my partner dying or her having an abortion (even if it meant the fetus died in agony) i would not hesitate to agree to the abortion. Now since i have answered his hypothetical question he can answer mine.

A Homeless woman is raped, weeks later she confirms that she is pregnant and the father of the fetus is the rapist. She has been homeless for 2 years and it has been a struggle to feed herself. She has no access to family, No access to social welfare because she has no address and therefore CANNOT

(A) Travel to the UK

(B) Pay for the procedure in a clinic and also the cost of accommodation.

She also has a friend in Dublin (also homeless) who she would like to have near for support but also has no money.Would BB agree that the woman should have instant access to the medical facilities to bring about an abortion?

lazygal

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Didn't ask you that though did I?

In the hypothethical example I provided would you be against abortion in this case?

I don't care why someone wants an abortion. I don't want to know either. I don't believe in a hierarchicy of good or bad reasons for abortion.

kylith

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Okay, but I was talking of abortion at not after 24 weeks.

But do you honestly think that a woman would go through 6 months of pregnancy and then terminate so she can go on holiday, or some equally flighty reason?