Abortion/ Note Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

aloyisious · 08-07-2013 3:43pm

@BrownBomber: If the doctors in Galway Hospital had decided to agree with Savita's request for an abortion to save her life, would you object to that operation as much as you do about abortions in general?

Brown Bomber · 08-07-2013 3:49pm

bumper234 wrote: »

Ok then in that case i will answer his hypothetical. Yes 100% If i had to choose between my partner dying or her having an abortion (even if it meant the fetus died in agony) i would not hesitate to agree to the abortion. Now since i have answered his hypothetical question he can answer mine.

...

:pac: You STILL haven't answered the question - Never said anything about the mother dying.

oldrnwisr · 08-07-2013 3:50pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

Okay, but I was talking of abortion at not after 24 weeks.

My mistake.

I'm confused though. While abortions performed at 24 weeks, 0 days are acknowledged in the statistics (it mentions them as being grouped with the week 23 stats), there is no evidence to suggest that there are any abortions conducted in that rarefied window. Moreover, there's even less evidence to suggest that if there were any that they would be performed under ground C.

It's all well and good to present hypotheticals but this just seems like arguing for the sake of it. Its a hypothetical that even if borne out could not possibly be representative or indicative of anything.

Zombrex · 08-07-2013 3:51pm

lazygal wrote: »

I don't care why someone wants an abortion. I don't want to know either. I don't believe in a hierarchicy of good or bad reasons for abortion.

+1

It is like asking did you have a "good" reason for asking the person to stop having sex with you. It is utterly irrelevant to whether you have the right to refuse to continue having sex with someone.

The reason why you have an abortion is not relevant to the right to have an abortion. The right stems from the ownership of your own organs and body. You no more have to give a "good" reason for not consenting to someone else using them than you have to give a "good" reason for not having sex with some.

Brown Bomber · 08-07-2013 3:51pm

aloyisious wrote: »

@BrownBomber: If the doctors in Galway Hospital had decided to agree with Savita's request for an abortion to save her life, would you object to that operation as much as you do about abortions in general?

No. Not at all.

Brown Bomber · 08-07-2013 3:54pm

oldrnwisr wrote: »

My mistake.

I'm confused though. While abortions performed at 24 weeks, 0 days are acknowledged in the statistics (it mentions them as being grouped with the week 23 stats), there is no evidence to suggest that there are any abortions conducted in that rarefied window. Moreover, there's even less evidence to suggest that if there were any that they would be performed under ground C.

It's all well and good to present hypotheticals but this just seems like arguing for the sake of it. Its a hypothetical that even if borne out could not possibly be representative or indicative of anything.

There are no restrictions to a mother in the UK who decides in the 24th week to surgically abort her child due to real or pretend mental health issues.

Brown Bomber · 08-07-2013 3:56pm

kylith wrote: »

But do you honestly think that a woman would go through 6 months of pregnancy and then termiinate so she can go on holiday, or some equally flighty reason?

I don't believe a mother could stab her children to death but it happens.

So...could you answer the original question then?

lazygal · 08-07-2013 3:57pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

There are no restrictions to a mother in the UK who decides in the 24th week to surgically abort her child due to real or pretend mental health issues.

Is she still a mother post abortion, be it at 6 weeks or 24 weeks? I don't think a pregnant female is always a mother.

bumper234 · 08-07-2013 4:01pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

:pac: You STILL haven't answered the question - Never said anything about the mother dying.

Ahhhh nit picking ....... the standard go to excuse for a pro lifer to avoid answering questions. It's ok BB i fully expected you to avoid and deflect it's what you and your ilk do so well.

Turtwig · 08-07-2013 4:03pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I don't believe a mother could stab her children to death but it happens.

Indeed, but you are not arguing to restrict mothers the right of access to kitchen utensils. At least, I don't think you are.

kylith · 08-07-2013 4:05pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

I don't believe a mother could stab her children to death but it happens.

Do you then think that women having late-term abortions on a whim are enough of a problem to warrant a blanket ban?

So...could you answer the original question then?

Could you repeat it please, or give me a post number. I've gone back over our interaction but I genuinely can't see where you've asked me a question.

Mark Hamill · 08-07-2013 4:11pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

This one:

"Are you in possession of such a moral conflict? Do you think it is okay to take the life of an unborn child in a gruesome medical procedure that may cause unspeakable pain to the unborn child?"

So give the "unborn baby" anaesthetic. It wont feel a thing, problem solved.
Here is a question for you: Do you think it is okay to deny an abortion to a woman, even if the pregnancy will cause unspeakable pain to the woman?

Turtwig · 08-07-2013 4:19pm

bumper234 wrote: »

Ahhhh nit picking ....... the standard go to excuse for a pro lifer to avoid answering questions. It's ok BB i fully expected you to avoid and deflect it's what you and your ilk do so well.

Comments like this aren't really constructive. It may be convenient to assume all people who are pro-life behave the same way but that's like assuming all atheists share the same views as Stalin.

If BB wants to identify as a part of group then let him do so. Don't involuntarily put him into one though.

Thanks,

Brown Bomber · 08-07-2013 4:20pm

Jernal wrote: »

Indeed, but you are not arguing to restrict mothers the right of access to kitchen utensils. At least, I don't think you are.

The point is that incredulity is not an argument.

bumper234 · 08-07-2013 4:24pm

Jernal wrote: »

Comments like this aren't really constructive. It may be convenient to assume all people who are pro-life behave the same way but that's like assuming all atheists share the same views as Stalin.

If BB wants to identify as a part of group then let him do so. Don't involuntarily put him into one though.

Thanks,

I see what you mean but it's incredible how he INSIST on you answering a hypothetical question and when you do answer they say NAHHHHHHH not good enough. Then he goes on to deflect any questions and avoids answering. I know am not supposed to group him with others but again i go back to if it walks like a duck.........

Turtwig · 08-07-2013 4:25pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

The point is that incredulity is not an argument.

Yeah I got that but my point was should you restrict access to something for everyone just because a tiny minority use that access to cause harm. Let's quantify it. How many women do you think who get abortions get it so they can take a holiday or for some other flighty reason?
Would you say it's a greater or less proportion than those who use kitchen knifes to kill people?

Dades · 08-07-2013 4:28pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

The point is that incredulity is not an argument.

No, the point is that because some people abuse a system is not a reason to abandon that system.

You examine the system and make it harder for people to abuse it.

kylith · 08-07-2013 4:32pm

I just had a thought about this foetal pain argument. The link which BB supplied earlier stated

Your patient is now asleep on an operating room table with her legs in stirrups

meaning that the woman was anaesthetised.

This site states

The general anesthetics (nitrous oxide and volatile anesthetics) used for cesarean delivery cross the placenta and can cause neonatal depression*

Now, I know it's referencing C-sections but if an anesthetic is used to put the woman to sleep for a D&C there is no reason to think that the foetus would not also be anesthetised, meaning that foetal pain, if it's capable of feeling it, would range from 'dull' to 'totally numbed and asleep'.

So is there actually any reason to say that the foetus would feel any pain at all during a D&C?

* Depression in this context meaning sluggishness or unresponsiveness.

Sarky · 08-07-2013 4:37pm

That's a good point. Makes it harder to have an emotionally charged argument though, so I'm sure it won't be accepted by anyone opposed to abortion anyway.

krudler · 08-07-2013 4:39pm

From the Yoof Defence page, I'd love to think this is trolling but you'd never know:

At home looking at the Leinster final Dublin V Galway and thinking if this bill is passed (God for bid) how many of our gifted hurlers will be aborted. Keep Ireland PRO-LIFE.

Sarky · 08-07-2013 4:41pm

What the actual f*ck.

Turtwig · 08-07-2013 4:43pm

Meh at least they're considering a child's potential life after birth this time.

MagicMarker · 08-07-2013 4:45pm

Hurlers should be aborted, shíte game.

#controversial

aloyisious · 08-07-2013 4:46pm

Brown Bomber wrote: »

There are no restrictions to a mother in the UK who decides in the 24th week to surgically abort her child due to real or pretend mental health issues.

Well, if you mean that some woman might perform a home-abortion on herself, you've already pointed out that no matter what one does, one cannot overcome the mendacity of human beings, and the acts/deeds they will perform.

I don't know what the UK Doctors licensing Authority, the NHS or UK law lay's down as the limit's to which a doctor may go in dealing with a supposedly suicidal pregnant woman, in the case you lay out above, if said abortion requires a doctor. but I assume that there is at least guidelines laid down there like the Medical Council of Ireland have over here.

Sarky · 08-07-2013 4:46pm

Jernal wrote: »

Meh at least they're considering a child's potential life after birth this time.

More their potential entertainment value for armchair sports enthusiasts. Still a totally selfish viewpoint.

Wonder if we could get them to say the same about 'potential' all-star players for any of the 'foreign games'? I'm thinking it would be a struggle.

IT-Guy · 08-07-2013 4:49pm

krudler wrote: »

From the Yoof Defence page, I'd love to think this is trolling but you'd never know:

Always amazes me how they think this isn't currently the case though with thousands of Irish women taking a trip every year to the UK for a 'weekend away'. Head firmly in sand.

Tell the troll on the YD page one of those aborted foetuses could have been the next Fr. Brendan Smyth, that should set it off

eyescreamcone · 08-07-2013 4:49pm

Jernal wrote: »

Meh at least they're considering a child's potential life after birth this time.

But what if they grew up to be abortion Doctors???

If they were aborted before birth would others be saved in the future???

My head is wrecked from going round in circles.

aloyisious · 08-07-2013 4:51pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

Hurlers should be aborted, shíte game.

#controversial

Can I assume you're NOT a Dub, but maybe a Tribalist?

aloyisious · 08-07-2013 4:54pm

eyescreamcone wrote: »

But what if they grew up to be abortion Doctors???

If they were aborted before birth would others be saved???

My head is wrecked from going round in circles.

Ah come on. Don't stress yourself out, kneel by your bed tonight and ask himself upstairs to sort out things like that (glance's about for Jovial bolts)

Turtwig · 08-07-2013 4:55pm

MagicMarker wrote: »

Hurlers should be aborted, shíte game.

#controversial

No controversy is including bloody twitter hashtags in posts on boards!:mad:

Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

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Abortion/ Note Thread Closing Shortly! ! !