Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

MagicMarker

This is getting tedious.

Turtwig

eireannBEAR wrote: »

graphic dont look if you are sensitive

SNIP

do you really want this??

What exactly is this? For all I know it could be a twin who had to be severed from this sibling to save one life instead of both dying. In which case, no, in the ideal world I don't ever want that, but this isn't the ideal world. If it means one death versus two then all other things being equal I'll choose one death.

swampgas

eireannBEAR wrote: »

what??? you posted in response to me,no i dont have a point for you,sure you dont even know what i posted. how could i!!

You could describe what you posted (with a great big "don't look if you're squeamish" warning) using, you know, words. And maybe write a few more words about why you think what you posted is relevant.

swampgas

Brown Bomber wrote: »

ire

I'm not convinced that a foetus can receive it directly unless a caesarian is performed and you haven't shown why you think so either.

Nor am I convinced that you have shown anything to refute that a foetus can receive the required dose of anesthetic that would guarantee zero pain that doesn't endanger the mother. The surgery in the link is a "minimal invasive procedure" with tiny tools and was to remove 1cm of tissue. As well as this it's not clear what stage of development the lamb foetus was at.

I've read up a little on Dr Anand. He's a remarkable man, who like me thinks abortion should be dealt with on a case-by-case basis. When the medical consensus was that newborns weren't developed enough to feel pain and they were operated on without anesthetic it was he who proved otherwise. Now, thanks to him it would be considered "barbaric" to perform surgery on a newborn without an anesthetic.

When he says that a foetus cannot be sufficently anesethised to avoid the incredible pain he believes it is likely to feel without risking the health of the mother I am inclined to believe him in the absence of a compelling argument to the contrary.

So basically you have a hunch that there might be pain, this makes you feel uncomfortable, therefore abortion at a certain stage is always wrong, and this view should be imposed on everyone by law? That's what this sounds like, to be honest.

eireannBEAR

swampgas wrote: »

You could describe what you posted (with a great big "don't look if you're squeamish" warning) using, you know, words. And maybe write a few more words about why you think what you posted is relevant.

i wouldnt do it justice,so no i cant describe it. i will let you continue your debate.

but i will respond to replies from people who have viewed it.

swampgas

eireannBEAR wrote: »

i wouldnt do it justice,so no i cant describe it. i will let you continue your debate.

but i will respond to replies from people who have viewed it.

Fair enough.

Brown Bomber

swampgas wrote: »

So basically you have a hunch that there might be pain, this makes you feel uncomfortable, therefore abortion at a certain stage is always wrong, and this view should be imposed on everyone by law? That's what this sounds like, to be honest.

C'mon, in the post you've just quoted I clearly stated that I believe that resorting to abortion should be taken on a case-by-case basis.

Nor is it a "hunch" nor my own. Dr Anand is leading expert in his field and I as a layman with at best an average capacity for understanding such matters am at the mercy of such experts

swampgas

Brown Bomber wrote: »

C'mon, in the post you've just quoted I clearly stated that I believe that resorting to abortion should be taken on a case-by-case basis.

Nor is it a "hunch" nor my own. Dr Anand is leading expert in his field and I as a layman with at best an average capacity for understanding such matters am at the mercy of such experts

Okay, I may have misread that one. Apologies.

maguic24

eireannBEAR wrote: »

i wouldnt do it justice,so no i cant describe it. i will let you continue your debate.

but i will respond to replies from people who have viewed it.

Omg, I am shocked and horrified by that picture. I can't believe that's what happens to babies that are aborted. :O They don't survive! Wow, we certainly can't allow abortion ever! Even if the woman's life is in danger, I think the woman in question should be selfless and die with her baby!

Abortion is never the answer, choose life, but not the woman's life, if her life is in danger, let her die.

I see the light, thanks for opening my eyes Eireannbear. Before your post I was a selfish self centered pro-choice baby killer but now I finally see where you are coming from. Thanks

eireannBEAR

maguic24 wrote: »

Omg, I am shocked and horrified by that picture. I can't believe that's what happens to babies that are aborted. :O They don't survive! Wow, we certainly can't allow abortion ever! Even if the woman's life is in danger, I think the woman in question should be selfless and die with her baby!

Abortion is never the answer, choose life, but not the woman's life, if her life is in danger, let her die.

I see the light, thanks for opening my eyes Eireannbear. Before your post I was a selfish self centered pro-choice baby killer but now I finally see where you are coming from. Thanks

the woman should die with her baby where did you get that from????

why would you behave in such a defensive way about the image of a babies corpse? do i detect guilt maybe?

maguic24

eireannBEAR wrote: »

the woman should die with her baby where did you get that from????

So, you agree with abortion if the mothers life is in danger?

candy-gal1

Well thats the jist of most pro lifers isnt it?!

eireannBEAR

maguic24 wrote: »

So, you agree with abortion if the mothers life is in danger?

of course excluding the nonsensical suicide clause.

eireannBEAR

candy-gal1 wrote: »

Well that the jist of most pro lifers isnt it?!

lol and whats the gist of pro-choice ''its a parasite'' or its ''its a brainless clump of cells''....irony.

candy-gal1

eireannBEAR wrote: »

lol and what the gist of pro-choice ''its a parasite'' or its ''its a brainless clump of cells''....irony.

If thats a persons honest opinion on whats growing inside them/or could be then thats their own choice/opinion.
Id much rather that if they think that then they would be able to abort it if they chose, rather than keep it and hate it when its an actual human being and maybe even treat it like a parasite etc

Doctor Strange

eireannBEAR wrote: »

of course excluding the nonsensical suicide clause.

Oh, you mean that silly little clause THE EUROPEAN COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS wants enforced? Yeah, we can totally ignore that.

eireannBEAR

candy-gal1 wrote: »

If thats a persons honest opinion on whats growing inside them/or could be then thats their own choice/opinion.
Id much rather that if they think that then they would be able to abort it if they chose, rather than keep it and hate it when its an actual human being and maybe even treat it like a parasite etc

have you ever met a parent who ''hates'' their babies???

really now has a mother who as has an infant ever looked you in the eye and ever said i hate this baby??

when you have children you will understand. its a non issue could you imaging the percentage of parents that have this issue??

Zombrex

eireannBEAR wrote: »

why would you behave in such a defensive way about the image of a babies corpse? do i detect guilt maybe?

I think you are detecting sarcasm at the idea that if you just show pro-choice supporters a picture of blood they will instantly change their mind about abortion.

Which seems to speak more to your issues with blood than any argument against abortion. So what, you objection to abortion is that it that involves blood? If it didn't you would be ok with it?

Zombrex

eireannBEAR wrote: »

its a non issue could you imaging the percentage of parents that have this issue??

Surely that makes abortions a non-issue then?

So what is your problem?

eireannBEAR

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

Oh, you mean that silly little clause THE EUROPEAN COURT OF HUMAN RIGHTS wants enforced? Yeah, we can totally ignore that.

oh you mean the issue that the vast majority of psychiatrists and few medical studies on the issue deny that its not helpful but in fact harmful,do you mean that issue?? lolol

Doctor Strange

eireannBEAR wrote: »

oh you mean the issue that the vast majority of psychiatrists and few medical studies on the issue deny that its not helpful but in fact harmful,do you mean that issue?? lolol

Sources, please

candy-gal1

eireannBEAR wrote: »

have you ever met a parent who ''hates'' their babies???

really now has a mother who as has an infant ever looked you in the eye and ever said i hate this baby??

when you have children you will understand. its a non issue could you imaging the percentage of parents that have this issue??

No Ive never met a parent who came out and said "I hate my child" or something like that, but tbh after the child is born and theyve gone through the pregnancy/birth and mothering/looking after the child I seriously doubt anyone will say that, due to it being a tad too late now to do much about it, the catholic guilt aspect, what their own family may think etc

Btw I do hope and assume that anyone that gives birth and keeps a child does want it and will want it, if not then abortion should be brought in in that case imho if the mother doesnt want to give it up for adoption after giving birth to it. All children should be 100% wanted on giving birth to them, thats just me anyway!

eireannBEAR

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

Sources, please

i have published the sources before anytime i make a statement that i have already proven, i am not going to back and post the same links.

if you want to discredit my posts on that basis,then fine but please stop asking me to repeat links.

Doctor Strange

eireannBEAR wrote: »

i have published the sources before anytime i make a statement that i have already proven, i am not going to back and post the same links.

if you want to discredit my posts on that basis,then fine but please stop asking me to repeat links.

Could you please post them now, I do not wish to spend my evening sifting through your posts.

eireannBEAR

candy-gal1 wrote: »

No Ive never met a parent who came out and said "I hate my child" or something like that, but tbh after the child is born and theyve gone through the pregnancy/birth and mothering/looking after the child I seriously doubt anyone will say that, due to it being a tad too late now to do much about it, the catholic guilt aspect, what their own family may think etc

Btw I do hope and assume that anyone that gives birth and keeps a child does want it and will want it, if not then abortion should be brought in in that case imho if the mother doesnt want to give it up for adoption after giving birth to it. All children should be 100% wanted on giving birth to them, thats just me anyway!

women will be forced in to abortion by their parents or partners,this law is a crime against women.

eireannBEAR

Unforgettable _ Fire wrote: »

Could you please post them now, I do not wish to spend my evening sifting through your posts.

either do i?? just discredit my comments.

im not being smart but im sick of posting the same links, i posted a picture of a dead babies corpse and it brought one poster joy and amusement. the links wont change your opinion its fine.

candy-gal1

eireannBEAR wrote: »

women will be forced in to abortion by their parents or partners,this law is a crime against women.

Forgive me If Im wrong, but I dont think I said that tbh, no one should be forced to either have an abortion/give the baby up for adoption or keep the child by anyone, its the womans choice, the person whos carrying the cells/foetus/baby etc, they can discuss their options etc with their parents/partner of course, but the in the end the decision should lie just with her.

eireannBEAR

candy-gal1 wrote: »

Forgive me If Im wrong, but I dont think I said that tbh, no one should be forced to either have an abortion/give the baby up for adoption or keep the child by anyone, its the womans choice, the person whos carrying the cells/foetus/baby etc, they can discuss their options etc with their parents/partner of course, but the in the end the decision should lie just with her.

i never said you said that??

no one should be forced to abort a baby,but we all know its going to happen...and dont ask for a link either,lol

candy-gal1

eireannBEAR wrote: »

i never said you said that??

no one should be forced to abort a baby,but we all know its going to happen...and dont ask for a link either,lol

I wont

Ah, maybe that was my bad there, I assumed that was directed at my post as you said that underneath mine :)
I dont think being forced to abort a baby would happen really, if we brought in a rule there when/if abortion was ever legal here in Ireland of course, that the woman in question would have to be there of their own free will aka sit and wait on their own and be asked honestly did they want this and why.

Tbh though, yes you have a point there, it would possibly get abused if it was brought in but really most things brought in will be/are abused of in some way, its not a great situation, but why punish all just on a "what if" basis?! If something saves people who actually may need it, then maybe just set up a screening process or something for people to make sure they are not being forced into it! But really, abortion is as big as a decision as having a baby so I should hope most/all people know to make it their decision, no one elses!

shruikan2553

eireannBEAR wrote: »

i never said you said that??

no one should be forced to abort a baby,but we all know its going to happen...and dont ask for a link either,lol

But they should be forced to have the baby instead?

How many weeks into the pregnancy is the picture you linked from? It looks pretty far along, more than 24 weeks if I were to guess. Wasnt it already shown that less than 2% of abortions are after that stage? Was it even aborted? Could of been a still born.