Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Sin City

Zombrex wrote: »

But your argument is based on the idea that this zygote will have the potential to become a person but the sperm you masturbate away doesn't. But that is biologically false. Most zygotes do not have the potential to become a person, most are destroyed by the woman's body.

So what is the difference between a zygote with no potential to become a person and a sperm with no potential to become a person. Why do you value one over the other? Or don't value one instead of the other?

Again the reality is we don't know what potential any of these things have until they actually become a person. You might destroy the sperm that would have produced your son, or you might grant protection and rights to a zygote that the woman's body rejects without even thinking about it.

Even if we did value potential life we have no way of assessing what does or doesn't actually have potential.

I know what your trying to say but again.I would say that a pp is only viable when its fused with the egg , thats the begging.of the pp . if the female body destroys the zygote , then thats a natural death and ok . its the artificial termination that.i don't agree with

christmas2012

Anecdotal evidence is not good evidence in the slightest which is what I'm getting at. How about you support what you say with statistics or actual proper facts instead of personal experience.

so you discredit experience of one womans journey to get an abortion in england bc it doesnt sit with the pro aboritonists world view?

Squ

Why is there an abortion thread in the athiesm forum, and not say.. in the motors?

Hardly anyones elses business now is it?

Maybe an abortion forum would be more suitable.

fatmammycat

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Well, you are not sharing your personal experience are you? You are sharing your friend's personal experience to which you were a bystander (in a different room when the procedure was performed I may add).

Other women have shared their personal experiences and time and time again you have ignored them.


(why do I feel like I've written that post before? It's like groundhog posting in here at the moment.)

It's because you have written it before. She has no real argument so reverts to the One True Anecdote (OTA) time and time again.

fatmammycat

christmas2012 wrote: »

so you discredit experience of one womans journey to get an abortion in england bc it doesnt sit with the pro aboritonists world view?

No one is discrediting it, but her abortion is not representive of all abortions.

Bannasidhe

christmas2012 wrote: »

so you discredit experience of one womans journey to get an abortion in england bc it doesnt sit with the pro aboritonists world view?

I think you will find that people are discrediting your version of someone else's journey to get an abortion.

doctoremma

christmas2012 wrote: »

so you discredit experience of one womans journey to get an abortion in england bc it doesnt sit with the pro aboritonists world view?

Her experience is not being discredited. It is being remarked upon as physically unusual and used as a lesson to determine how to avoid such issues in future.

By far the easiest way to avoid such issues would have been for your friend to have an abortion in her home country, where she felt comfortable knowing doctors and procedures, where she didn't have arduous travels, where she felt looked after.

Bannasidhe

christmas2012 wrote: »

It is YOU who is LYING,even in abortion clinic ads on the net,they acknowledge risk of infection,this can later(if undectected develop into miscarriage later in life if woman finally decides she wants to get pregnant)..

Seriously, I have to administer an injection to myself every single night without fail or I will die. Before I administer said injection I have to wash my hands with an antibacterial soap and swab and sterilise which ever part of my pin-cushion for a body I am going to stick the needle in. Even taking these precautions there is still a risk of infection.

Should I stop administering my injections?

28064212

christmas2012 wrote: »

It is YOU who is LYING,even in abortion clinic ads on the net,they acknowledge risk of infection,this can later(if undectected develop into miscarriage later in life if woman finally decides she wants to get pregnant)..

EVEN in MATERNITY WARDS they WILL tell YOU about the risk of infection,this can later(if undectected develop into miscarriage later in life if woman finally decides she wants to get pregnant)

I have never said there is no risk of infection after an abortion. I have said there is no increase on the risk over the alternative of giving birth

Tipsygypsy

christmas2012 wrote: »

It is YOU who is LYING,even in abortion clinic ads on the net,they acknowledge risk of infection,this can later(if undectected develop into miscarriage later in life if woman finally decides she wants to get pregnant)..

infections do not, if undetected, 'develop' into miscarriages.

citations supplied for this FACT several times over last few pages.

Lingua Franca

christmas2012 wrote: »

so you discredit experience of one womans journey to get an abortion in england bc it doesnt sit with the pro aboritonists world view?

I'm personally discrediting it because it's coming from you. So far you have: accused other women of lying about their abortions, contradicted yourself many times, refused to answer any questions or look at any links, ignored all personal testimonies and links and evidence to keep pushing your agenda, you've had an agenda despite what you insist, you've said you don't have an opinion one way or another and that you don't judge when you very clearly do. Your use of "pro-abortionists" makes that plain. You have no credibility.

Frankly, I'm glad to see your posts here because they show what logic and reason is up against. Hysterical misinformed prejudice and complete inability to reason or debate.

Now, hurry up and pick which particular word of my post you'd like to focus on and demand evidence of, which you're going to ignore anyway. The rest of us would like to get on with the debate without reverting to the One True Anecdote yet again.

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

Then spill it doc emma ,what is your personal attitude towards abortion,i have been HONEST and OPEN about mine,no hidden agenda,no ulterior motives ,only to tell the truth of my experience of abortion and bc it doesnt sit well with you,there have been attempts to undermine and nit pick every word i have said,some even deny i have had those experiences and call me a liar,(are you going to call me a liar next,you know i wouldnt be suprised given the general attitude in here)and,some posters i notice have to go all out to undermine me.It still doesnt detract from what i have said.

Oh change the record, Wizard :rolleyes:

You've said very little and ignored a hell of a lot.

You've presented one dubious unpleasant experience and used it to dismiss all abortions.

You've undermined yourself repeatedly - one doesn't have to scrutinise your posts to see what's true and what's not.

insu1

christmas2012 wrote: »

so you discredit experience of one womans journey to get an abortion in england bc it doesnt sit with the pro aboritonists world view?

Maybe something like this for the UK ones :

"Here they are! This is my best guess at the top 10 abortion providers......."

http://www.jennyjerrome.com/pg_i_top10.html


would be the logical way help people avoid the ones providing a poor service ?

lazygal

christmas 2012, did you miss my post? I pointed out that childbirth, be it vaginal or c section is invasive. Its also pretty invasive to have a foreign body like a child growing inside you for 9 months, and even if a woman gives the baby up for adoption, she'll have invasive things like milk in her breasts, delayed menstruation due to hormones and a lot of emotional upheaval. As I said, I know women who got infections after perfectly straightforward vaginal deliveries or who needed episiotomies because of a larger baby, ie a doctor cuts you down below and stitches you up after. You can't urinate properly for weeks.


So please stop bleating on about the risks of abortion. Childbirth and pregnancy is NOT a risk free alternative.

old hippy

Btw, xmas, did you answer my question about how many clinics you were at?

"ive seen how some abortion clinics and transport agencies linked with abortion clinics operate and its sickening"

Bannasidhe

lazygal wrote: »

christmas 2012, did you miss my post? I pointed out that childbirth, be it vaginal or c section is invasive. Its also pretty invasive to have a foreign body like a child growing inside you for 9 months, and even if a woman gives the baby up for adoption, she'll have invasive things like milk in her breasts, delayed menstruation due to hormones and a lot of emotional upheaval. As I said, I know women who got infections after perfectly straightforward vaginal deliveries or who needed episiotomies because of a larger baby, ie a doctor cuts you down below and stitches you up after. You can't urinate properly for weeks.


So please stop bleating on about the risks of abortion. Childbirth and pregnancy is NOT a risk free alternative.

Don't forget to mention the iodine baths!

I had my son in the UK in the early 80s, No abortion involved - just good old fashioned split from stem to stern child birth, 27 stitches and a good risk of infection if not looked after. Add to that as I am O Neg and he is O Pos I had to have an Anti-D injection. If my son had been born in Ireland my chances of being infected with hepatitis from the Anti-D would have been extremely high.

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

abortion for all in the uk is what has irish girls in this pickle,abortion for all will not cure our ageing population issues,nor it will solve the root problem in a girls life casual,unprotected sex.

Yeah, it's just wall to wall abortions here. You can't move for all the clutter, mad abortionist doctors and fallen Irish lasses :rolleyes:

christmas2012

old hippy wrote: »

Btw, xmas, did you answer my question about how many clinics you were at?

"ive seen how some abortion clinics and transport agencies linked with abortion clinics operate and its sickening"

Ive seen the way they advertise their business in the yellow pages and online,obviously i havent been to EVERY clinic..

christmas2012

Frankly, I'm glad to see your posts here because they show what logic and reason is up against. Hysterical misinformed prejudice and complete inability to reason or debate.

No its not hysterical misinformed prejudice,risk of infection and later miscarraige can be a result of an invasive procedure like abortion,and..tell me exactly where did i excercise prejudice???

Ive said it before and i will say it again,i do not agree with abortion for all,however i would make concessions for lets say a suicidal rape victim or those carrying a pregnancy that is a risk to their life,or those bearing those who are incompatible with life etc..

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

Ive seen the way they advertise their business in the yellow pages and online,obviously i havent been to EVERY clinic..

But you said you've seen them and how they operate.

Looking in the yellow pages (let your fingers do the walking) and online isn't the same, is it?

So another case of emotive codswallop, mistruth or exaggeration, hmmm?

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

No its not hysterical misinformed prejudice,risk of infection and later miscarraige can be a result of an invasive procedure like abortion,and..tell me exactly where did i excercise prejudice???

:D:D:D

insu1

christmas2012 wrote: »

Ive seen the way they advertise their business in the yellow pages and online,obviously i havent been to EVERY clinic..

How many have you been to ?

christmas2012

ONE FOR GOD SAKE.

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

ONE FOR GOD SAKE.

Don't bring him into the argument, ffs.

I dunno, people using their horribly invasive non existent deities to get their "point across". Grrr.

lazygal

christmas2012 wrote: »

No its not hysterical misinformed prejudice,risk of infection and later miscarraige can be a result of an invasive procedure like abortion

So can having a baby in a normal vaginal delivery or c section. Will you ever address my points in my post above?

robindch

More ranty posts deleted. Calm down please.

Tipsygypsy

I've just read that there is a pro-choice march thing being organised for the Sept 29th in Dublin - I don't know if Im allowed to post the link to the details here? Anyway, further to this whole conversation, I'll be going.

hattoncracker

christmas2012 wrote: »

one who appears to have had a torrid but thankfully unusual time of it.

UNUSUAL..???You should read more womens stories of abortion then,its an invasive procedure with pain involved and not just emotional pain either,women who tend to say it was a positive experience obviously never experienced abortion.
.

Say WHAT now?!

My experience was positive, so am I lying?

hattoncracker

Also Christmas, I think a lot of women do not take the pain of the procedure into consideration when making this decision. That was way down my list, because the alternative was worse.

The pain is not something I really would have worried about mainly because if the thought of pregnancy is that bad, a little pain for a while doesn't come into it.

Bannasidhe

christmas2012 wrote: »

Ive seen the way they advertise their business in the yellow pages and online,obviously i havent been to EVERY clinic..

You are basing your opinion that all clinics are run like the one you took your friend to on ads in the phone book and on-line and you wonder why people have an issue with your credibility?