Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Lingua Franca

robp wrote: »

The raft of medical conditions listed by lingua franca do not require abortion for treatment.

You mean that raft of medical conditions I lifted directly from a paper called Scientific ethics of therapeutic abortion? The one that says "Therapeutic abortion is proposed when a pregnancy threatens a woman's life and the fetus is not viable ex utero. As the intention is not to kill the fetus, this action should be named "therapeutic interruption of pregnancy". However, in some cases the fetus directly hampers the mother's health. Thus, the removal of the cause of the disease coincides with killing the fetus."

Aye!

You have misquoted me for the purpose of mocking me.

Dammit, I thought I was being subtle.

Instead of backing up your false claims your resorting to satirising me. It looks like its almost time to rest my case.

I am satirising you because despite many, many posts and links by many posters in this thread backing up our "false" claims you have yet to answer a single question put to you by anyone or back up a single one of your absolutist statements with a link. To be honest, I don't even need to satirise you. You don't have a case to rest.

28064212

robp wrote: »

28064212,
yes, a legal inconsistency. That is what I tried to stress previously.

No you didn't. In fact, you said the exact opposite:

robp wrote: »

Irish doctors would be breaking Irish law if they denied it to her.

Irish doctors would be breaking Irish law if they provided her with an abortion

robp wrote: »

Yet, in current medical science it is purely an elective procedure.

A "fact" which you have provided no evidence whatsoever to back up.

True or false: an ectopic pregnancy can kill a mother if the foetus is not terminated

oldrnwisr

robp wrote: »

If my posts came across as emotive that certainly was a mistake but one I don't do often. I appreciate the input of evidence in your post which is usually absent in these debates. Clearly its a point of view but in no way does does it translate into abortion being medically essential. That was never a false claim. My first post was incorrectly absolute but its certainly a relevant comment for the thread! I am baffled by how it could be otherwise.

So far no response so far has indicated the medical necessity. Lingua Franca earlier listed a raft of medical conditions but no examples of where these conditions were not properly treated in Ireland. I would geniuly be interested to find some examples. Elsewhere the case of Michelle Harte is brought up as a example but an expert group including doctors in Cork's CUH decided it wasn't so its a weak claim!

OK, first of all, my comment regarding emotive was not targeting you specifically but rather at the type of stock pro-life argument which you espoused, namely the adverse psychological effects of abortion. Many of the arguments which are routinely and repeatedly proposed by pro-life groups rest on logical fallacies such as the appeal to emotion, specifically the appeal to fear. Examples of such claims include adverse psychological consequences of abortion, risk of breast cancer, infertility and of course, my personal favourite, Ireland without abortion is the safest country in the world. All of these claims are demonstrably false and offer nothing more than scaremongering.

Now back to your claim. The claim that abortion is medically unnecessary is false.

And here's why.

Firstly, let's look at stories.

The All-Party Oireachtas Committee on the Constitution - Fifth Progress Report

Some excerpts from the expert testimony:

Dr. Sean Daly - Master of the Coombe Women's Hospital

"I think that if we go down the road of trying to slice up the
term ‘abortion’, then we are only going to complicate things
for ourselves even more. At the end of the day, we do need
to be able to practise and if this committee, and ultimately if
the country or however it is constructed, decides that there is
never an indication for abortion or for the premature ending
of a pregnancy, then I certainly believe that is going to make
if difficult to practise in the current environment in which we
practise."


Dr. Declan Keane - Master of the National Maternity Hospital

"HELLP syndrome, which is a variant of pre-eclamptic
toxaemia, a condition where the mother has severe hypertension
where the liver is involved … We had a case in 1998,
as I say, where the woman was severely ill with this
condition. She was transferred to a neighbouring general
hospital under the care of the liver specialist and the medical
opinion that we got from the liver specialist was that this
woman was going to die if her pregnancy did not end. It was
a very difficult decision to make. We obviously had to not
only talk at length with the parents involved but with our
legal team as well. But there was no other way in which this
woman would have lived if the pregnancy had continued.
Continuing his evidence Dr Keane referred to another rare condition:

I note that the Green Paper and indeed the submissions have
talked about other possible indications which would include
severe cardiac disease in pregnancy and Eisenmenger’s
syndrome has been mentioned. The Coombe Hospital had a
woman who died from Eisenmenger’s syndrome only last year
and I suspect that the master of the Coombe may wish to
make a comment on that later on. Certainly in my experience
in Oxford we unfortunately again had to terminate two
pregnancies in women with Eisenmenger’s syndrome because
the real risks to the woman, if the pregnancy had continued,
were considerable."

Professor John Bonnar - Trinity College Dublin

"In current obstetrical practice rare complications can arise where therapeutic intervention is required at a stage in pregnancy when there will be little or no prospect for the survival of the baby, due to extreme immaturity. In these exceptional situations failure to intervene may result in the death of both mother and baby. We consider that there is a fundamental difference between abortion carried out with the intention of taking the life of the baby, for example for social reasons, and the unavoidable death of the baby resulting from essential treatment to protect the life of the mother."


Now, let's look at statistics.

In 2010 in the UK, there were 196,109 abortions performed. Of this figure 6535 were performed on non-residents and 189,574 on residents.

The reasons given for abortions were outlined in the following categories:

A the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk to the life of the pregnant woman greater than if the pregnancy were terminated (Abortion Act, 1967 as amended, section 1(1)(c))

B the termination is necessary to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman (section 1(1)(b))

C the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant woman (section 1(1)(a))

D the pregnancy has not exceeded its twenty-fourth week and that the continuance of the pregnancy would involve risk, greater than if the pregnancy were terminated, of injury to the physical or mental health of any existing children of the family of the pregnant woman (section 1(1)(a))

E there is a substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped (section 1(1)(d))

F to save the life of the pregnant woman (section 1(4))

G to prevent grave permanent injury to the physical or mental health of the pregnant
woman (section 1(4))

Now, categories F-G are emergency situations and not covered by the statute above. The figures for abortions performed according to those categories are:

A&B - 358
C - 185,921
D - 1,635
E - 2,290

This accounts for 100% of the abortions performed on UK residents.

Abortion Statistics: England and Wales 2010

While the numbers of medically necessary abortions may be in a minority, this does not detract from their essential nature.


Now, leaving aside the actual necessity of abortion, this doesn't solve the current problem which has generated this thread. Whether or not abortion is necessary under certain circumstances does not have any bearing on whether abortion services should be available. As I said previously, there is a rights balance issue to be debated here as well as a larger social health issue (i.e. abortion in cases where rape, suicide etc. become issues). Finally, let's not forget that the reason we're even having this debate now is because of indolence on the part of the government in not legislating for something which they're constitutionally required to do (something which 28064212 has covered extensively in this and other abortion threads).

robp

28064212 wrote: »

No you didn't. In fact, you said the exact opposite:

Irish doctors would be breaking Irish law if they provided her with an abortion


A "fact" which you have provided no evidence whatsoever to back up.

True or false: an ectopic pregnancy can kill a mother if the foetus is not terminated

Well the argument is using a false pretence that the termination is necessary in the first place.
Ectopic pregnancy is treated in Irish hospitals under the principle of double jeopardy. Read Professor John Bonnar quote in oldrnwisr's post. In Ectopic pregnancy there is no possibility of survival of the unborn while the mother's life is in danger. The methodology is different to a typical surgical abortion. If you think their all shipped of to the UK your way of the mark.

oldrnwisr,
Your providing more substantial evidence so I will have a look at that but I would appreciate if you lay off the generalisations you admitted to. There is serious issues with how they gather these statistics but I will give it a fair read.

28064212

robp wrote: »

Well the argument is using a false pretence that the termination is necessary in the first place.

? Of course a termination (in some cases) is necessary. An ectopic pregnancy can kill the mother unless the pregnancy is terminated

robp wrote: »

The methodology is different to a typical surgical abortion

Medical abortion accounts for half of all abortions performed in the UK (source)

robp

28064212 wrote: »

? Of course a termination (in some cases) is necessary. An ectopic pregnancy can kill the mother unless the pregnancy is terminated


Medical abortion accounts for half of all abortions performed in the UK (source)

The point is, its not considered abortion and its regular in Irish hospitals. Removing a pregnancy outside the uterus is quite different to removing one inside the uterus.
Basically your asking me to trust you an anonymous poster over the Professor of Obstetrics and Gynaecology in TUD John Bonnar, as quoted earlier by oldrnwisr.

28064212

robp wrote: »

The point is, its not considered abortion and its regular in Irish hospitals. Removing a pregnancy outside the uterus is quite different to removing one inside the uterus.
Basically your asking me to trust you an anonymous poster over the Professor of Obstetrics and Gynaecology in TUD John Bonnar, as quoted earlier by oldrnwisr.

In typical Irish fashion, it's, at best, a legal grey area. What would you define as an abortion?

swampgas

Abortion Clinic to open in NI, but only for medical abortions up to 9 weeks.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1010/breaking57.html

NI have had the same approach as Ireland to abortion - force the women to travel to GB, and seem to have similar legal ambiguity.

Obliq

swampgas wrote: »

Abortion Clinic to open in NI, but only for medical abortions up to 9 weeks.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1010/breaking57.html

NI have had the same approach as Ireland to abortion - force the women to travel to GB, and seem to have similar legal ambiguity.

Just heard it this morning on radio - excellent! However, it'd better be a big clinic and ready to cater for Southeren Irish women too.

"Marie Stopes Northern Ireland, based in purpose-built city centre premises on Great Victoria Street, will offer contraceptive options, HIV testing, STI testing and treatment, ultrasound scanning, and medical abortion up to nine weeks gestation.

Anyone over the age of 16 can access the centre, including people from the Republic, and services are available by appointment only. Marie Stopes International, which is a not-for-profit organisation, is the UK’s leading provider of sexual and reproductive healthcare services. It has been established for over 30 years, and works in 42 countries around the world."
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/1010/breaking57.html

seamus

It'll only provide abortion up to nine weeks gestation, so late term abortions for unviable foetuses will still require women to travel. But it's absolutely better than nothing.

One NI politician was claiming that there is "no demand" for it. I predict this being one of the busiest abortion clinics on the entire planet, being one clinic to cater for 3 million women.

Obliq

seamus wrote: »

It'll only provide abortion up to nine weeks gestation, so late term abortions for unviable foetuses will still require women to travel. But it's absolutely better than nothing.

One NI politician was claiming that there is "no demand" for it. I predict this being one of the busiest abortion clinics on the entire planet, being one clinic to cater for 3 million women.

Agreed. And probably the most heavily picketed. I predict a need for walkers to assist women even entering the building. Sign me up

OldNotWIse

seamus wrote: »

It'll only provide abortion up to nine weeks gestation, so late term abortions for unviable foetuses will still require women to travel. But it's absolutely better than nothing.

One NI politician was claiming that there is "no demand" for it. I predict this being one of the busiest abortion clinics on the entire planet, being one clinic to cater for 3 million women.

We're not all going to use it you know....

Genghiz Cohen

OldNotWIse wrote: »

We're not all going to use it you know....

/Learned something

Stark

OldNotWIse wrote: »

We're not all going to use it you know....

That's not what a pro-lifer I was talking to was telling me. There'll be no more babies in Northern Ireland after this.

lazygal

Stark wrote: »

OldNotWIse wrote: »

We're not all going to use it you know....

That's not what a pro-lifer I was talking to was telling me. There'll be no more babies in Northern Ireland after this.

Did Europe not kill them all already?

OldNotWIse

Genghiz Cohen wrote: »

/Learned something

Though I suppose if women are going to travel for an abortion anyway, then it's better they dont have to travel as far. I mean, I'm pro-life but if a woman is going to have an abortion anyway, I dont see the point in forcing her to travel. It's a little Irish/ostrich syndromey to just force a woman to travel, and whereas I dont like the idea of abortion, I think it's childish to expect a woman who is already probably in turmoil to have her head melted even further by having to find money for flights etc, when her mind is already made up.

I actually hope the clinic is not picketed tbh - if someone has already made up her mine, all a protester is going to do is annoy at best and upset and intimidate at worst, but at that stage it will not change her mind, so its a waste of everybody's time. But I suspect it probably will be, at least in the early days

loveisdivine

This is one of the most hilarious things I've ever read about abortion and why its "evil". A quote from a comment on the Youth Defence facebook page.

I heard a professor say one time that we are probably killing the person who would grow up and find the cure for cancer. And have you noticed that very few playwrights or music is being written ? Where are the Rodgers and hammer steins? All the others? They have to redo old shows , plays, and musicals. The only exception is Andrew Lloyd Weber. Nothing new is being written.

The Mad Hatter

loveisdivine wrote: »

This is one of the most hilarious things I've ever read about abortion and why its "evil". A quote from a comment on the Youth Defence facebook page.

I heard a professor say one time that we are probably killing the person who would grow up and find the cure for cancer. And have you noticed that very few playwrights or music is being written ? Where are the Rodgers and hammer steins? All the others? They have to redo old shows , plays, and musicals. The only exception is Andrew Lloyd Weber. Nothing new is being written.

That really is impressively stupid.

iguana

I guess we can all just thank God that nobody aborted Vince Gilligan.

Stark

But imagine if someone had aborted Hitler as a foetus?

IT-Guy

loveisdivine wrote: »

This is one of the most hilarious things I've ever read about abortion and why its "evil". A quote from a comment on the Youth Defence facebook page.

Smacks of "things were way better yesteryear". As for "nothing new being written", it's myopic to claim nothing new is being written and ignore the thousands of bands, artists and acts simply because they don't write musicals. Where have we seen this kind of thinking before?

efb

@YourRTEGuide: RTÉ Two 22:00 Celebrity Body Swap: Ronan Mullen becomes a pregnant rape victim for a week and then shuts the fcuk up about abortion forever

IT-Guy

Stark wrote: »

But imagine if someone had aborted Hitler as a foetus?

Wouldn't it have been great! Perhaps an entire war avoided, millions of lives saved and the slaughter/near extermination of the Jewish people prevented. It's a shame the obvious corollary to that redundant argument quoted by lovisdivine needs to be stated but just in case anyone from YD (or indeed first year philosophy students of a religious bent ) are reading, there ya go

Nodin

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

That really is impressively stupid.

What I want to know is why was Webber missed? There should be an inquiry.

Sulla Felix

Stark wrote: »

But imagine if someone had aborted Hitler as a foetus?

Wouldn't even have need to be aborted. Imagine if his paternal grandfather had never recognised Hitlers father as son. I just cannot see the Nuremburg rally being so powerful with people shouting Heil Schicklgruber! Heil Schicklgruber!

Galvasean

seamus wrote: »

One NI politician was claiming that there is "no demand" for it. I predict this being one of the busiest abortion clinics on the entire planet, being one clinic to cater for 3 million women.

Spent much of the day driving around in a van with the radio on. Was it just bad luck/timing or did all the news reports on this only allot time to the 'po-life' side of the debate? I didn't hear a single 'pro-choice' voice on the radio today myself. Anyone else hear any?
It struck me since there was so little media coverage of that recent large 'pro-choice' rally in Dublin but newspapers always seem to cover 'pro-life' protests with gusto.

Hotblack Desiato

Galvasean wrote: »

'po-life'

I like that Freudian slip

Obliq

Galvasean wrote: »

Spent much of the day driving around in a van with the radio on. Was it just bad luck/timing or did all the news reports on this only allot time to the 'po-life' side of the debate? I didn't hear a single 'pro-choice' voice on the radio today myself. Anyone else hear any?
It struck me since there was so little media coverage of that recent large 'pro-choice' rally in Dublin but newspapers always seem to cover 'pro-life' protests with gusto.

Wouldn't surprise me if they had little pro-choice coverage again. Wasn't listening to the other programmes, but morning Ireland had someone from Marie Stopes and the Pat Kenny show had Sinead Ahern (I think) going up against the loathsome Ronan Mullen. Poor girl. She did well, and you could even hear her sometimes. Pat Kenny has gone up in my esteem though, because he had a bit of a say about it being government's job to legislate and how the people have already spoken on the issue, twice.

Pretty sure the **** hit the fan elsewhere though, especially newstalk (?) is my guess. Every time I listen to that show I get a gut ache and a desire to *%^$£*~# up something bigger than me.

Delirium

Galvasean wrote: »

Spent much of the day driving around in a van with the radio on. Was it just bad luck/timing or did all the news reports on this only allot time to the 'po-life' side of the debate? I didn't hear a single 'pro-choice' voice on the radio today myself. Anyone else hear any?
It struck me since there was so little media coverage of that recent large 'pro-choice' rally in Dublin but newspapers always seem to cover 'pro-life' protests with gusto.

Not on Newstalk they didn't. Ronan Mullen was given 10-15 minutes to soapbox. It was on the George Hook show. Pretty much nothing was challenged. He was allowed to claim that the Irish people rejected abortion every time it was put to them. And the mental health misinformation got some airtime too.

There was no voice for pro-choice, be it in studio, over the phone or by text/email/tweet etc. Was a thoroughly depressing and frustrating segment of the programme.

PopePalpatine

Ronan Mullen's voice is that shrill bogger accent that makes me want to punch kittens.