Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Obliq

Jaysus, someone needs to do an in depth study of relative airtime for pro/anti choice. Think I know the fella too.
It would depress you though eh? :mad:

pauldla

Stark wrote: »

But imagine if someone had aborted Hitler as a foetus?

It could be that dozens, or maybe hundreds, of potential Hitlers, Stalins or Idi Amins have been aborted. Not exactly the pro-choice argument I'd make, though.

Obliq

Good article in the Irish Times: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1012/1224325186976.html

Corkfeen

Galvasean wrote: »

seamus wrote: »

One NI politician was claiming that there is "no demand" for it. I predict this being one of the busiest abortion clinics on the entire planet, being one clinic to cater for 3 million women.

Spent much of the day driving around in a van with the radio on. Was it just bad luck/timing or did all the news reports on this only allot time to the 'po-life' side of the debate? I didn't hear a single 'pro-choice' voice on the radio today myself. Anyone else hear any?
It struck me since there was so little media coverage of that recent large 'pro-choice' rally in Dublin but newspapers always seem to cover 'pro-life' protests with gusto.

Ray Darcy had a pro choice discussion about it from excerpt I heard of it.

mewso

koth wrote: »

Not on Newstalk they didn't. Ronan Mullen was given 10-15 minutes to soapbox. It was on the George Hook show. Pretty much nothing was challenged. He was allowed to claim that the Irish people rejected abortion every time it was put to them. And the mental health misinformation got some airtime too.

There was no voice for pro-choice, be it in studio, over the phone or by text/email/tweet etc. Was a thoroughly depressing and frustrating segment of the programme.

Hook is a disaster though. He has looney guy Graham on from the states and obviously considers himself best suited to taking the opposite side but fails miserably every time. Makes for regular frustration.

Obliq

mewso wrote: »

Hook is a disaster though. He has looney guy Graham on from the states and obviously considers himself best suited to taking the opposite side but fails miserably every time. Makes for regular frustration.

Just listened back to it. George went on to say (after wondering "who better than Ronan Mullen to get on to talk about it") that his personal view is that he is opposed to abortion. George has spoken, therefore George is right. According to George. Ronan and George pontificating from 11.45min to 22.55min into programme, NO alternative viewpoints given.

OldNotWIse

pauldla wrote: »

It could be that dozens, or maybe hundreds, of potential Hitlers, Stalins or Idi Amins have been aborted. Not exactly the pro-choice argument I'd make, though.

Imagine if Marie Stopes had been aborted as a foetus?

Edit: not intended as an argument either way! I'm just in a giddy mood - sorry

The Mad Hatter

pauldla wrote: »

It could be that dozens, or maybe hundreds, of potential Hitlers, Stalins or Idi Amins have been aborted. Not exactly the pro-choice argument I'd make, though.

It's in no way a good argument, but it's the perfect response to the equally bad "but what if you aborted Beethoven?" argument.

Obliq

Galvasean wrote: »

Spent much of the day driving around in a van with the radio on. Was it just bad luck/timing or did all the news reports on this only allot time to the 'po-life' side of the debate? I didn't hear a single 'pro-choice' voice on the radio today myself. Anyone else hear any?
It struck me since there was so little media coverage of that recent large 'pro-choice' rally in Dublin but newspapers always seem to cover 'pro-life' protests with gusto.

Colm Hayes on 2fm had quite a supportive slot in the programme. Two callers, one pro-choice, one anti-choice(who came across as only being anti-choice because that's what she would do). 6 pro-choice messages read out v 1 anti-choice (to finish the item), and a fella on from Cork who'd been at a mass with that woman who spoke about her abortion/killing children/her special-needs child being a punishment from god. He was horrified at the fact he was given no warning in advance and his 8yr old daughter was there. It was in fact a children's mass. Quite a good show all round.

PopePalpatine

Obliq wrote: »

Just listened back to it. George went on to say (after wondering "who better than Ronan Mullen to get on to talk about it") that his personal view is that he is opposed to abortion. George has spoken, therefore George is right. According to George. Ronan and George pontificating from 11.45min to 22.55min into programme, NO alternative viewpoints given.

What next, Michelle Bachmann discussing evolution? :pac:

Nodin

Obliq wrote: »

Just listened back to it. George went on to say (after wondering "who better than Ronan Mullen to get on to talk about it") ...........

My cat/sisters dog/nearly anyone on this forum

keane2097

Anyone listening to George Hook instead of Matt Cooper deserves everything they get.

robp

28064212 wrote: »

In typical Irish fashion, it's, at best, a legal grey area. What would you define as an abortion?

Its not up to me to define it. It would be wise to use the words of the Professor of Obstetrics in TCD John Bonnar.

When we talk about termination or legal abortion, we are talking about intervening in that situation with the direct intention of taking the life of the foetus or unborn. That is what we mean by procured abortion. We do not talk about a doctor dealing with a mother with severe pre-eclampsia as procuring abortion, or dealing with an ectopic pregnancy as procuring abortion, or dealing with cancer of the cervix as procuring
abortion.

Others have used the term "therapeutic interruption of pregnancy" for this medical treatment. This occurs in Ireland. Clearly the definitions are not simple but if you don't understand the difference we shouldn't pretend to know. Direct abortion or whatever term is your preferential term is an elective procure. The Dublin declaration on maternal health proves this point, as does the OIREACHTAS Fifth Progress Report Abortion.

The collection of statistics in this area is not transparent in Ireland or the UK. Yet, its possible to see this practice is extremely rarely needed and probably accounts for no more than 0.2% of ended pregnancies in the UK.

There is persistent fable that Irish women are endangered by Irish practise. My posts have show beyond doubt this is untrue. The pro-choice side have a vested interest in conflating the issue to sway public opinion, sadly this is exactly what happens.

Obliq

robp wrote: »

The pro-choice side have a vested interest in conflating the issue to sway public opinion, sadly this is exactly what happens.

Let me tell you that my vested interest is in high-lighting the shameful practice of shipping out 12 women every day, that's 4,000 per year, to GB for a procedure (whether you like it or not) that is necessary to each and every one of those women, at that point in time - all the while the likes of you pretending that abortion doesn't happen here and isn't necessary? It's necessary for them, when they have decided they can't go on with a pregnancy. End. Of. Story. (and end of story for the fetus/baby, yes - well HOLY GOD STRIKE ME DOWN - What? No kabooom? No lightening? I'm still here?)

It happens to women here, but they have to go abroad for the procedure (Yes, of killing the fetus/baby - whatever the hell you want to call it). I don't need to sway public opinion at all, those facts speak for themselves, and I'm sick of telling everyone what my morals are and where they come from. If you don't like my choices, you know where you can stick them eh?

pauldla

And further to Obliq's post, if you don't like my choices, well, great, you don't have to like them. Maybe I don't like them myself, but I'm the one who gets to make them, and I'm the one who has to live with them. But, and here's the important bit, it's my choice to make.

Obliq

Gets my back up so much when people push their morality like it's the only one that's valid. And make assumptions about my motives for being pro-choice. Gotta get off boards, getting a headache. Pauldla, you're a star :cool:

robp

Obliq wrote: »

Let me tell you that my vested interest is in high-lighting the shameful practice of shipping out 12 women every day, that's 4,000 per year, to GB for a procedure (whether you like it or not) that is necessary to each and every one of those women, at that point in time - all the while the likes of you pretending that abortion doesn't happen here and isn't necessary? It's necessary for them, when they have decided they can't go on with a pregnancy. End. Of. Story. (and end of story for the fetus/baby, yes - well HOLY GOD STRIKE ME DOWN - What? No kabooom? No lightening? I'm still here?)

It happens to women here, but they have to go abroad for the procedure (Yes, of killing the fetus/baby - whatever the hell you want to call it). I don't need to sway public opinion at all, those facts speak for themselves, and I'm sick of telling everyone what my morals are and where they come from. If you don't like my choices, you know where you can stick them eh?

The flaw in your post and all pro-choice absolutists is that there is nothing magical about passing through the birth canal that transforms it from a fetus into a person. Human life is a continuum of development. All the literature support this.

There is a consensus amongst all pro-choice parties that abortion is the last resort. It would be far better to avoid them in first place. Every major group agrees on this. The best way to do that is contestable. Yet, amongst Irish women the procedure is 4 times less* common than the England and Wales. Clearly we are doing something right.

*Abortions from ONS and Department of Health (UK); female population aged 15-44 from CSO,
(population at April of each years) unwed births and other data from CSO.

pauldla

'pro-choice absolutists'? What class of beast is that...?

Bannasidhe

pauldla wrote: »

'pro-choice absolutists'? What class of beast is that...?

The ones that say a woman's right to control of her own body is absolute?

Sulla Felix

robp wrote: »

The flaw in your post and all pro-choice absolutists is that there is nothing magical about passing through the birth canal that transforms it from a fetus into a person. Human life is a continuum of development. All the literature support this.

There is a consensus amongst all pro-choice parties that abortion is the last resort. It would be far better to avoid them in first place. Every major group agrees on this. The best way to do that is contestable. Yet, amongst Irish women the procedure is 4 times less* common than the England and Wales. Clearly we are doing something right.

*Abortions from ONS and Department of Health (UK); female population aged 15-44 from CSO,
(population at April of each years) unwed births and other data from CSO.

The law says differently. To take a horrific example, if a pregnant woman is beaten and suffers a miscarriage, the offender is charged with GBH and assault not manslaughter or murder.

Bannasidhe

Sulla Felix wrote: »

The law says differently. To take a horrific example, if a pregnant woman is beaten and suffers a miscarriage, the offender is charged with GBH and assault not manslaughter or murder.

Indeed, if our existence starts at the moment of conception - why d we officially not exist until the moment of out birth?

Should we be celebrating our birthdays - i.e arrival in the world -nine months earlier than we do?

robp

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Indeed, if our existence starts at the moment of conception - why d we officially not exist until the moment of out birth?

Should we be celebrating our birthdays - i.e arrival in the world -nine months earlier than we do?

Is your knowledge of our biology determined by old fashioned customs like birthdays? The reason for this is a combination of medieval biology and pragmatism. In the east newborns are considered 1 year old.

Nonetheless, both east and west style traditions are historical customs of minor significance.

pauldla

robp wrote: »

Is your knowledge of our biology determined by old fashioned customs like birthdays? In the east newborns are considered 1 year old.

Nonetheless, both east and west style traditions are historical customs of minor significance.

Indeed. The Chinese also maintain that a pregnancy is ten months, not nine. 40 weeks, after all.

Now, Robp, please enlighten me: what is a pro-choice absolutist? I don't understand the term.

Bannasidhe

robp wrote: »

Is your knowledge of our biology determined by old fashioned customs like birthdays? The reason for this is a combination of medieval biology and pragmatism. In the east newborns are considered 1 year old.

Nonetheless, both east and west style traditions are historical customs of minor significance.

Of course it is.
I'm up there with believing all sorts of nonsense.*



*May be a lie.

SimeonsDad

So i came across this thread and I find it interesting that (I think its fair to say) none of the posts are from people who have been through an Abortion or speaking from any kind of experience.My reason for bringing this up is for the simple fact that its easy to say it Should be allowed or Ban it all together when you dont take the consequences into account.For anyone who has been faced with the option of termination it is a huge moral decision to make and to live with for the rest of their days some of which can be quite short due to guilt etc..(not all of course).I speak from my own experience as a parent who was given termination as an option for our own unborn child as he had an extreme Heart defect, which was diagnosed at week 23. He only had 2 chambers in his heart instead of 4 and his arteries were very small, as a result it meant he would only have survived for a short time after birth without intervention. From the moment we heard this we were faced with a few choices 1)Compassionate Care (2) Termination (3) Multiple Surgeries - if at all possible.So after some very emotional and mental torture we decided that we wanted to opt for surgery if it became possible and if not we were going to take the Compassionate care route.So with this bad news we were mourning the loss of our child before he was even born and every day leading up to his delivery date.Even at our last scan we were told that it didnt look like surgery would be possible and when it came close to the due date we packed up our funeral clothes and headed for the hospital.So he was born and after some brief moments with us he was rushed off to Crumlin Hospital and about 8 hours later we were told he just managed to qualify for Surgery. 3 days later he went under the knife.After hours of open heart surgery and a couple of weeks of recovery he was with us at home.We have a beautiful son who although still has his defect, the 2 surgeries have done enough to give him a good chance at life.
I guess to finish what I am trying to convey is that even though he would have been classed as incompatible with life, He Chose to fight.We just gave him the chance.If abortion was widely available he would'nt have had this oppertunity,as in most countries where babies with fetal abnormalities are nearly all automatically aborted.This to me is a disgrace because I know people with Down syndrome who wouldn't be here if abortion was in this country and some of these people contribute more to society than more able bodied people.Life is a Right not an Option.

fitz0

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The ones that say a woman's right to control of her own body is absolute?

The monsters.

SimeonsDad wrote: »

I guess to finish what I am trying to convey is that even though he would have been classed as incompatible with life, He Chose to fight.We just gave him the chance.If abortion was widely available he would'nt have had this oppertunity,as in most countries where babies with fetal abnormalities are nearly all automatically aborted.This to me is a disgrace because I know people with Down syndrome who wouldn't be here if abortion was in this country and some of these people contribute more to society than more able bodied people.Life is a Right not an Option.

While your story is certainly a good one and I don't doubt any of the details, the bolded bit is just not true. You say you were given the option of termination and chose not to go for it. You made the choice. So, the further availanility of the choice you were offered would not have affected your decision. There is no such ting as 'automatic abortion.'

swampgas

While I sympathise with what you have been through, I disagree with your position.

SimeonsDad wrote: »

From the moment we heard this we were faced with a few choices 1)Compassionate Care (2) Termination (3) Multiple Surgeries - if at all possible.

So, you were given options and you were allowed to choose what you thought was best for you. Why do you want to deny other people the right to choose a different option to the one that was best for you?

What you seem to be saying is "I chose this option, but you must have the same option forced upon you."

28064212

SimeonsDad wrote: »

So i came across this thread and I find it interesting that (I think its fair to say) none of the posts are from people who have been through an Abortion or speaking from any kind of experience

You would be wrong on that, there have been quite a few posters speaking from personal experience

SimeonsDad wrote: »

.If abortion was widely available he would'nt have had this oppertunity,as in most countries where babies with fetal abnormalities are nearly all automatically aborted

That doesn't make any sense. You were given the option of abortion. You made the choice not to.

You believe that your position is fundamentally right, and that no-one should be allowed choose differently. My position is that people should be allowed to make their own decisions. No-one, anywhere on this thread, has advocated forcing abortions on anyone

Tipsygypsy

SimeonsDad wrote: »

So i came across this thread and I find it interesting that (I think its fair to say) none of the posts are from people who have been through an Abortion or speaking from any kind of experience

No, thats not 'fair to say', there is no way for you to know what experience any of us here have with abortion.

Im genuinely glad that the decision YOU made is working out for YOU, I understand it has probably been a very difficult time. But your experience does not, in any way, reflect on or dictate what my decision should be in the same circumstances.

SimeonsDad

Never would I set out to try and convince anyone to choose a certain option what I am saying is that we personaly were glad we gave our child the chance.Plus as for the options side of things we were pressured towards choosing compassionate care since its allowed here but we really wanted our child, I can say without a doubt that if abortion was available the presures would have been far greater.At the end of the day it comes down to money and its cheaper to terminate than go through a long medical recovery.Plus can I say I personally know 2 ladies who travelled to england and both regreted the decision minutes after the procedure was performed, and having seen them return to that memory every year since has been rough even though they both have moved on in life and now have families of their own...And thats what I refer to as consequences.
And as for my comment about the positions of people posting here there was no offence intended I drew my conclusions from what i had read which was pretty much all of them,yes there are alot of educated posts with solid info, but no mention of experience from what I read.