Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

SimeonsDad

fitz0 wrote: »

The monsters.


. So, the further availanility of the choice you were offered would not have affected your decision. There is no such ting as 'automatic abortion.'

Ok your right on 1 thing it would not have affected our decision but for many others who would be easier to persuade they have pushed the other options with success, can I just say if you look at countries that have had abortion available for years there is such a thing as 'automatic abortion'
In china if you were female you were aborted
In scandinavia babies with down syndrome are automatically aborted
these things do happen.

28064212

SimeonsDad wrote: »

In china if you were female you were aborted
In scandinavia babies with down syndrome are automatically aborted

Both of these are absolute lies

Nodin

SimeonsDad wrote: »

.............
In china if you were female you were aborted
In scandinavia babies with down syndrome are automatically aborted
these things do happen.

Chinese state policy is to keep birth numbers down, not female numbers. I'd suggest you're getting some things confused there.

You're talking nonsense re scandanavia.

Of course you could prove me wrong and yourself entirely, glowingly right by providing sources for your claims.

SimeonsDad

28064212 wrote: »

Both of these are absolute lies

research it you might be surprised plus just to clarify that after you had 1 child in china that was your allowance after that any pregnancy was ended.Also because of these going on's now they have a shortage of women in the country.

Nodin

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The ones that say a woman's right to control of her own body is absolute?

Ahh steady on now. Once they have control over their own body, they'll take over other peoples. They won't stop till we're all crushed 'neath their steely bosomed rule....

28064212

SimeonsDad wrote: »

research it you might be surprised plus just to clarify that after you had 1 child in china that was your allowance after that any pregnancy was ended.Also because of these going on's now they have a shortage of women in the country.

So your claim is that there is not a single baby with Down's Syndrome born in Sweden, not a single female child born in China, and no second children born in China? Right. Like I said the first time these are all absolute lies. If you have some evidence that says any different, present it

SimeonsDad

Nodin wrote: »

Chinese state policy is to keep birth numbers down, not female numbers. I'd suggest you're getting some things confused there.

You're talking nonsense re scandanavia.

Of course you could prove me wrong and yourself entirely, glowingly right by providing sources for your claims.

your correct in what you are saying what I meant is that most families needed/wanted sons in china so the girls were aborted this is true and if you want to you can check this out http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/100585.htm
"Although equality of men and women is a basic principle in China, there are still couples who practice abortion once they find out their unborn babies are girls. Today, the consequent gender imbalance of these actions has shown up in kindergartens and primary and middle schools across Beijing, and the situation has attracted public attention."
and re scandinavia:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/deselecting-our-children/article626406/
“Plans to make Denmark a Down syndrome-free perfect society.” The Danes want to promote aborting fetuses with Down syndrome, so their society will be free of such people around 2030. One bioethicist describes it as a “fantastic achievement.”

swampgas

SimeonsDad wrote: »

research it you might be surprised plus just to clarify that after you had 1 child in china that was your allowance after that any pregnancy was ended.Also because of these going on's now they have a shortage of women in the country.

To a certain extent this is true, but how does this relate to whether abortion should be available or not?

I don't think anyone here is advocating enforced abortion, rather that abortion be available where the woman wants it.

SimeonsDad

28064212 wrote: »

So your claim is that there is not a single baby with Down's Syndrome born in Sweden, not a single female child born in China, and no second children born in China? Right. Like I said the first time these are all absolute lies. If you have some evidence that says any different, present it

Hell No, and because you dont have the facts your asking silly questions of course there are female children born in china because they seen waht was wrong with their policy.
And I never mentioned sweeden its Denmark and yes they are automatically terminated.

28064212

SimeonsDad wrote: »

Hell No, and because you dont have the facts your asking silly questions of course there are female children born in china because they seen waht was wrong with their policy.
And I never mentioned sweeden its Denmark and yes they are automatically terminated.

I don't think you know what the word automatically means. And the post I replied to says Scandinavia, not Denmark

Bannasidhe

SimeonsDad wrote: »

your correct in what you are saying what I meant is that most families needed/wanted sons in china so the girls were aborted this is true and if you want to you can check this out http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/100585.htm
"Although equality of men and women is a basic principle in China, there are still couples who practice abortion once they find out their unborn babies are girls. Today, the consequent gender imbalance of these actions has shown up in kindergartens and primary and middle schools across Beijing, and the situation has attracted public attention."
and re scandinavia:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/deselecting-our-children/article626406/
“Plans to make Denmark a Down syndrome-free perfect society.” The Danes want to promote aborting fetuses with Down syndrome, so their society will be free of such people around 2030. One bioethicist describes it as a “fantastic achievement.”

So what you have 'proven' is that despite being officially equal in fact China as a society is still sexist so boys are valued more then girls by some people but to state that all girls are automatically is misleading in the extreme. My proof - the existence of Chinese women and girls.

Some people in Denmark avdocating abortion of fetus with Down Sydrome is a millions miles away from 'In scandinavia babies with down syndrome are automatically aborted'. You have taken a proposal in one country and stated as fact that three countries automatically abort. This is a lie.

Delirium

SimeonsDad wrote: »

Hell No, and because you dont have the facts your asking silly questions of course there are female children born in china because they seen waht was wrong with their policy.
And I never mentioned sweeden its Denmark and yes they are automatically terminated.

Yes you did.

SimeonsDad wrote: »

In scandinavia babies with down syndrome are automatically aborted
these things do happen.

Scandinavia is Norway, Sweden, Denmark, Iceland and Finland AFAIK.

MagicMarker

SimeonsDad wrote: »

And I never mentioned sweeden its Denmark and yes they are automatically terminated.

You said Scandinavia.

Can you post a link backing up your claim, as I happen to think it's nonsense, and my own googleing has brought up nothing to confirm what you're saying.

SimeonsDad

Just to clarify I dont judge anyone who decides to opt for abortion that is completly there decision but what I would like to see is people having more of a value on life.Having more support for people who face this option and not the bull they offer in hospital but proper support coming from people who have been there and can understand the emotion's and fear's that go along with it.I just dont think it should be a convenience thing that it becomes so normal that you might as well be talking about having your hair cut.

SimeonsDad

28064212 wrote: »

And the post I replied to says Scandinavia, not Denmark

Scandinavia is not a country its a region.

28064212

SimeonsDad wrote: »

Scandinavia is not a country its a region.

A region that includes Sweden, which was an example of a country where apparently all "babies with down syndrome are automatically aborted". Are you going to back this ridiculous claim up with evidence or withdraw it (and both Chinese "automatic abortion" claims)?

Bannasidhe

SimeonsDad wrote: »

Scandinavia is not a country its a region.

We know that- that why why it was queried. You responded with a link about proposals in Denmark.

You will learn pretty quickly that regular posters here tend to follow the links and research any info provided.

Make your case by all means, if you had read through the whole thread as you say you have you will have seen that not all regulars here are pro-choice and there have been some excellent points raised by those (well, mainly Sin City) posters. You do your case no favours by resorting to hyperbole and gross exaggeration - all that will happen if you do that is you will be slammed by fact checking pedants (like myself) and dismissed as a liar.

Welcome to A + A.

Nodin

SimeonsDad wrote: »

your correct in what you are saying what I meant is that most families needed/wanted sons in china so the girls were aborted this is true and if you want to you can check this out http://www.china.org.cn/english/China/100585.htm.

Thats a practice common in the pre-modern world which still continues - most notroriously - in China and India. It has nothing to do with abortion as practiced in the west and is illegal in most legislations, afaik.

SimeonsDad wrote: »

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/commentary/deselecting-our-children/article626406/
“Plans to make Denmark a Down syndrome-free perfect society.” The Danes want to promote aborting fetuses with Down syndrome, so their society will be free of such people around 2030. One bioethicist describes it as a “fantastic achievement.”

...which, whatever one thinks of it, is not mandatory abortion, either in the single country mentioned or Scandanavia. Thats two for two where you were wrong.

What you are quoting is an article responding to an another article about the rolling out of a programme scanning for the disease on a nationwide basis and its effects
http://www.bmj.com/content/337/bmj.a2547
There is no mandatory abortion involved.

fitz0

SimeonsDad wrote: »

Ok your right on 1 thing it would not have affected our decision but for many others who would be easier to persuade they have pushed the other options with success, can I just say if you look at countries that have had abortion available for years there is such a thing as 'automatic abortion'
In china if you were female you were aborted
In scandinavia babies with down syndrome are automatically aborted
these things do happen.

I can understand where you are coming from and I would also hope that, like yourself others would resist any pressure put upon them to do what they considered right. Automatic abortion however, makes it sound like the decision is made without the consent of the woman.

The Chinese issue is more a cultural one. The legality of abortion would only reduce the numbers of women dying from botched abortions since having a male child in a one child only society is a matter of prestige. To have a male child has greater social and cultural weight than to have a female child. Changing that is not a matter of outlawing abortion, it is one of gender equality.

the Scandinavia comment is dubious and has been addressed already so I'll leave that one.

Hotblack Desiato

The subsequent posts about 'automatic abortion' and the like do not lend crediblity to the poster in my humble opinion. They have the appearance of an agenda.

pauldla

Did somebody mention China..!?!??

Female foetuses are not automatically aborted in China. The idea is nonsense.

However, there is an imbalance in gender ratios, and it is becoming a social problem.

The introduction of the One Child Policy in the early eighties was an attempt to control population growth. It has been estimated that, without this policy, there would now be tens, if not hundreds, of millions more Chinese mouths to feed, and that the Chinese economic boom might have been very different if the population had been continued to grow as it did. The One Child Policy may not be pretty, but it addressed the issue that the Chinese had to do something, and the OCP is what they did.

In traditional Chinese society, boys were valued for passing on the family name, and for continuing reverence for departed ancestors. It remains an important part of the culture to this day, most noticably expressed in the yearly Qing Ming (Tomb Sweeping) festival.

All expectant mothers are encouraged to have regular scans during their pregancy, and the doctor will of course keep parents informed as to the status of their pregnancy. However, doctors are expressly forbidden to tell parents the gender of their child. But, depending on their circumstances, some parents cross the doctors palm with silver to find out. It's illegal, but it happens. Parents may then decide not to proceed with the pregnancy.

Families may have more than one child under certain circumstances. Families of minorities are exempt from the One Child Policy, and rural familes who have a daughter as their first child are allowed to 'try again'. It's not unusual to find families with two, three or four big sisters and one little brother, especially in the inland provinces.

Otherwise, these days, families with more than one child are usually fined, and may have difficulty securing a school for their child. This is not implemented uniformly across the country, and one finds a lot of regional variation.

Forced abortions, such as the notorious case earlier this year, are rare, and are voluably criticised. The domestic outrage in that case certainly matched the international reaction.

The OCP is not implemented across the board; as stated, there is a lot of variation, for a variety of reasons. In many ways the OCP is resented as being implemented unfairly, and for favouring wealthy families, but the Chinese understand that, with a population in excess of over 1.6 billion, some form of social engineering is necessary. One the most common things you hear Chinese people say is "There are too many people in China".

Abortion in China is a complex issue, and should not be reduced to such nonsensical statements as "girls are automatically aborted".

But even if it were true, would it not be yet another argument in favour of pro-choice, but from a different angle?

Galvasean

SimeonsDad wrote: »

I can say without a doubt that if abortion was available the presures would have been far greater.

There you go again saying IF abortion was available and yet in your opening post you say one of the options put to you was 'termination'. Was it available or not?

Obliq

robp wrote: »

The flaw in your post and all pro-choice absolutists is that there is nothing magical about passing through the birth canal that transforms it from a fetus into a person. Human life is a continuum of development. All the literature support this.

There is a consensus amongst all pro-choice parties that abortion is the last resort. It would be far better to avoid them in first place. Every major group agrees on this. The best way to do that is contestable. Yet, amongst Irish women the procedure is 4 times less* common than the England and Wales. Clearly we are doing something right.

*Abortions from ONS and Department of Health (UK); female population aged 15-44 from CSO,
(population at April of each years) unwed births and other data from CSO.

Got to answer this, since my post was called 'flawed' and I've been labelled a 'pro-choice absolutist'. I don't believe that I have anywhere claimed that a fetus attains personhood by birth into the world. I am in absolute agreement with you that 'Human life is a continuum of development'. Where we differ is that I don't have a sentimental attachment to the notion of the 'right to life'.

I have stated in posts on the Christian forum what I believe, and it is very different to you, and I claim that my moral integrity is as good as yours, and as valid. http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=81072953

Bobby42

Any one see the ad from the Life Institute in the Metro this morning?

It bugged me. It says:

"THE EXPERTS HAVE SPOKEN:
AND ITS GOOD NEWS FOR WOMEN AND BABIES.

Ireland without abortion, is one of the safest places in the world to have a baby. And an abortion is NOT ever needed to save a mothers life.

That's the good news that was shared at a recent meeting of top medical experts in Dublin. They confirmed that doctors don't need an abortion to treat cancer or any other condition arising in pregnancy.

You see, if any medical condition arises during pregnancy, doctors in Ireland will always fully treat the mother, even if it causes the unintentional death of her baby. That's because the intent of this treatment is to save the mother, not kill the baby.

And that's NOT an abortion.

So Ireland's ban on abortion protects BOTH mother and baby. That's what the experts tell us. And that's GOOD news for Irish women and their babies.

Protect Ireland's pro - life laws. Don't let this Government legalise abortion".

Who are these "experts"? What meeting in Dublin?

How can they confirm anything? Where's their research if they're confirming something?

Not a single group of doctors or institute were referenced to back up the claims in the ad.

Obliq

I'll go try find that study for you. I've seen this before spouted about on the YD facebook page. It's been discredited any number of times - as far as I remember, there was an intern, a retired doctor and some YD person involved.

Obliq

Here's the link to the 'study'.
http://www.thelifeinstitute.net/latest-news/major-medical-symposium-in-dublin-concludes-that-abortion-is-not-medically-necessary-to-save-the-life-of-a-mother/

Can't find where I had read the list of speakers at the symposium and their qualifications/pro-life agenda. Will come across it eventually!

Obliq

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0910/1224323797477.html

This is an interesting take on the symposium: "While many of the organisers have been involved in anti-abortion events in the past, a spokesman for the group, Dr Eoghan de Faoite, told The Irish Times the event was not linked in any way to the Pro-Life Campaign or any other organisation.

“All organisers were involved in their professional capacity and were not here to represent any pro-life position,” he said.""

Good one Dr., yup - no links to pro-life campaign at all :pac:

Galvasean

If they are peddling mistruths (ie: lies) in public print surely complaints of such would be upheld similar to the recent Kevin Myers opinion piece on homosexuality? I mean if something under the topic of 'opinion' can be taken to task for being factually inaccurate, surely an advert would be just as, if not more susceptible? Certainly, a strong case could be made to the Advertisement Authority.

MrPudding

fitz0 wrote: »

There is no such ting as 'automatic abortion.'

Except in nature, that is...

MrP

Obliq

MrPudding wrote: »

Except in nature, that is...

MrP

True. Take rabbits for example: "Female hares (jills) and female rabbits (does) have the remarkable ability to re-absorb fetuses already present in the womb if they feel stressed. Rabbit and hare populations are cyclical and affect their predators’ populations as well. If human female bodies had that ability, I wonder how it would impact world populations. "http://flandrumhill.wordpress.com/2009/04/06/the-advantages-of-being-harebrained/

Pity we aren't structured that way.