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Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

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    #1532
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,792 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    robp wrote: »
    There is an issue of possibly willful misinterpretation going on in my opinion. This whole thread is opaque as hell though. It depends on what the 'offensive' issue was though. Is if was about abortion = killing well that is in no way offensive. If it was about abortion being something done by mentally women than its probably a misinterpretation. Since the X-case the topic of depression and pregnancy shadow abortion debates.

    with due respect, you don't get to declare what other people do or don't find offensive. Many folk get offended at the idea of calling women who have had abortions murderers.

    As to the misinterpretation, assuming you're referring to any discussion with the now banned Mario, he was asked to clarify if he was actually calling for pregnant women to be forced to carry a child to term in a mental asylum. He didn't deny it and his posts did imply he would support such an idea.

    A poster can only be understood by the content of their posts. If they aren't being clearly understood, then it's on them to clarify themselves.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1533
    B0jangles
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,951 ✭✭✭B0jangles


    robp wrote: »
    There is an issue of possibly willful misinterpretation going on in my opinion. This whole thread is opaque as hell though. It depends on what the 'offensive' issue was though. Is if was about abortion = killing well that is in no way offensive. If it was about abortion being something done by mentally women than its probably a misinterpretation. Since the X-case the topic of depression and pregnancy shadow abortion debates.


    I read all of Mario's comments and what I took away from it was a sort of catch-22 idea about abortion, i.e if a woman does not want an abortion then she is deemed mentally well in his world, and is allowed to continue unobstructed with her pregnancy.

    However if she does want an abortion, then according to him, that is automatically evidence that she is mentally ill and should be restrained in a mental institution until she is deemed well again - I assume this happens about 5 minutes after she gives birth.

    It is dressing up the idea of imprisoning women who do not want to be pregnant and then forcing them to be incubators for unwanted pregnancies in an astonishingly transparent veil of concern for their well-being.


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    #1534
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    koth wrote: »
    with due respect, you don't get to declare what other people do or don't find offensive. Many folk get offended at the idea of calling women who have had abortions murderers.
    [/B]

    Offensive? Between 35-70% of the Irish population would see abortion as killing. You'd want to grow a thicker skin for yourself.

    [/QUOTE]
    As to the misinterpretation, assuming you're referring to any discussion with the now banned Mario, he was asked to clarify if he was actually calling for pregnant women to be forced to carry a child to term in a mental asylum. He didn't deny it and his posts did imply he would support such an idea.
    [/QUOTE]

    He did deny this. Unless I am missing someone.
    Mario852 wrote: »
    I can't even remember how many time i have explained that...
    I never said (or implied) anything about locking women so they can't have an abortion.
    Read back, because I am actually tired of repeating myself over and over again.

    From what I can see he was banned for confirming Godwin's law. :rolleyes:


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    #1535
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    He said that if women wanted an abortion that equates to desire to self-harm and emotional instability, ie mental problems. What do we do with mental people? Put them in an institution.

    Robp, I would consider it killing an embryo, killing a potential child. That's not the same thing as branding women who've had abortions murderers.


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    #1536
    gbee
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,388 ✭✭✭gbee


    The Church will has its usual followers and they will vote the way the cardinal says, that will give probably 50% of the vote straight off.


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    #1537
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,792 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    robp wrote: »
    Offensive? Between 35-70% of the Irish population would see abortion as killing. You'd want to grow a thicker skin for yourself.
    You've made an erroneous assumption there I afraid, I said "many people" not "I". But at least now you see that it can be seen as offensive language otherwise why tell me to "grow a thicker skin"?
    He did deny this. Unless I am missing someone.
    Eventually, yes, he did deny it. But his earlier posts did imply that he did support the idea. He said he never implied his support, but he did. He stated in his posts that women who want to get an abortion should be put into a mental institution.

    From what I can see he was banned for confirming Godwin's law. :rolleyes:
    Really doubt that. But discussing the reasoning for the ban is off-topic for this thread.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #1538
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Malari wrote: »
    What do we do with mental people? Put them in an institution.
    Actually we increasingly don't put them in an institution.


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    #1539
    pauldla
    Registered Users Posts: 2,247 ✭✭✭pauldla


    robp wrote: »

    I defined it earlier but for clarity it is someone who takes the typical logic in support of abortion to its natural end. Who brings it to its logical conclusion i.e. someone who sees the idea of choice as the overriding factor always. In many ways I would share many views with them because like me they acknowledge the arbitrariness of abortion time limits, 24 weeks in the UK, 12 weeks in Germany or in the third trimester in several countries.

    Sorry rob, you did offer a clarification earlier but I don't understand it. Could I ask you to explain further, please?

    Also, as an additional point, what is the typical logic in support of abortion? I'm not clear on what you mean on this, either.


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    #1540
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    Rev Hellfire wrote: »
    Actually we increasingly don't put them in an institution.

    Em, yeah, I know that. I was explaining what Mario's facile little solution to women having abortions was.


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    #1541
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    Malari wrote: »
    He said that if women wanted an abortion that equates to desire to self-harm and emotional instability, ie mental problems. What do we do with mental people? Put them in an institution.

    Robp, I would consider it killing an embryo, killing a potential child. That's not the same thing as branding women who've had abortions murderers.

    I don't agree with putting people in Institutions if they have problems. On average about a third of people suffer from depression at some point in their lives. Should they all be locked up too?

    No healthy women wants an abortion. They are driven to it by their circumstances. So it is not crazy to say what he said. It sounds like your putting words in his mouth. In the US the rational behind 21% of abortions is the lack of ability to financially support a child. That is horrifying. I know many American feminists are pro-life but pro-choice feminists there have a lot to answer for in their complicity of this.
    koth wrote: »
    Really doubt that. But discussing the reasoning for the ban is off-topic for this thread.

    I think that is most logical explanation for a ban so far based of the following quote but I am not telepathic.
    robindch wrote: »
    Last post on this topic, as you still don't seem to be getting the point.

    The next post, from any poster, which invokes Hitler will be deleted without comment and if it's a mystery to the poster concerned, well, so be it.

    pauldla, I will respond later. My microscope needs me.


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    #1542
    Rev Hellfire
    Closed Accounts Posts: 7,346 ✭✭✭Rev Hellfire


    Malari wrote: »
    Em, yeah, I know that. I was explaining what Mario's facile little solution to women having abortions was.

    Fair enough.


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    #1543
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    robp wrote: »
    I don't agree with putting people in Institutions if they have problems. On average about a third of people suffer from depression at some point in their lives. Should they all be locked up too?

    I don't think this! :rolleyes: I was paraphrasing. Jeez, I've already said I don't think this...
    robp wrote: »
    So it is not crazy to say what he said. It sounds like your putting words in his mouth. In the US the rational behind 21% of abortions is the lack of ability to financially support a child. That is horrifying. I know many American feminists are pro-life but pro-choice feminists there have a lot to answer for in their complicity of this.

    I wasn't putting words in his mouth, he stated as much himself:
    Mario852 wrote: »
    If a woman is that mentally ill, then someone should take of her, and be treated like other people who are in danger of harming others or themselves.
    Mario852 wrote: »
    She should be treated like other people who are in danger of damaging someone's/own health/life.
    i.e. Like a mentally ill person.
    Mario852 wrote: »
    They aren't prisons, they are mental institution made to help emotionally unstable people.

    And as for this:
    robp wrote: »
    No healthy women wants an abortion. They are driven to it by their circumstances.

    Not all women are "driven" to it! Just because it's the right choice for them does not mean it's the only choice. It's completely insulting to say no healthy woman wants an abortion and it's incorrect.


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    #1544
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    robp wrote: »
    No healthy women wants an abortion. They are driven to it by their circumstances. So it is not crazy to say what he said. It sounds like your putting words in his mouth. In the US the rational behind 21% of abortions is the lack of ability to financially support a child. That is horrifying. I know many American feminists are pro-life but pro-choice feminists there have a lot to answer for in their complicity of this.

    What exactly do you mean by "no healthy woman wants an abortion"? Where is your evidence for this?

    Finances can have a lot to do with it but being in a bad financial position is not a sign of a mental illness.


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    #1545
    Ickle Magoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 17,485 ✭✭✭✭Ickle Magoo


    robp wrote: »
    No healthy women wants an abortion.

    That would be as much of a true scotsman fallacy as my suggesting no healthy man/person would champion/support enforced pregnancy...


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    #1546
    robp
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 1,934 ✭✭✭robp


    eviltwin wrote: »
    What exactly do you mean by "no healthy woman wants an abortion"? Where is your evidence for this?

    Finances can have a lot to do with it but being in a bad financial position is not a sign of a mental illness.

    I didn't say it is a sign of mental illness. Don't misquote me. I am saying that abortion is never a happy memory. Its considered a second choice. I wouldn't stand behind Mario's comments but I feel there is a lot of exaggeration, he did retract that part after all.

    I know enough women who have had them and read ample studies to know that abortion is fundamentally a negative experience. A minority of people say that the procedure should be as normal as a haircut but these are almost all men and are people with no involvement with the legal abortion campaign. Pro-choicers usually grasp that its a dig deal for the women involved.


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    #1547
    Malari
    Registered Users Posts: 18,150 ✭✭✭✭Malari


    I understand if you mean "no healthy woman wants an abortion". As in I don't ever want kids and I don't ever want to be pregnant. I am very, very careful in that regard. I am a healthy woman who does not want an abortion.

    But you go on to say "they are driven to it by circumstances" which makes it sounds like the actions of a desperate woman who is not in a position to have a child. Maybe you don't mean this.


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    #1548
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    robp wrote: »
    I didn't say it is a sign of mental illness. Don't misquote me. I am saying that abortion is never a happy memory. Its considered a second choice. I wouldn't stand behind Mario's comments but I feel there is a lot of exaggeration, he did retract that part after all.

    I know enough women who have had them and read ample studies to know that abortion is fundamentally a negative experience. A minority of people say that the procedure should be as normal as a haircut but these are almost all men and are people with no involvement with the legal abortion campaign. Pro-choicers usually grasp that its a dig deal for the women involved.


    I'm sorry Robp but you are going to have to clarify. I don't get what you mean by "its considered a second choice".


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    #1549
    28064212
    Registered Users Posts: 10,634 ✭✭✭✭28064212


    robp wrote: »
    I didn't say it is a sign of mental illness. Don't misquote me. I am saying that abortion is never a happy memory. Its considered a second choice. I wouldn't stand behind Mario's comments but I feel there is a lot of exaggeration, he did retract that part after all.

    I know enough women who have had them and read ample studies to know that abortion is fundamentally a negative experience
    Except you're comparing abortion to "happy" pregnancies i.e. wanted babies. You're right that abortion is a second choice. But bearing an unwanted pregnancy is third choice. First choice would be not to be pregnant. An unwanted pregnancy is "fundamentally a negative experience"

    Healthy women have chosen, and continue to choose, abortion as the best option for them.

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    #1550
    jasonmcco
    Closed Accounts Posts: 174 ✭✭jasonmcco


    UDP wrote: »
    So the abortion debate about to kick off again.

    From what I know it doesn't have to go to a referendum as the supreme court already ruled that it is legal under certain circumstances e.g. when the life of the mother is at risk.

    No doctor can perform an abortion here since it would be classified as mal practice and they would be struck off by the Irish Medical Council.

    The EU has said (because of a human rights case they heard) that we have to have an accessible procedure that women can avail of to determine if they can have a legal abortion.

    This means that there needs to be clear guidelines as to what grounds a legal abortion will be granted.



    Cardinal Brady says they are going to have a massive campaign. Pat Rabbit basically says this is not the 1950's where the church tells the government what to do.

    Do you think the church will have much sway on people's opinions in this debate?

    I don't think they will have much impact on those under 40 and I would imagine the damage they have caused to themselves over the past few years re abuse will hurt their persuading powers greatly.


    wonder will it be as massive as the campaign they had against sexual abuse within the church
    :mad:


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    #1551
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    robp wrote: »
    I know enough women who have had them and read ample studies to know that abortion is fundamentally a negative experience. A minority of people say that the procedure should be as normal as a haircut but these are almost all men and are people with no involvement with the legal abortion campaign. Pro-choicers usually grasp that its a dig deal for the women involved.


    And I know a lot of women who are very grateful they were able to have them.

    So where does that leave us?

    I'm sure there are few people who will argue that abortion can be a terrible thing for some women. Its true some women feel pressured to have abortions or do it without really thinking it through and thats tragic but please give women some credit. Many of us look at our options and make an informed choice. I shouldn't be denied access to it because someone, somewhere regrets it.


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    #1552
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    robp wrote: »
    It sounds like debate is offensive to you.

    It sounds like you don't understand what debate is. Do you honestly think that person was debating?


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    #1553
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    robp wrote: »
    I didn't say it is a sign of mental illness. Don't misquote me. I am saying that abortion is never a happy memory. Its considered a second choice. I wouldn't stand behind Mario's comments but I feel there is a lot of exaggeration, he did retract that part after all.

    I know enough women who have had them and read ample studies to know that abortion is fundamentally a negative experience. A minority of people say that the procedure should be as normal as a haircut but these are almost all men and are people with no involvement with the legal abortion campaign. Pro-choicers usually grasp that its a dig deal for the women involved.

    Links?


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    #1554
    Lingua Franca
    Registered Users Posts: 2,800 ✭✭✭Lingua Franca


    It's funny how vocally pro life people always know many women who've had abortions and regret them. Everyone in Precious Life and Youth Defence claim the same thing. It would appear that some women who've had abortions go seeking out the judgemental folk to confess their sins to them.

    That doesn't jive with my experience at all, but hey, who knows?


    old hippy, you'll be waiting forever to get a link from robp. I'm still waiting to hear how Obliq is a pro-choice absolutist, although I suspect that can't be answered coherently because the "pro choice absolutist" phrase only started getting tossed around after robp was called out by me for making absolutist statements.


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    #1555
    marky1905
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 61 ✭✭marky1905


    its all good saying abortion is murder, but after sitting in the health centre listening to babys cry for half an hour you think maybe it isn't such a bad idea after all , don't get me wrong i do like kids, but for unsuitable or mentaly disturbed "parents" it could be a baby constantly crying could be enough to make them snap and end up harming the child, as we see very often these days.


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    #1556
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Lingua Franca wrote: »
    It's funny how vocally pro life people always know many women who've had abortions and regret them. Everyone in Precious Life and Youth Defence claim the same thing. It would appear that some women who've had abortions go seeking out the judgemental folk to confess their sins to them.

    That doesn't jive with my experience at all, but hey, who knows?

    Unfortunately a lot of these women who are vulnerable go to dodgy places like Rachels Vineyard hoping to be helped probably not realising they are run and supported by the right wing pro-lifers.


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    #1557
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    marky1905 wrote: »
    its all good saying abortion is murder, but after sitting in the health centre listening to babys cry for half an hour you think maybe it isn't such a bad idea after all , don't get me wrong i do like kids, but for unsuitable or mentaly disturbed "parents" it could be a baby constantly crying could be enough to make them snap and end up harming the child, as we see very often these days.

    Is this like the other thread where you're practically begging to be banned?


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    #1558
    marky1905
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 61 ✭✭marky1905


    old hippy wrote: »
    Is this like the other thread where you're practically begging to be banned?

    no mate i think thats a fair point to make. the 4 day ban on after hours was outrageous quite frankly!


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    #1559
    eviltwin
    Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    marky1905 wrote: »
    no mate i think thats a fair point to make. the 4 day ban on after hours was outrageous quite frankly!

    I get what you say. Surely if someone feels unstable and wants an abortion its madness to force them to have a child they may not be mentally strong enough to deal with. Makes sense. Kids can drive even the strongest person to dispair.


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    #1560
    marky1905
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 61 ✭✭marky1905


    eviltwin wrote: »
    I get what you say. Surely if someone feels unstable and wants an abortion its madness to force them to have a child they may not be mentally strong enough to deal with. Makes sense. Kids can drive even the strongest person to dispair.

    Thats what im saying, the baby in the health centre today cryed for a good 20 mins non stop, put my head away! someone who's a bit unstable just wouldn't be able to cope with that its a guarantee, then the baby get neglected or abused.


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    #1561
    Dades
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 25,558 Mod ✭✭✭✭Dades


    marky1905 wrote: »
    its all good saying abortion is murder, but after sitting in the health centre listening to babys cry for half an hour you think maybe it isn't such a bad idea after all...
    I appreciate you are actually making a point but perhaps you could work on your turn of phrase.

    Thanking you!


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