Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

robp

Sharrow wrote: »

Such timing....

Makes you wonder what civil servant had it filed away.

the timing would make me you wonder alright.

robindch

Folks -

Stark wrote: »

[...] the youth defence vermin [...]

Obliq wrote: »

[...] You disgust me.

We appreciate that emotions are running hot and high over this issue, but when posting, please do bear the forum charter in mind. Thanks.

robp

MagicMarker wrote: »

We know the basic facts.

The woman in question was miscarrying a child, as a result her cervix was dialated for an extended period of time. Because of this she developed septicemia, even at this stage she still had to wait a day until the foetal heartbeat had stopped before the fetus was removed.

It's absolutely clear from these basic facts that had the doctors acted sooner, the chances of infection would have been reducded SIGNIFICANTLY!!

Not only this but the husband has confirmed that the doctors refused to perform an abortion because "this is a Catholic country".

So tell me robp, wtf kind of details are you waiting for?

Absolutely fúcking disgusting.

Have you talked to the consultants involved? As I said before I suspect medical negligence.

pauldla

robp wrote: »

Have you talked to the consultants involved? As I said before I suspect medical negligence.

Aye, as in it wasn't the fall that killed her, it was the sudden stop. :mad:

Bannasidhe

robp wrote: »

Have you talked to the consultants involved? As I said before I suspect medical negligence.

No- it's a clear case of Governmental negligence.

You seem to have trouble understanding that abortion is still illegal in Ireland - no exceptions.

Had a doctor performed an abortion they would have been breaking the law as it stands.

20 years ago the Irish people instructed the government to change the law and allow abortions when the life of the mother was in danger. We are still waiting.

What do you not understand about this?

28064212

robp wrote: »

Have you talked to the consultants involved? As I said before I suspect medical negligence.

Have you figured out how to end the pregnancy without violating the law?

whosoever, with intent to procure the miscarriage of any woman, whether she be or be not with child, shall unlawfully administer to her or cause to be taken by her any poison or other noxious thing, or shall unlawfully use any instrument or other means whatsoever with the like intent, shall be guilty of felony

Lingua Franca

robp wrote: »

As I said before I suspect medical negligence.

Have you talked to the consultants involved? How can you make such a rash dramatic judgment with no expert medical advice?


A woman just posted this on TMFR Ireland's facebook page.

I was left with my dead baby f nearly two weeks and told I wld have to wait f her to be born naturally I had to demand to be given something as I was getting very stressed when she was born she was decaying how lucky I am to be here unlike poor Savita RIP

... this is not healthcare.

The Mad Hatter

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No- it's a clear case of Governmental negligence.

You seem to have trouble understanding that abortion is still illegal in Ireland - no exceptions.

Had a doctor performed an abortion they would have been breaking the law as it stands.

20 years ago the Irish people instructed the government to change the law and allow abortions when the life of the mother was in danger. We are still waiting.

What do you not understand about this?

Given the doctors' callous and idiotic "this is a Catholic country" response, one wonders whether she'd have gotten the abortion even if it had been legal.

Bannasidhe

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Given the doctors' callous and idiotic "this is a Catholic country" response, one wonders whether she'd have gotten the abortion even if it had been legal.

There are other doctors...

Plus, if a legal medical procedure is refused due to the Doctor's personal religious beliefs they and the HSE could be sued and the Doc struck off the medical register.

In this instance the doctor could impose his religious beliefs as the law backs him up. Would he have been so gung-ho if his career, rather than a young woman's life, was at stake?

robp

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Have you talked to the consultants involved? How can you make such a rash dramatic judgment with no expert medical advice?


A woman just posted this on TMFR Ireland's facebook page.




... this is not healthcare.

Of course. Its completely premature to shout that its medical negligence but thats my personal suspicion. We need to wait there is clarity. If we are to believe the Irish Times report she died because antibiotics were withheld for too long. Of course the pro-choice lobby is less interested in considering these details and more interested in using the case to push legal change.

Penn

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

Given the doctors' callous and idiotic "this is a Catholic country" response, one wonders whether she'd have gotten the abortion even if it had been legal.

In fairness, it may have been a "This is a Catholic country" response as in "Because this is a catholic country, abortion isn't allowed which means legally there's nothing I can do". The doctor may not have necessarily agreed with their inability to provide an abortion.

Don't get me wrong, the fact that an abortion couldn't be allowed in a case like this is utterly disgusting and shameful, but I'm holding off opinion on the doctors' comments as I think they could be taken either way.

Delirium

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Have you talked to the consultants involved? How can you make such a rash dramatic judgment with no expert medical advice?


A woman just posted this on TMFR Ireland's facebook page.

I was left with my dead baby f nearly two weeks and told I wld have to wait f her to be born naturally I had to demand to be given something as I was getting very stressed when she was born she was decaying how lucky I am to be here unlike poor Savita RIP

... this is not healthcare.

That has to be one of the messed up things I've ever read in my life. How could anyone defend having a situation where any woman would have to go through such torture? :mad:

Rev Hellfire

I guess this creates an interesting dilemma for medical staff, if they do abort are they opening themselves up for disciplinary action and/or being sued?

pauldla

robp wrote: »

Of course. Its completely premature to shout that its medical negligence but thats my personal suspicion. We need to wait there is clarity. If we are to believe the Irish Times report she died because antibiotics were withheld for too long. Of course the pro-choice lobby is less interested in considering these details and more interested in using the case to push legal change.

Nothing to do with the miscarrying pregnancy, then? :mad:

Why did she need the antibiotics, Rob?

28064212

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I guess this creates an interesting dilemma for medical staff, if they do abort are they opening themselves up for disciplinary action and/or being sued?

I think they'd be more worried about criminal prosecution, before the civil aspect comes into it

Bannasidhe

robp wrote: »

Of course. Its completely premature to shout that its medical negligence but thats my personal suspicion. We need to wait there is clarity. If we are to believe the Irish Times report she died because antibiotics were withheld for too long. Of course the pro-choice lobby is less interested in considering these details and more interested in using the case to push legal change.

You mean the change the Irish people voted for in 1992 which has been delayed due to people like you?

Savita Halappanavar died in agony. This was completely preventable.

The fetus was not viable. Nothing could have changed that. Not antibiotics, not waiting to see. Nature had decided this fetus would not survive and science could do nothing about it

Science could have saved Savita Halappanavar's life but the law prevented it.

She intended to have more children - so Mr Pro-Life, not only was her life thrown away, so were the lives of the children she intended to have in the future - why, because an nonviable fetus had a heart-beat.

How dare you accuse other's of seeking to score political points out of this.

How very dare you!

You and your kind have been playing politics with women's lives for decades and now you all have blood on your hands.

Penn

robp wrote: »

If we are to believe the Irish Times report she died because antibiotics were withheld for too long.

Could you link to or quote that section, please? It's funny, because I saw Idé Nic McMhathúna post essentially the same thing on the Youth Defence Facebook page, yet the only mention of antibiotics I saw on the Irish Times article was this:

“That evening she developed shakes and shivering and she was vomiting. She went to use the toilet and she collapsed. There were big alarms and a doctor took bloods and started her on antibiotics.

(Source: http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2012/1114/1224326575203.html)

That doesn't say that they were late in starting her on antibiotics. She may not have needed antibiotics before that, or she may have been on different antibiotics, and given her collapse, was then started on different antibiotics.

Do you have a link to the aforementioned report, or are you just copying what Idé Nic McMhathúna said?

Idé Nic McMhathúna of course, being a director at "The Life Institute"
http://ie.linkedin.com/pub/ide-nic-mhathuna/44/9a1/86b
http://www.thelifeinstitute.net/
And The Life Institute just so happens to share the exact same address as Youth Defence.

kylith

robp wrote: »

Of course. Its completely premature to shout that its medical negligence but thats my personal suspicion. We need to wait there is clarity. If we are to believe the Irish Times report she died because antibiotics were withheld for too long. Of course the pro-choice lobby is less interested in considering these details and more interested in using the case to push legal change.

Whether she had received antibiotics or not she would still have been left in agony for days because the foetus hadn't quite finished dying yet. And it most certainly was dying, there is no hope of saving a 17 week foetus when the amniotic sac has ruptured.

If the doctors' hands weren't tied by the law this woman could have had the pregnancy terminated as soon as it became clear that it was unviable and she would probably be home now, distraught for the loss of a child, but alive.

robp

Rev Hellfire wrote: »

I guess this creates an interesting dilemma for medical staff, if they do abort are they opening themselves up for disciplinary action and/or being sued?

The medical council guidelines are clear as to how doctors can act to treat women in pregnancy, and not acting is an offense. Why these guidelines were not followed, no one is sure. No one, not Youth Defense, the PLC or any other pro-life group would never condone any doctors actions which are reckless to a women's life. It is unconceivable who would criticise a doctor who followed the Medical Council guide lines. Savita should not have died.


Irish times link

pauldla wrote: »

Nothing to do with the miscarrying pregnancy, then? :mad:

Why did she need the antibiotics, Rob?

As it is precautionary.

pauldla

robp wrote: »

As it is precautionary!

Words fail me. Really. This is asinine.

Tipsygypsy

I'm so angry at this, I'm angry at every single person who has ever said 'abortion is never medically necessary', I'm angry at the 7 successive governments who have failed to legislate for abortion in cases of medical necessity, I'm angry at each and every one of the TDs who didn't back Clare Dalys bill back a the start of the year because they were waiting for the 'expert group'. I'm angry at the expert group for being so f*cking slow to come back. I feel sick with anger at all of them.

Im disgusted with and ashamed of this country today.

My deepest and most heartfelt sympathies go to the family of Savita Halappanavar.

If I was to say ANY of the other things in my head at the moment I'd be banned.

Penn

robp wrote: »

Irish times link

From that link:

Septicaemia was an unpredictable event which could happen acutely and prove devastating for the affected person, he said. The existence of a foetal heartbeat could lead to a situation where it might not be considered that septicaemia was a possible complication.

However, problems such as septicaemia could “creep up” very quickly and have devastating effects. Infection was one of the major causes of maternal death, he added.

So how did the doctors not act? The existence of a heartbeat (which there was, that much has been established) could lead to a situation where it might not be considered that septicaemia was a possible complication. Septicaemia was an unpredictable event, which could creep up very quickly.

So how did the doctors fail to act?

And by the way, her name was Savita, not Salvita.

Bannasidhe

Candle lit vigils are being arranged for tonight.

I only have the details for the one in Cork - 7 p.m. outside the Opera House in Emmet Place.

Delirium

For Dublin.

via twitter:

Vigil and protest for legislation Saturday at 4pm in Dublin from the Garden of Remembrance.

there is also a protest today at 18:00 at the Dail.

Join us at the Dail, Kildare Street from 6pm on Wednesday 14th November.
Facebook event link

Galway

There will be a candlelit vigil in Eyre Square in Galway at 5pm, Sat to commemorate Savita

Facebook event link

Sarky

robp wrote: »

As it is precautionary!

What the actual f*ck?

Is it really that hard for you to admit that an abortion would have saved this woman's life?

robp

Penn wrote: »

Could you link to or quote that section, please? It's funny, because I saw Idé Nic McMhathúna post essentially the same thing on the Youth Defence Facebook page, yet the only mention of antibiotics I saw on the Irish Times article was this:


That doesn't say that they were late in starting her on antibiotics. She may not have needed antibiotics before that, or she may have been on different antibiotics, and given her collapse, was then started on different antibiotics.

Do you have a link to the aforementioned report, or are you just copying what Idé Nic McMhathúna said?

Idé Nic McMhathúna of course, being a director at "The Life Institute"
http://ie.linkedin.com/pub/ide-nic-mhathuna/44/9a1/86b
http://www.thelifeinstitute.net/
And The Life Institute just so happens to share the exact same address as Youth Defence.

Antibotics are mentioned in at least two of the IT articles. I will stress again no inquest has being made.

Galway University Hospital has released a statement stating that they expect a report within three months.

Burgo

Just spoke by phone to husband of Savita Halapanavar. Asked if he felt his wife would be alive if she had an abortion: "Of course. No doubt"

https://twitter.com/BBCMarkSimpson/status/268686740217294848

Lelantos

robp wrote: »

Antibotics are mentioned in at least two of the IT articles.

Galway University Hospital has released a statement stating that they expect a report within three months.

And maybe criminal negligence prosecutions in half that time!

Penn

robp wrote: »

Antibotics are mentioned in at least two of the IT articles.

Galway University Hospital has released a statement stating that they expect a report within three months.

Mentioned, but "a delay in her getting antibiotics" has not been attributed as a possible cause by the Irish Times, has it? Could you perhaps quote the sections which mention antibiotics? I already provided one, but I'm not sure if I've missed another one?

Obviously, I'd like to get the full picture. Could you copy, quote or link to where it says a delay in receiving antibiotics is a suspected cause?

MagicMarker

Penn wrote: »

Obviously, I'd like to get the full picture. Could you copy, quote or link to where it says a delay in receiving antibiotics is a suspected cause?

I recommend you start taking anti-biotics now as a precautionary measure, as otherwise you may be dead by the time you get that quote.