Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Bannasidhe

Zillah wrote: »

A lot of conservatives are stridently against allowing someone on life support to die. Look at Terri Schiavo. Most of her brain had atrophied and the family still fought legal battles to keep her on life support. There have been cases where women in the US refuse to get an abortion after it has been confirmed that the fetus has failed to grow a brain. Never underestimate how unwilling some people can be to accept pragmatism and reality.

I remember when my grand mother died - she had a DNR (another legal grey area in Ireland) and even though it was medically possible for them to 'bring her back' and for some reason my family decided I was the one to make the call I firmly believed we had no option but to agree with her wishes and let her go.

I held her hand as she died and through the flood of tears and my breaking heart I saw my grandmother mouth the words 'thank you.' It was the single hardest thing I have ever had to do and I hope I never am in that position again. I would have joyfully given 10 years of my life for one more for her, I love her that much - but it was not my choice.

robp

28064212 wrote: »

Of course it would. When it finally got around to an appeal to the High Court, they would strike down the legislation. In the meantime, the doctor would have to endure: years of courts; massive expenses; time in prison; the effective end of his career

I find it unbelievable this would happen as this procedure happens here! In some ectopic pregnancies and sometimes in pre-eclampsia. We don't have the numbers but its no secret. The legal spokeswomen for the pro-life campaign on Newstalk today emphasized the normalness of the procedure by explaining she herself had this done in Ireland. Whose taking her doctor to court? Its a red herring.

kylith wrote: »

In the case of something like an ectopic pregnancy they can remove the affected fallopian tube, which has the side effect of killing the foetus, but since killing the foetus isn't the main object of the surgery that's ok. Of course, no-one talks about how unnecessarily removing part of a woman's reproductive system because they can't just terminate the pregnancy isn't ok.

Your referring to one type of treatment for ectopic pregnancy (a Salpingectomy). There also another treatments which more directly target a pregnancy but still is considered as pro-life compatible.

Proxima Centauri

How today's case is been reported in Australia

http://www.smh.com.au/world/woman-dies-in-irish-hospital-after-being-denied-abortion-20121115-29d3d.html


A YOUNG Indian woman died of septicaemia in Ireland after Catholic doctors refused to terminate her miscarriage because abortion was against the country's law and religious beliefs.

Savita Halappanavar, 31, died last month in University Hospital Galway after three days of agony, the Irish Times reported on Wednesday.

Doctors told her she was losing her 17-week pregnancy, as her cervix had dilated and the amniotic sac had broken, and that the foetus would not survive.

Her husband told the newspaper she begged for birth to be induced but was told this was not possible because the foetal heartbeat was still present "and this is a Catholic country".

jank

Penn wrote: »

Youth Defence on Facebook responding to someone who posted on their page:



"...please stop using her death to further your cause. It's reprehensible..."

:mad:

Much that I don't want to defend youth defense but the past few pages many are doing the same (calling people vermin??), using this high profile death as a stick to beat someone/something with.

We should wait until the facts emerge to pass judgement.

The issues here is that the Dail should go on and finally legislate for the x case and if an issue of mal-practice occurred here then those responsible should be punished.

robp

Proxima Centauri wrote: »

How today's case is been reported in Australia

http://www.smh.com.au/world/woman-dies-in-irish-hospital-after-being-denied-abortion-20121115-29d3d.html


A YOUNG Indian woman died of septicaemia in Ireland after Catholic doctors refused to terminate her miscarriage because abortion was against the country's law and religious beliefs.

Savita Halappanavar, 31, died last month in University Hospital Galway after three days of agony, the Irish Times reported on Wednesday.

Doctors told her she was losing her 17-week pregnancy, as her cervix had dilated and the amniotic sac had broken, and that the foetus would not survive.

Her husband told the newspaper she begged for birth to be induced but was told this was not possible because the foetal heartbeat was still present "and this is a Catholic country".

. For all we know he/she could be a Scientologist and he/she said that silly comment on catholic country in a defeatist manner.

28064212

robp wrote: »

I find it unbelievable this would happen as this procedure happens here! In some ectopic pregnancies and sometimes in pre-eclampsia. We don't have the numbers but its no secret. The legal spokeswomen for the pro-life campaign on Newstalk today emphasized the normalness of the procedure by explaining she herself had this done in Ireland. Whose taking her doctor to court? Its a red herring.

Where in the law does it say it's ok to end a foetus' life when the mother's life is in danger? If a Garda arrests a doctor under the 1861 act, how are they acting incorrectly? If the DPP prosecutes on the basis of the 1861 act, how are they acting incorrectly? If a criminal court judge (who has no authority to strike down laws) finds the doctor guilty under the 1861 act, how are they acting incorrectly?

robp wrote: »

There also another treatments which more directly target a pregnancy but still is considered as pro-life compatible.

The only people who consider it "pro-life compatible", are pro-lifers who can't answer the moral questions their position raises

robindch

Currently the number-one story on the BBC:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-20321741

BBC wrote:

Woman dies after abortion request 'refused' at Galway hospital

The husband of a pregnant woman who died in an Irish hospital has said he has no doubt she would be alive if she had been allowed an abortion. Savita Halappanavar's family said she asked several times for her pregnancy to be terminated because she had severe back pain and was miscarrying. Her husband told the BBC that it was refused because there was a foetal heartbeat.

Ms Halappanavar's death, on 28 October, is the subject of two investigations. An autopsy carried out two days after her death found she had died from septicaemia, according to the Irish Times. Ms Halappanavar, who was 31 and originally from India, was a dentist.

Praveen Halappanavar said staff at University Hospital Galway told them Ireland was "a Catholic country". When asked by the BBC if he thought his wife would still be alive if the termination had been allowed, Mr Halappanavar said: "Of course, no doubt about it." He said Savita had been "on top of the world" before experiencing difficulties.

"It was her first baby, first pregnancy and you know she was on top of the world basically," he said. "She was so happy and everything was going well, she was so excited. "On the Saturday night everything changed, she started experiencing back pain so we called into the hospital, the university hospital." He said she continued to experience pain and asked a consultant if she could be induced.

"They said unfortunately she can't because it's a Catholic country," Mr Halappanavar said. "Savita said to her she is not Catholic, she is Hindu, and why impose the law on her. "But she said 'I'm sorry, unfortunately it's a Catholic country' and it's the law that they can't abort when the foetus is live." The baby's heartbeat stopped on the Wednesday.

"I got a call at about half twelve on the Wednesday night that Savita's heart rate had really gone up and that they had moved her to ICU," Mr Halappanavar said. "Things just kept on getting worse and on Friday they told me that she was critically ill." He said some of Savita's organs stopped functioning and she died on Sunday 28 October.

Substantial risk

University Hospital Galway is to carry out an internal investigation. It said it could not comment on individual cases but would be cooperating fully with the coroner's inquest into Ms Halappanavar's death. The Health Service Executive has launched a separate investigation. Asked if the Irish government would carry out an external inquiry into the death, Taoiseach (Prime Minister) Enda Kenny said: "It would be very appropriate that we don't rule anything out here, but there are two reports and investigations going on at the moment."

The group Precious Life, which campaigns against abortion, said its thoughts and prayers were with Ms Halappanavar's family. In a statement, it said it hoped the investigations would "shed full light" on what had happened. "Ireland's laws protecting unborn babies do not pose a threat to women's lives, according to the obstetricians and gynaecologists who care for women every day," they said.

Abortion is illegal in the Republic except where there is a real and substantial risk to the life, as distinct from the health, of the mother. The Irish government in January established a 14-member expert group to make recommendations based on a 2010 European Court of Human Rights judgment that the state failed to implement existing rights to lawful abortion where a mother's life was at risk. A spokesperson for the Department of Health said that the group was due to report back to the Minister for Health James Reilly shortly. "The minister will consider the group's report and subsequently submit it to government," the spokesperson said.

Funeral

Mr Halappanavar is still in India after accompanying his wife's body there for her funeral.

The Galway Roscommon University Hospitals Group said it extended its sympathies to Ms Halappanavar's family. In a statement the group said its inquiry into Ms Halappanavar's death had not started yet because the hospital was waiting to consult with the family. "In general in relation to media enquiries about issues where there may be onward legal action, we must reserve our position on what action we may take if assertions about a patient's care are published and we cannot speak for individual doctors or other medical professionals if a report were to name or identify any," it said.

robindch

And the spectator rips the country a new hole:

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/alex-massie/2012/11/ireland-and-abortion-cruelty-disguised-as-piety-cowardice-misrepresented-as-principle/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=ireland-and-abortion-cruelty-disguised-as-piety-cowardice-misrepresented-as-principle

The Spectator wrote:

Oh, Ireland! You knew it would come to this. Today’s Irish Times carries the appalling story of the death of Savita Halappanavar, a dentist in Galway, who died in hospital largely as a consequence of being denied an abortion. As the paper reports, Mrs Halappanavar:

include the article above

So there you have it. This Is A Catholic Country. I don’t imagine this was said as a boast; more probably it was accompanied by a measure of apologetic shoulder-shrugging. Of course one cannot be sure of this. What is certain, however, is that something like this was likely to happen at some point. It was just a matter of time; the unavoidable consequence of abortion laws that are cruelty disguised as piety, cowardice misrepresented as principle.

Of course the doctors could not have predicted that their patient would contract septicaemia, far less that she would die from it. However they must have known that the longer it took for her to miscarry the greater the health risks to which she must necessarily be exposed. Better, however, for Mrs Halapannavar to suffer agonies than permit the merciful termination of a doomed pregnancy. This Is A Catholic Country, after all.

Mrs Halapannavar’s pitiful position was that, despite being in great pain, she wasn’t sufficiently ill to qualify for an abortion. If she had been dying, doctors would have been permitted to privilege her life above that of her unborn child. The Irish constitution permits a “termination” in cases where the mother’s life – as distinct from her health – is at risk. Clearly, doctors did not think Mrs Halapannavar’s life was in danger. Equally likely: this delay helped kill her.

And all to permit an unviable fetus to perish naturally. Perhaps terminating the pregnancy sooner would have brought its own complications. They could scarcely have been graver than those that followed the failure to assist Mrs Halappanavar. For decades Ireland has pretended that abortion does not exist. But it does. Thousands of Irish women travel to England each year to have their pregnancies terminated. Irish abortion is a reality; it just doesn’t happen on Irish soil.

Dail Eireann has had twenty years to pass legislation clarifying just when and in what circumstances women in Ireland can legally have an abortion. The X Case – which, you will recall, reintroduced internment for (raped) 14 year old girls (as Irish Times cartoonist Martyn Turner famously put it) – was 20 years ago. Yet no legislation followed. Seven governments have had the chance to legislate; seven governments have ducked the issue. But it won’t go away, despite everyone’s best efforts to bury the issue in some Longford or Roscommon bog.

The Taioseach’s response this morning was hardly impressive either: “Anything that we do will not bring back the good woman that has passed away“. True but also not far short of: Stuff happens, doesn’t it? And that has traditionally been the precursor to learning lessons (but not, heaven forbid, implementing them) and, above all, moving on to something, anything else.

I dare say Enda Kenny would, in ordinary circumstances, welcome a distraction from economic matters. Abortion, of course, is no ordinary issue. It now seems inconvenient that just a few weeks ago the Taoiseach waved the matter away: ‘I think that this issue is not of priority for government now’.

Well it is now. Even, nay especially, because This Is A Catholic Country.

Bannasidhe

robp wrote: »

. For all we know he/she could be a Scientologist and he/she said that silly comment on catholic country in a defeatist manner.

Some more straws for you to clutch at

robp

28064212 wrote: »

Where in the law does it say it's ok to end a foetus' life when the mother's life is in danger? If a Garda arrests a doctor under the 1861 act, how are they acting incorrectly? If the DPP prosecutes on the basis of the 1861 act, how are they acting incorrectly? If a criminal court judge (who has no authority to strike down laws) finds the doctor guilty under the 1861 act, how are they acting incorrectly?


The only people who consider it "pro-life compatible", are pro-lifers who can't answer the moral questions their position raises

Can you answer the more important question of why it hasn't happened in the 20 years since the X case? A garda could arrest 95% of the Irish population untill 2005 for not possessing a longbow but its ridiculous to say that there was a a real risk that this mad scenario would happen. A doctor in this event would have the full backing of the medical council who are extremely power organisation. The case would be thrown out of the courts with the backing of 99% of the population.

28064212

robp wrote: »

Can you answer the more important question of why it hasn't happened in the 20 years since the X case? A garda could arrest 95% of the Irish population untill 2005 for not possessing a longbow but its ridiculous to say that there was a a real risk that this mad scenario would happen. A doctor in this event would have the full backing of the medical council who an extremely power organisation. The case would be thrown out of the courts with the backing of 99% of the population.

Can you provide a link to this "longbow" law? A cursory google doesn't throw anything up about it being repealed in 2005.

And you didn't answer any of my questions:
Where in the law does it say it's ok to end a foetus' life when the mother's life is in danger? If a Garda arrests a doctor under the 1861 act, how are they acting incorrectly? If the DPP prosecutes on the basis of the 1861 act, how are they acting incorrectly? If a criminal court judge (who has no authority to strike down laws) finds the doctor guilty under the 1861 act, how are they acting incorrectly?

jank

robindch wrote: »

And the spectator rips the country a new hole:

As an aside, always find it strange the constant need to find out what "others" think of us. Small nation syndrome I think. I noticed they do it a lot in New Zealand as well when I lived there. Like trying to find a constant need of approval due to deep national insecurities.

robindch

jank wrote: »

Much that I don't want to defend youth defense but the past few pages many are doing the same (calling people vermin??), using this high profile death as a stick to beat someone/something with.

Two things to note:

1. A moderator warning has already been issued about the "vermin" comment and one other one you missed.

2. It's utterly repugnant that instead of demonstrating the slightest sympathy for a woman who died needlessly, or doing something -- anything -- to help ensure that this never happens again, the most vocal of the no-side instead appear to retreat into a parallel universe where the dead woman and her grieving family do not exist and only "political agendas" and weird allegations of "beating" do. The callousness is chilling, even by the cryogenic standards of the religious:

http://www.thejournal.ie/savita-youth-defence-abortion-674078-Nov2012

robindch

jank wrote: »

Like trying to find a constant need of approval due to deep national insecurities.

I must have missed the bit that approved of Ireland in the Australian article.

Could you point out which bit it is or withdraw your immature comment?

robp

28064212 wrote: »

Can you provide a link to this "longbow" law? A cursory google doesn't throw anything up about it being repealed in 2005.

And you didn't answer any of my questions:
Where in the law does it say it's ok to end a foetus' life when the mother's life is in danger? If a Garda arrests a doctor under the 1861 act, how are they acting incorrectly? If the DPP prosecutes on the basis of the 1861 act, how are they acting incorrectly? If a criminal court judge (who has no authority to strike down laws) finds the doctor guilty under the 1861 act, how are they acting incorrectly?

Here is the law. There are many like it. http://www.faduda.net/eccentric/madlaw.html
Interestingly enough in the same spell of law reform in 2005 they abolished
Maximum Wage bill of 1351 which limited the maximum wage of workers. If these laws really posed a threat I am sure some unscrupulous employers would be too happy to apply the maximum wage bill to justify giving their poor employees 14th century wages.

You have to use common sense. Judges are not mad.

Bannasidhe

28064212 wrote: »

Can you provide a link to this "longbow" law? A cursory google doesn't throw anything up about it being repealed in 2005.

Obviously thousands of people traveled outside the State to avoid carrying a longbow (a weapon that takes years of dedication to master btw) and several referenda were held on the vexed issue of longbow possession as that is clearly a matter of vital public interest.

Lingua Franca

robp wrote: »

Judges are not mad.

Really? Looks like you missed some recent rulings, like the judge who is issuing invoices to sexual molestors like he's some kind of pimp.

robindch

koth wrote: »

There will be a candlelit vigil in Eyre Square in Galway at 5pm, Sat to commemorate Savita

Facebook event link

Seems that Saturday's event has been pulled forward from Saturday to now -- this is Eyre Square two hours ago:

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

Seems that Saturday's event has been pulled forward from Saturday to now -- this is Eyre Square two hours ago:



No - there is one in Galway today at 5 p.m. as well.

robp

Bannasidhe wrote: »

robindch wrote: »

Seems that Saturday's event has been pulled forward from Saturday to now -- this is Eyre Square two hours ago:



No - there is one in Galway today at 5 p.m. as well.

There is a student protest in Eyre square today about student fees as well. Is that the one in the picture?

Bannasidhe

Youth Defence's spin here: http://www.thejournal.ie/savita-youth-defence-abortion-674078-Nov2012/

Am not going to quote it as it made me sick.

If one of those hypocritical ****ers comes near me I may forget that I am non-violent :mad:

Bannasidhe

robp wrote: »

Bannasidhe wrote: »

There is a student protest in Eyre square today about student fees as well. Is that the one in the picture?

No. I have friends at it.

robindch

robp wrote: »

There is a student protest in Eyre square today about student fees as well. Is that the one in the picture?

Seems it started out as a planned march against student cuts, but turned into a protest against the government's failure to legislate to save a woman's life.

That's according to people who are there anyway. I'm in Dublin and heading around the corner to the protest outside the Dail at six this evening.

robindch

"Oh, that report! Showed up last night, guv. Nothing at all to do with learning what the headlines were going to be like today":

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-expert-group-delivered-abortion-report-last-night-574183.html

kylith

I can't make it to the Dail this evening, or on Saturday

Robin, you're my designated representative, ok?

wp_rathead

Brilliant post in the comment section of that article Bannasidhe linked

James Connolly wrote:

As I have explained in other threads today, the death of Ms Praveen Halappanavar was totally preventable had she received appropriate care immediately.

Had she turned up to a hospital in a state whereby abortion were legally available with the symptoms she was showing (bleeding, amniotic fluid leaking, sore back), she would have been offered termination upon presentation at that hospital.

Had she refused such a procedure which is her right she would have had termintation of the pregnancy recommended a period of time later, had the miscarriage still not carried through. Had she refused this, which is still her right, emergency termination of the pregnancy would have taken place thereafter, upon the delayed passing of the foetus.

In this case had she waited until it was an emergency to terminate the pregnancy, she would already have been septic, her organs would already have been going into shut down, and any intervention as a result of the delayed termination of the pregnancy would most likely have still resulted in the death of both mother and baby.

In Ireland, it is illegal to offer termination of pregancy as a standard procedure. It is also illegal to offer abortion as a semi-elective procedure. You cannot under any circumstances carry out a termination of pregnancy until it is a fully blown emergency. In the case of miscarriage, waiting until the situation is emergent, rather than elective/semielective, is dangerous, and as is now seen, fatal to the mother.

This woman most likely died as a result of septic shock, which is essentially blood poisoning, most likely had she received timely medical care she would still be alive.
It is a thundering disgrace that this has ever been allowed happen, but the sad reality is that if you do not legislate for termination of pregnancy, you tie the hands of very capable people who could very well have saved the life of a young woman concerned.

Youth Defence, and other groups that have led opposition to termination have blood on their hands, and they should never be allowed forget this. The legislation that is in existence does nothing to save the mother or the foetus, it does nothing to protect the medical staff or the nursing staff. The only interest it protects is those of interest groups, nobody else.

My sincerest condolonces to the families involved, it is a great loss, but sadly, a preventable one, if those of us who are in a position to help and care were allowed to provide full and proper care, instead of idly standing by and watching mothers die.

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

Seems it started out as a planned march against student cuts, but turned into a protest against the government's failure to legislate to save a woman's life.

That's according to people who are there anyway. I'm in Dublin and heading around the corner to the protest outside the Dail at six this evening.

Vigil in Limerick - Bedford Row at 6 p.m.

Obliq

For sure going to the main Galway vigil on Saturday. I'd like to go tonight to Limerick or Galway but can't move for children.

Undergod

Can someone give me a breakdown of what happened with previous two referenda on abortion in this country?

As I understand it, the one from the early 90s has had legislation, but the 25th amendment has not yet had legislation passed. What did the various referenda ask?

eyescreamcone

Anything planned for Cork tonight???