Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

_GOD_

Undergod wrote: »

Can someone give me a breakdown of what happened with previous two referenda on abortion in this country?

As I understand it, the one from the early 90s has had legislation, but the 25th amendment has not yet had legislation passed. What did the various referenda ask?

25th amendment was defeated. That is why no legislation has been passed. It was to remove the risk of suicide as a reason to allow an abortion and the pro life lobby lost

Before that there was the 12th, 13th and 14th amendments held on the same day in 92.

12th was to say that suicide should not be considered a reason to allow abortion (similar to 25th) and was defeated

13th was the right to travel to procure an abortion abroad and was approved

14th was the right to information on abortion which was approved.

The x case judgement said that abortion was permisable in law if the mothers life is in jeapordy. But no legislation has been forthcoming on that. Its similar to the blasphemy law, the constitution said blasphemy was punishable by law, but there were no laws so Fianna Fail pushed one through.

Essentially the constituion says you have a right to an abortion if your life is in danger. The legislation gives you the mechanism to avail of that right, but there is no legislation. Hence the grey area

Galvasean

It is disgusting how Youth Defence etc. cannot find within themselves the common decency to put their hands up and say, "In this most extreme of cases we were wrong". Instead they cling to their dogma.
A woman is dead because people think the supreme overlord of time and space is completely and utterly opposed to abortion, even in cases where the fetus is doomed to an imminent death regardless and an abortion is the only thing that can save the mother's life.
That is just primitive. There's no other word for it.

robp

Galvasean wrote: »

It is disgusting how Youth Defence etc. cannot find within themselves the common decency to put their hands up and say, "In this most extreme of cases we were wrong". Instead they cling to their dogma.
A woman is dead because people think the supreme overlord of time and space is completely and utterly opposed to abortion, even in cases where the fetus is doomed to an imminent death regardless and an abortion is the only thing that can save the mother's life.
That is just primitive. There's no other word for it.

In fairness we are all human here. This case has shocked and saddened everyone. No one wanted this tragedy to happen. No one is happy that this medic took this course of action that led to this woman's death. Misrepresenting groups won't reveal the truth.
I took this quote from their site

Medical Council guidelines are very clear in obliging doctors to save mothers in these cases. A thorough investigation must now reveal the full facts as to what happened.

Even Ronan Mullin was on the radio today agreeing that she should have ended the pregnancy.

keane2097

robp wrote: »

In fairness we are all human here. This case has shocked and saddened everyone. No one wanted this tragedy to happen. No one is happy that this medic took this course of action that led to this woman's death. Misrepresenting groups won't reveal the truth.
I took this quote from their site

Even Ronan Mullin was on the radio today agreeing that she should have ended the pregnancy.

Yes but what they'll do now is play a word game and say "This isn't an abortion we're talking about, it's just a procedure". Galvasean is spot on, no matter what heartbreaking tragedy they're exposed to, no matter how clear the circumstances they'll simply plough on, head down entirely apathetic to reality.

Bannasidhe

eyescreamcone wrote: »

Anything planned for Cork tonight???

Cork- tonight 7 p.m. outside the Opera House in Emmet Place.

FB page here: https://www.facebook.com/events/218194501646236/218291928303160/?notif_t=plan_mall_activity

Also a protest on Friday at Daunt's Square at 1 p.m.
Details here: https://www.facebook.com/events/520503561293613/

robp

keane2097 wrote: »

Yes but what they'll do now is play a word game and say "This isn't an abortion we're talking about, it's just a procedure". Galvasean is spot on, no matter what heartbreaking tragedy they're exposed to, no matter how clear the circumstances they'll simply plough on, head down entirely apathetic to reality.

I am not happy they are getting blame for a medical consultant's mess-up. They are responsible for their own actions.

Bannasidhe

robp wrote: »

I am not happy they are getting blame for a medical consultant's mess-up. They are responsible for their own actions.

You mean their actions like claiming there is never a medical necessity for abortion?

Or do you mean their lobbying against legislation which is the will of the people being introduced?

Perhaps you are referring to their media campaign splashed across billboards recently which stated abortion = murder?

Did Youth Defense have no role to play whatsoever in the 20 year delay in legislating for the X Case referendum then? Sure in that case why are they bothering since apparently no-one has been listening?

Galvasean

robp wrote: »

In fairness we are all human here. This case has shocked and saddened everyone. No one wanted this tragedy to happen. No one is happy that this medic took this course of action that led to this woman's death. Misrepresenting groups won't reveal the truth.
I took this quote from their site

Even Ronan Mullin was on the radio today agreeing that she should have ended the pregnancy.

Excuse me? How very well dare you.
We have so called 'pro-lifers' insisting that Savita's death was not due to the ban on abortion when all available evidence points to that very fact. The fact that you are using similar spin and vagueness says to me that you are in the very same camp as they are.
The word is 'shame'.

robp

Galvasean wrote: »

Excuse me? How very well dare you.
We have so called 'pro-lifers' insisting that Savita's death was not due to the ban on abortion when all available evidence points to that very fact. The fact that you are using similar spin and vagueness says to me that you are in the very same camp as they are.
The word is 'shame'.

All available evidence? There is very little but the few words by her poor husband. It is misrepresenting pure and simple to say the named pro-life groups are against treatment that may have been necessary to save her life. By definition its not considered a procured abortion and occurs every year in Irish hospitals. It is not considered an abortion by the Medical council. I am angry about this too you know.

Turtwig

Wait, a medical intervention that terminates the foetus isn't abortion? Well, of course, that kind of fairytale abortion isn't medically necessary.

loveisdivine

So it's only an abortion when YD say so? I would suggest the medical council do class it as abortion, but are afraid to say so because of the probable backlash from pro lifers.

Seems like most pro lifers are more concerned with playing word games, than saving this woman's life.

robp

Choice Ireland have put up a picture of Savita Halappanavar as their profile picture. I wonder what her mourning family feels about it.

I quote a Choice Ireland's friend post on the page.

This will go on until women get as militant as the IRA

Bannasidhe

robp wrote: »

Choice Ireland have put up a picture of Savita Halappanavar as their profile picture. I wonder what her mourning family feels about it.

I quote a Choice Ireland's friend post on the page.

I wonder how women who have had miscarriages feel about YD's posters?

Don't even try and claim the high moral ground here.

The beliefs of you and your like led to the death of an innocent woman.

Mark Hamill

Sin City wrote: »

Indeed, even nurses would probably (could be wrong) be able to check fetal hearbeat (think night shift etc) if the doc declared it deceased and the nurse was just checking for whatever reason and found a heartbeat the the doc would surely be in trouble.

Remember recently there was a case where the medical professionals wrongly declared fetuses as both non viable and dead, and demanded that the mothers terminate, where it was found by a second opinion that the equipment used in the decesions were faulty, not to mention the Martin Corbally case, so the doctors etc would have gurad up against being liable for malpractice or what have you

I guess its obvious I'm not a doctor then . Probably a good thing too. If I had a case where someone was in the womans case, I would have tried to help her regardless.

Bannasidhe

David Cochrane's panoramic photo of the vigil outside Leinster House.

Lingua Franca

It was sickening to see an anti choice spokeperson on the BBC news saying "the government MUST now legislate for cases such as this" after all the campaigning they've been doing recently to get TDs to state publically that they will vote against legislation.

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

David Cochrane's panoramic photo of the vigil outside Leinster House.

The meeting's just breaking up now. Kildare St and Molesworth St blocked off by police. Putting my finger in the air, I'd say between one and two thousand people here. Not bad for 90 minutes notice - let's see if it makes any difference.

Obliq

robindch wrote: »

The meeting's just breaking up now. Kildare St and Molesworth St blocked off by police. Putting my finger in the air, I'd say between one and two thousand people here. Not bad for 90 minutes notice - let's see if it makes any difference.

Nice one:-) RTE just said "over a thousand" at the end of the news, where at the beginning they said a few hundred.

IT-Guy

robp wrote: »

In fairness we are all human here. This case has shocked and saddened everyone. No one wanted this tragedy to happen. No one is happy that this medic took this course of action that led to this woman's death. Misrepresenting groups won't reveal the truth.
I took this quote from their site

Even Ronan Mullin was on the radio today agreeing that she should have ended the pregnancy.

I reject the version of humanity you espouse, you're determined to downplay the seriousness of this woman's death as 'just one of those things' when it couldn't be further from the truth. The simple fact is she would be alive today had she been allowed a termination, end of. It's making my blood boil reading the utter sh*te from YD. What is it about the anti-abortion crowd that they can't predict the outcome of situations like this? There's an element of "wait for the worst to happen before we do anything cos then we'll know we were right to have acted". Reminds me to a certain extent of a friend complaining about the city council putting down speed bumps along a straight stretch of road as "no-one had died" because of excessive speed on it. Like there had to be a death before any action was taken.

Let the lessons be learned from this and legislate for abortion as laid out by the European Court of Human Rights.

robindch

No sign of any YD either. Probably a wise move on their part.

UDP

Just on the way home from the protest outside leinster house. I have never been at a protest before but what happened to this woman makes my blood boil.

There definitely was over a thousand people there. Was refreshing to hear big cheers when there was a call from one of the speakersfor the church to get out of our schools, hospitals and our legislature.

I hope this will be a wake up call for those who think the church are of no harm in ireland.

B0jangles

robindch wrote: »

No sign of any YD either. Probably a wise move on their part.

They are still trying to find a way to spin this to defend their reprehensibly backward views. I think it will take them a while, their few truely reliable posters started this morning with saying that the facts weren't really out there and the news sources were biased - so the usual claptrap they come up with when reality fails to align itself with their stringent views.

Sarky

Unless their statement includes "we really f*cked up here, we were dead wrong, sorry for being such disgusting douchebags down through the years", I don't think it'll do them any good...

Delirium

Front door of Irish embassy in London right now

JimiTime

B0jangles wrote: »

They are still trying to find a way to spin this to defend their reprehensibly backward views. I think it will take them a while, their few truely reliable posters started this morning with saying that the facts weren't really out there and the news sources were biased - so the usual claptrap they come up with when reality fails to align itself with their stringent views.

Don't know much about them, but what views are you referring to?

B0jangles

JimiTime wrote: »

Don't know much about them, but what views are you referring to?

That any abortion that happens in Ireland is not actaully an abortion, it's a standard medical procedure that coincedentally resulted in the terminatiom of a pregnancy that was detrimental to the life of the woman in question and, unlike the results of the the RSCI poll I linked to earlier which didn't show, as they claim, that the people of Ireland are staunchly opposed to Abortion; in fact only 9% of the Irish population are opposed to Abortion in all circumstances, and that the majority favor legalised abortion in some corcumstances.

swampgas

Have just emailed my TDs to ask why they voted against Clare Daly's proposed legislation. It seems a pathetic gesture though - I want to do more. Hopefully there will be public protests that I will be able to attend. I am so very very angry, I'm barely able to think coherently. What a stupid stupid waste of a human life.

Sometimes I really hate this country.

equivariant

Some religious apologist quoted this from GK Chesterton in the IT letters page a while back.

"If I did not believe in God, I should still want my doctor, my lawyer and my banker to do so"

I think that recent events have put the lie to that particular line of bollocks. My wife is currently 6 months pregnant and attending the same maternity unit as Ms Halappanavar. I would be absolutely appalled to find out that she was being cared for by someone who could say "this is a catholic country" to a woman in that position.

doctoremma

I'll ask over here as I got little joy over there (thanks to those who helped on other questions though).

If I am pregnant, visiting Ireland and suddenly develop early and full-blown eclampsia, will the doctors consider a termination? As far as I've learned, the Constitution says Yes but the law says No. So I die?

B0jangles

doctoremma wrote: »

I'll ask over here as I got little joy over there (thanks to those who helped on other questions though).

If I am pregnant, visiting Ireland and suddenly develop early and full-blown eclampsia, will the doctors consider a termination? As far as I've learned, the Constitution says Yes but the law says No. So I die?

You feelin' lucky, punk?

I wouldn't risk it myself if there was a viable alternative...