Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

The Black Oil

The whole 'this is a Catholic country' thing is a bit strange, and in a way, it's unfortunate that this has been a focal point some of the headlines - nationally and globally. It's hard to know what was meant by this without hearing the full context. It seems to have resulted in some band wagon jumping and premature finger pointing. That said, I think we all, be it through our time in school, the scouts or similar, have heard this line at one stage or another - stock argument for _______. Not that school or the scouts is the same as what happened in this case.

The CC gets a lot of blame these days, some of it rightly so and we all know the disproportionate impact it has had on social and reproductive issues in this country. However, I've less of an issue with it compared to its cheerleaders and apologists - certain political types and columnists (one this morning criticising the lack of balance) who seem to walk around with a sense of entitlement. Freedom of religion, good luck and whatever you're into, but it does not mean you are entitled to interfere with affairs of the State. I'm sure, however, they would say us filthy, intolerant heathens act the same, mind.

The neck of YD to come out and say that using her death is reprehensible. As if they are somehow above such behaviour.

Anyway, what happened is so sad. As is often the case, it may take a terrible tragedy for someone to act, though I'm not inclined to think anything will ultimately change.

Skrynesaver

robp wrote: »

What has this Gianna Molla got to do with Irish law and secular Irish hospitals like UHG?

Because there are, in effect, no secular Irish hospitals, the only non-catholic hospital I am aware, the Adelaide, was closed and all Irish hospitals particularly those affiliation to the NUI , have a catholic slant on their ethics committees.

In this instance the fact that the organiser and chair of the meeting that came up with the Dublin Declaration, Eamon O’Dwyer holds a post as professor emeritus of obstetrics and gynaecology at NUI Galway would seem to indicate that rabid catholicism has a role in the university hospital in Galway.

robp

Skrynesaver wrote: »

Because there are, in effect, no secular Irish hospitals, the only non-catholic hospital I am aware, the Adelaide, was closed and all Irish hospitals particularly those affiliation to the NUI , have a catholic slant on their ethics committees.

In this instance the fact that the organiser and chair of the meeting that came up with the Dublin Declaration, Eamon O’Dwyer holds a post as professor emeritus of obstetrics and gynaecology at NUI Galway would seem to indicate that rabid catholicism has a role in the university hospital in Galway.

A professor of obstetrics and gynaecology has every right to be involved!

jank

Mervyn Crawford wrote: »

3. There should be no financial support by the state for religion. Including tax breaks etc. All expenses involved in running religious organisations to be borne by the membership. All property and finances of religions to be confiscated by the state, except designated places of worship and ongoing donations by membership to run their religious organisation.

4. Formal religious education of children to be banned.

Link:
http://wsws.org/category/eco-reli.shtml

Talk about jumping from the frying pan into a raging bonfire....

This is what pisses me off about this topic.

Skrynesaver

robp wrote: »

A professor of obstetrics and gynaecology has every right to be involved!

To be involved in a meeting which was designed from the outset to deny that medical situations exist which necessitate abortions?

In the light of the issue under discussion, now you're just denying reality, answer my question on the attitude of the <sarcasm>loving mother</sarcasm> church as exemplified by their elevation of a fatally foolish decision to an example to be followed, until then I refuse to engage with you as you seem to have no connection to reality.

Lelantos

jank wrote: »

Talk about jumping from the frying pan into a raging bonfire....

This is what pisses me off about this topic.

Number 4 is spot on though. Enough with the fairytales & the great bearded genie in the sky.

jank

I would not be advocating banning ones right to educate their child in whatever way they see fit. If you do, then your the one who advocates that your own moral choice should be de jour for all. As I said, from the frying pan into the fire. Why do people like banning things anyway, isn't that the main problem?

Lelantos

jank wrote: »

I would not be advocating banning ones right to educate their child in whatever way they see fit. If you do, then your the one who advocates that your own moral choice should be de jour for all. As I said, from the frying pan into the fire. Why do people like banning things anyway, isn't that the main problem?

Formal is the operative word. Of you wish to go to church & practice your faith, fine, no issues. But the ramming of this catholic indoctrination down our childrens throats in school is not on.

robindch

jank wrote: »

Like trying to find a constant need of approval due to deep national insecurities.

robindch wrote: »

I must have missed the bit that approved of Ireland in the Australian article.

jank wrote: »

Exactly my point. An foreign article that is dis-approving of Ireland which then leads us into our usual pastime of mass cynicism of the country.

Way to go, jank.

JimiTime

I get the distinct impression, that there are many who don't really care what the truth of this matter is. Its an opportunity to exploit, and to hell with what the truth may or may not be.

Sarky

They're generally called Youth Defence and Christian fundies. Show a shred of dignity, aye?

pauldla

JimiTime wrote: »

I get the distinct impression, that there are many who don't really care what the truth of this matter is. Its an opportunity to exploit, and to hell with what the truth may or may not be.

Absolutely, and every manner of spin, half-truth, red herring and denial is being deployed. Good thing YD and their ilk have such well-oiled machines at their disposal!

Bannasidhe

JimiTime wrote: »

I get the distinct impression, that there are many who don't really care what the truth of this matter is. Its an opportunity to exploit, and to hell with what the truth may or may not be.

The truth Jimi is that 20 years ago the Irish people instructed the State to allow terminations when required to save the life of the mother.

The truth is Jimi that every single government since then has failed to introduce the required legislation resulting in a ridiculous situation where termination to save the life of the mother is constitutionally possible but technically illegal.

The truth is Jimi that the Irish State has ignored the stated will of the Irish people and instead decided to listen to a vocal minority.

The truth is Jimi that had the State legislated as it was instructed to by the people Savita Halappanavar would not have had to spend 2 days in agony with a fully dilated cervix leaving her wide open to infection while medical staff, whose hands were tied by the failure of successive governments to legislate, while they waiting for the heart beat of a nonviable fetus to stop.

The truth is Jimi that Savita Halappanavar had a heart beat too. Her life was viable. She died because a vocal minority - most of whom are acting out of a religious ideology - who claim to be pro-life have decided that their wishes trump the will of the Irish people and are willing to see women die.

The truth is Jimi that the religious beliefs of a minority are allowed to dictate medical treatment in the Irish State.

The truth is Jimi that we are seeing the true effect of allowing religious ideology to determine medical treatment. The truth is women die.

You're right Jimi - some people don't really care what the truth is, they are far more interested in imposing their religious beliefs on an entire country.

Lelantos

http://www.indiatimes.com/europe/ireland-murders-pregnant-indian-dentist-47214.html
Not sure if everyone has seen this, apologise if its already been posted.

Penn

Lelantos wrote: »

http://www.indiatimes.com/europe/ireland-murders-pregnant-indian-dentist-47214.html
Not sure if everyone has seen this, apologise if its already been posted.

And you know what, I agree with that headline. The people we've elected to represent us have completely failed on this issue, and because of that, this woman died.

Ireland is ultimately responsible for her death.

robindch

JimiTime wrote: »

Its an opportunity to exploit, and to hell with what the truth may or may not be.

As I pointed out yesterday, the religious are the ones retreating into a paranoid political world of "exploitation", "agendas" and the rest of the usual tired, and very tiring, rhetoric.

Everybody else wants to make sure this never happens again.

PopePalpatine

An excellent letter in today's Irish Times which highlights the hypocrisy of the Government's poor handling of the X case:

Sir, – The untimely and horrific death of Savita Halappanavar highlights once more the crass collective hypocrisy of our political class. Regardless of one’s stance towards abortion, there is a startling contrast in attitudes towards legislating for different constitutionally-mandated concepts.

Your readers will recall the hand-wringing in 2009 of justice minister Dermot Ahern, who insisted that, although it was the last thing he wanted to do, he had no option but to legislate for blasphemy, as court judgments on the Constitution demanded it.

The case which demanded legislation on blasphemy was decided by the Supreme Court in 1999. For those without a calculator handy, that is a whole seven years after the X case similarly demanded legislation to clarify the constitutional position on abortion where there is a risk to life of the mother. – Yours, etc,

CATHAL MALONE BL,

Lisdrum Court,

Newry,

Co Down.

zirafute

There should be a choice for any women to have abortion or not.Just because people are against abortions it doesn't give them a right to force their views onto other people.I am againts abortion myself but I think that laws should be there to ensure that women don't have to fly over to UK to get abortion.And doctors should save the mother instead of letting her die.Were is the justice in that?Two lives instead of one was lost.She couldv'e went on and had ten children.It's really not fair.

Zillah

zirafute wrote: »

There should be a choice for any women to have abortion or not.Just because people are against abortions it doesn't give them a right to force their views onto other people.I am againts abortion myself but I think that laws should be there to ensure that women don't have to fly over to UK to get abortion.And doctors should save the mother instead of letting her die.Were is the justice in that?Two lives instead of one was lost.She couldv'e went on and had ten children.It's really not fair.

Unless one believes that abortion is murder. In which case one might feel entirely entitled to forces one's beliefs onto another.

robindch

Ireland is not receiving much positive press today. Here's a random selection of stories from around the world:

Bikya Masr (Egypt): http://www.bikyamasr.com/80774/india-women-shocked-over-ireland-death-after-abortion-refusal/
Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/11/14/ireland-probes-death-ill-woman-seeking-abortion/
Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/14/savita-halappanavar-death-irish-woman-denied-abortion-dies_n_2128696.html
Los Angeles Times: http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-death-mother-refused-abortion-ireland-debate-20121114,0,7244973.story
New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/15/world/europe/hospital-death-in-ireland-renews-fight-over-abortion.html
New Zealand Herald: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10847524
Reuters (worldwide): http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/14/us-ireland-abortion-idUSBRE8AD1QD20121114
The Hindustan Times: http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/Europe/Thousands-rally-in-Ireland-after-Indian-woman-denied-abortion-dies/Article1-959507.aspx
The Jakarta Globe: http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/afp/death-sparks-criticism-of-irish-abortion-laws/556257
The Star (Canada): http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1287525--abortion-debate-flares-in-ireland-after-woman-denied-quick-termination-dies
The Sun Daily (Malaysia): http://www.thesundaily.my/news/541490
Time Magazine: http://world.time.com/2012/11/14/ireland-abortion-scandal-death-of-a-pregnant-woman-prompts-soul-searching/
Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/abortion-debate-flares-in-ireland-over-death-of-critically-ill-woman-denied-quick-termination/2012/11/14/4b53b4d4-2e52-11e2-b631-2aad9d9c73ac_story.html

Zillah

Oh good God...

Dades

The Health Minister says "he's no evidence that a Catholic ethos prevented a pregnant woman's life being saved by a medical termination of her pregnancy."

Why do certain people keep saying this?

We all know it's the catholic ethos led by their lobby groups that have intimidated seven governments into inaction (where the catholic ethos of the politicians themselves didn't already do the job), despite a mandate from a referendum 20 years ago.

Morag

So I am starting to see calls to appeal the 8th amendment, that legislation from the Xcase ruling will only cover risk to the life of the woman and not risk to her health and it won't cover termination for medical reasons in the case of fatal fetal abnormality.

As it was the 8th amendment which has us in the legal mess as was foretold when it was being introduced.

Bannasidhe

Sharrow wrote: »

So I am starting to see calls to appeal the 8th amendment, that legislation from the Xcase ruling will only cover risk to the life of the woman and not risk to her health and it won't cover termination for medical reasons in the case of fatal fetal abnormality.

As it was the 8th amendment which has us in the legal mess as was foretold when it was being introduced.

That particular campaign was one of the reasons I got the hell out of Ireland in the first place. I could not live in such a nasty, bigoted, judgmental, fundamentalist, hole of a country.

I cannot describe how horrific the tactics used by SPUC were.

A close friend of mine worked in a Catholic old people's home and she protested at the fact that on the day of the referendum the nuns had organised coaches to take the residents to the polling stations.

She was appalled to see people with dementia and advanced Alzheimer's being instructed how to vote. She approached the staff at the polling booth to inform them that many of the people voting were Non compos mentis and were being coerced into voting a particular way. She was told to mind her own business.

Needless to say she lost her job...

seamus

Thanks to wikipedia:
http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/1983/02/17/00004.asp

Alan Shatter made the below closing remark in the debate on the 8th Amendment:

The irony is that I have no doubt, not merely from the interpretation the Attorney General has given but from the other interpretations that can be validly taken from the amendment, that if it in its present form becomes part of our Constitution it will essentially secure a constitutional judgment in the not too distant future requiring the House to enact legislation to permit women to have abortions.

The "irony" he's referring to is that the 8th amendment was promoted as a cast-iron protection against the introduction of any kind of abortion in Ireland.

Given that Shatter now occupies one of the seats with primary control over this issue, I wonder what his opinion is now, and given his exceptional prescience and passion for the debate back in 1983, why he hasn't sought to fix the problem as a matter of priority?

robp

Skrynesaver wrote: »

To be involved in a meeting which was designed from the outset to deny that medical situations exist which necessitate abortions?

In the light of the issue under discussion, now you're just denying reality, answer my question on the attitude of the <sarcasm>loving mother</sarcasm> church as exemplified by their elevation of a fatally foolish decision to an example to be followed, until then I refuse to engage with you as you seem to have no connection to reality.

Interesting that you would make such sweeping judgment of the integrity of a man enormously more qualified on the topic than yourself.

Do you think I am spoke person of the CC? Gianna Beretta Molla has no relevance to anything. I am sure most people wouldn't even know who she is. I didn't till you mentioned her. Now, your questioning my grasp of reality too.

JimiTime

Bannasidhe wrote: »

The truth Jimi is that 20 years ago the Irish people instructed the State to allow terminations when required to save the life of the mother.

The truth is Jimi that every single government since then has failed to introduce the required legislation resulting in a ridiculous situation where termination to save the life of the mother is constitutionally possible but technically illegal.

The truth is Jimi that the Irish State has ignored the stated will of the Irish people and instead decided to listen to a vocal minority.

The truth is Jimi that had the State legislated as it was instructed to by the people Savita Halappanavar would not have had to spend 2 days in agony with a fully dilated cervix leaving her wide open to infection while medical staff, whose hands were tied by the failure of successive governments to legislate, while they waiting for the heart beat of a nonviable fetus to stop.

The truth is Jimi that Savita Halappanavar had a heart beat too. Her life was viable. She died because a vocal minority - most of whom are acting out of a religious ideology - who claim to be pro-life have decided that their wishes trump the will of the Irish people and are willing to see women die.

The truth is Jimi that the religious beliefs of a minority are allowed to dictate medical treatment in the Irish State.

The truth is Jimi that we are seeing the true effect of allowing religious ideology to determine medical treatment. The truth is women die.

You're right Jimi - some people don't really care what the truth is, they are far more interested in imposing their religious beliefs on an entire country.

The truth is, that you don't know what the facts of the Savita case are yet, but wont let that get in the way of opportunism.

Also, if you are talking about being against abortion as a religious belief, then I think you'll find you're mistaken there also.

zirafute

Yes I understand they feel that they have right to force their beliefs but it doesn't mean that they do.We live in a free world and we are should feel free to believe in what we want.And just because religion sees abortion as murder it doesn't mean that it is nor should it influence doctors decisions when saving another life.

jank

Lelantos wrote: »

Formal is the operative word. Of you wish to go to church & practice your faith, fine, no issues. But the ramming of this catholic indoctrination down our childrens throats in school is not on.

Well to me that is not what formal means. In my mind that point was stating a banning of all religious education for any child no matter it was privately funded or publicly funded.

Then again the world socialist website crowd probably cant even fathom anyone having private property/wealth and who fork out for private education so I can see where the confusion lies.

jank

robindch wrote: »

Ireland is not receiving much positive press today. Here's a random selection of stories from around the world:

Bikya Masr (Egypt): http://www.bikyamasr.com/80774/india-women-shocked-over-ireland-death-after-abortion-refusal/
Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/health/2012/11/14/ireland-probes-death-ill-woman-seeking-abortion/
Huffington Post: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/14/savita-halappanavar-death-irish-woman-denied-abortion-dies_n_2128696.html
Los Angeles Times: http://www.latimes.com/news/world/worldnow/la-fg-wn-death-mother-refused-abortion-ireland-debate-20121114,0,7244973.story
New York Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/15/world/europe/hospital-death-in-ireland-renews-fight-over-abortion.html
New Zealand Herald: http://www.nzherald.co.nz/world/news/article.cfm?c_id=2&objectid=10847524
Reuters (worldwide): http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/11/14/us-ireland-abortion-idUSBRE8AD1QD20121114
The Hindustan Times: http://www.hindustantimes.com/world-news/Europe/Thousands-rally-in-Ireland-after-Indian-woman-denied-abortion-dies/Article1-959507.aspx
The Jakarta Globe: http://www.thejakartaglobe.com/afp/death-sparks-criticism-of-irish-abortion-laws/556257
The Star (Canada): http://www.thestar.com/news/world/article/1287525--abortion-debate-flares-in-ireland-after-woman-denied-quick-termination-dies
The Sun Daily (Malaysia): http://www.thesundaily.my/news/541490
Time Magazine: http://world.time.com/2012/11/14/ireland-abortion-scandal-death-of-a-pregnant-woman-prompts-soul-searching/
Washington Post: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/abortion-debate-flares-in-ireland-over-death-of-critically-ill-woman-denied-quick-termination/2012/11/14/4b53b4d4-2e52-11e2-b631-2aad9d9c73ac_story.html

Keep up the good work Robin, Ireland has been bad and needs to be punished! Oh the shame...

Penn wrote: »

And you know what, I agree with that headline. The people we've elected to represent us have completely failed on this issue, and because of that, this woman died.

Ireland is ultimately responsible for her death.

Didn't take long...