Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Obliq

Sarky wrote: »

Oh. Oh wow. Pro-lifers are trying to turn it into a media conspiracy. Just f*cking wow.

You can find links on Twitter if you're really interested. I'm not sullying my keyboard by linking to that filth.

I refuse to read those ...grrrr (grits teeth)......people *cough* anymore. I'm sick to the stomach of it.

I was cheered up today a bit, while plastering posters all over two small towns for the Galway vigil for Savita - I have had at least 10 conversations about abortion and reproductive choice with people I have to admit, I would have imagined to be anti-choice. In fact there wasn't one anti-choice person all day. Except up here of course.

wp_rathead

Micheal Martin (Minister for Health between 02 & 04) has said legislating for the X case would not have stopped Savita's death
talk about trying to squirm your way out of it

Think this lil quote kinda sums up Irish politics:

"Is this a legislative policy issue? It may well be. Is it a clinical issue? It may well be. Is it both? It may well be. That's the point I'm making," he said.

Sarky

What a pathetically non-committal statement. The man is a spineless goon.

jank

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Are you being serious or slagging this time? It's hard to tell. You claimed you weren't being serious right here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=81756890 but you're still at it.

My response to Robin was satricial.

When I said Ireland is not a serious people I meant that we do not take things that matter seriously at all, hence why we are usually bad at governing. Many examples of this here for instance.

Lingua Franca

Ah, fair enough.

whatdoicare

wprathead wrote: »

Micheal Martin (Minister for Health between 02 & 04) has said legislating for the X case would not have stopped Savita's death
talk about trying to squirm your way out of it

Think this lil quote kinda sums up Irish politics:

Well, then, if he insists on taking that stance then he should be informed that there's only the one option left to fully protect women in Ireland - Abortions before a certain amount of weeks on demand.
I bet that would change his tune!

expectationlost

Catholic ethos suggestion dismissed

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/1116/1224326668071.html

see they chose our friend to write that article

which saint was the ward she was in named after?
http://www.guh.hse.ie/Wards_Units_/

Morag

https://www.facebook.com/events/452409004796258/

Vigils tomorrow The Liberty Tree Carlow and The Town Hall Kilkenny 4pm.

expectationlost

http://www.bigbluewave.ca/2012/11/irish-choice-network-behind-savita-story.html

its actually interesting that the some pro-choice activists knew the story before it was published, though the suggestion in the link above that the hse leaked the info just doens't make any sense, they obviously had heard from the husband maybe put him in touch with kitty holland

Turtwig

As far as I can tell Mr Waters didn't even make one reference to the current hot potato of abortion. I'll admit I can't really read his drivel any more so I might have missed something doing my one minute skim through his shyte.

Sarky

expectationlost wrote: »

http://www.bigbluewave.ca/2012/11/irish-choice-network-behind-savita-story.html

its actually interesting that the some pro-choice activists knew the story before it was published, though the suggestion in the link above that the hse leaked the info just doens't make any sense, they obviously had heard from the husband maybe put him in touch with kitty holland

Well you can't get any more reliable than an abortion-obsessed Catholic blog. If it's written there, it must be true.

Lon Dubh

I don't think anyone has posted this article from last September. My emphasis in bold below. They are doing the direct abortion/indirect abortion dance to get around admitting abortions can be medically necessary to save a woman's life. "Clarity" , I think not.

AN INTERNATIONAL symposium on maternal healthcare in Dublin at the weekend has concluded that abortion is never medically necessary to save the life of a mother.


Eamon O’Dwyer, professor emeritus of obstetrics and gynaecology at NUI Galway and a conference organiser, said its outcome would provide “clarity and confirmation” to doctors and legislators dealing with these issues.


The symposium was organised by the Committee for Excellence in Maternal Healthcare, chaired by Prof O’Dwyer.

I]bit snipped[/I....Prof O’Dwyer and a panel of speakers also formally agreed a “Dublin declaration” on maternal healthcare. It stated: “As experienced practitioners and researchers in obstetrics and gynaecology, we affirm that direct abortion is not medically necessary to save the life of a woman.

We uphold that there is a fundamental difference between abortion and necessary medical treatments that are carried out to save the life of the mother, even if such treatment results in the loss of life of her unborn child.

“We confirm that the prohibition of abortion does not affect, in any way, the availability of optimal care to pregnant women.”

In a statement, Prof O’Dwyer also said no treatment should ever be withheld from a woman if she needed it to save her life, even if that treatment resulted in the loss of life of her unborn child.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0910/1224323797477.html

expectationlost

Sarky wrote: »

Well you can't get any more reliable than an abortion-obsessed Catholic blog. If it's written there, it must be true.

i do believe they knew before hand after reading that post.

Galvasean

Wow, the pro-lifers are getting quite desperate in their attempts to steer the focus of the debate. This conspiracy theory is pathetic.

Morag

Maternity hospital chief: Women and doctors need protection

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/maternity-hospital-chief-women-and-doctors-need-protection-574284.html

Prof PK PLUNKETT,Clinical Professor, Clinical Director/ Consultant
Dept of Emergency Medicine St James’s Hospital, has come out as welll on the issue.
http://www.irishtimes.com/letters/index.html#1224326666067

Lon Dubh

Edit: Just to clarify the information below is about a private clinic in Galway, not the public hospital currently in the news.

seamus wrote: »

Hadn't heard of this, but it's a bit unbelievable that in this day and age a medical facility would allow a religious order to have any kind of dictation over what is and isn't practiced there.
http://www.independent.ie/health/ideology-reason-why-doctor-was-suspended-from-private-clinic-119745.html

In the interests of full clarity, I'm not sure whether that gyno's specific case was religion related. The claim by the clinic was that she was suspended because of complications following two operations, not because of religion. That same doctor later had a €580,000 judgement against her for "medical misadventure" and in 2010 was suspended for 12 months by the medical council for "medical misconduct". So the clinic may have been right in that case.

Ignoring that doctor however, the below piece seems to have been uncontested:

A memo issued by Dr McWeeney to consultants at the clinic on November 29, 2004, stated: "No procedures offensive to the Catholic Church can be undertaken at the Galway Clinic."

Which to me, is quite stunning. If someone attempted to open a medical facility which directed its staff to not perform any procedure which would be offensive to Jehovahs Witnesses, they would be shut down fairly sharpish. Medical practice should require all doctors to act in the patients best interests. All other interests and priorities should be recinded, and any doctor who fails to do so should be permanently struck off. That trust is the very basis of the patient-doctor relationship.

Thanks for finding that. Yes it is quite stunning. I thought it was ironic as well that they were banging on about a Catholic Ethos, as if they were really moral, but at the end of the day that clinic is there purely to make money off the backs of sick people. If you don't have money to pay for consultations/treatments, and/or insurance to cover it, they won't be interested in helping you part with your cash

Morag

expectationlost wrote: »

http://www.bigbluewave.ca/2012/11/irish-choice-network-behind-savita-story.html

its actually interesting that the some pro-choice activists knew the story before it was published, though the suggestion in the link above that the hse leaked the info just doens't make any sense, they obviously had heard from the husband maybe put him in touch with kitty holland

Galway Pro Choice's press release on it went live Tuesday at 23:46
https://www.facebook.com/GalwayProChoice/posts/379753642107027

That press release was the first of the real information to hit online,
it was reblogged and tweeted with minutes.
Galway is where the couple were from.

Lingua Franca

That's the big media conspiracy mentioned earlier. I wouldn't mind seeing a screenshot of this email. I heard nothing from ICN about this case until Wednesday.

Morag

Well she died the end of October during the month the RCC called the Month for life,
her husband had done interviews before the story broke Wednesday and those would have to been fact checked beforehand. First I knew of what had happened was Vincent Brown reading out the front of the newspapers and then the press release.

Lingua Franca

Out of interest, I googled about a bit to see if the head of department consultant in Galway University hospital was actively pro life, like Eamon O'Dwyer.

He's not.

This is from 2002.

Statement by medical experts calling for a NO vote


The No side in the referendum campaign has received a significant last-minute boost with a group of 25 obstetricians and gynaecologists calling for a No vote in tomorrow's poll.

The group includes three former Masters of maternity hospitals and three professors.

The joint call by the obstetricians has dented yesterday's declaration by the Taoiseach, Mr Ahern, that medical practitioners supported the referendum and its accompanying legislation.

The 25 obstetricians and gynaecologists, in a statement issued yesterday, said that the current referendum would not address any of the reproductive difficulties affecting the women and men they dealt with every day.

The signatories also dissociated themselves from an earlier statement issued by the Institute of Obstetrics and Gynaecology which urged a Yes vote in the referendum.

The signatories include Dr Peter Boylan, former Master of Holles St Hospital; Dr George Henry and Dr Michael Darling, both former Masters of the Rotunda Hospital; and three professors of obstetrics - Prof John Morrison, of NUI Galway, Prof Con O'Herlihy of University College Dublin and Prof Walter Prendiville of the College of Surgeons in Dublin.

"The final outcome of this referendum, be it a Yes or No vote, will not in any way change the current status of the morning-after pill, intra-uterine devices, IVF treatments or pregnancies showing lethal or other foetal abnormalities," they said.

They acknowledged that a Yes vote would support current obstetric practice, but questioned whether a referendum was necessary given that the mother's equal right to life was already enshrined in the Constitution.

"A No vote would certainly not interfere with an obstetrician's duty to do everything possible to preserve the lives of pregnant women.

"A Yes vote will however, outlaw abortion to save the life of a suicidal pregnant woman," the statement said.

They said a Yes vote would allow the State to demand sensitive information regarding women for whom life-saving operations are carried out, thereby seriously infringing doctor-patient relationships and patient confidentiality.

"Our Constitution is central to our national identity and integrity.Do we really want to alter it for so little gain, bearing in mind the genuine uncertainty and confusion that exists regarding the eventual outcome of the proposed alteration?"

The Taoiseach said yesterday that the "strength of the statement" in support of a Yes vote in the referendum, issued by the Institute of Obstetricians and Gynaecologists - "the very doctors whom women rely on during pregnancy" - had been "very important."

Speaking at Fianna Fáil's final campaign press conference, Mr Ahern said he would not be "in a hurry" to legislate for abortion, on the basis of the X case judgment, if the referendum was lost.

"Legislatively, we would have to go back to the drawing board. But I have given no thought to that.

"In fairness, it isn't something that I will do in a hurry," he told The Irish Times.

His final remarks differed from those made by him during Fianna Fáil's opening press conference of the campaign when he warned that a No vote would threaten a liberal abortion regime.

Insisting then that a No vote logically meant the X case would have to be covered by legislation, he added: "I do not want to see a pro-choice, liberal abortion regime in this country."

In a final call for a No vote, the Fine Gael leader, Mr Michael Noonan, warned it was impossible to predict how a future Supreme Court would interpret the wording proposed for adoption in the referendum and the Human Life in Pregnancy Act.

I think we can take his personal beliefs out of the equation.

Lingua Franca

Ugh, found this too.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0915/sunday-times-poll-politics.html

Asked whether they would or would not support a change in law to allow abortion where the life of a mother was at risk, 80% said they would, 14% said they would not, and 6% were undecided.

Hotblack Desiato

robindch wrote: »

John Whelan, a Labour Senator from Tullamore, complained about -- where have we heard this before -- “the attempts by people to exploit tragedies like this for their own political purposes, and their own political agenda”.

John Whelan and his ilk are the epitome of what is wrong with this country. They have no accountability and no responsibility, but the public purse handsomely rewards them for no effort. They should be ustterly ashamed of themselves.

expectationlost

ninja900 wrote: »

John Whelan and his ilk are the epitome of what is wrong with this country. They have no accountability and no responsibility, but the public purse handsomely rewards them for no effort. They should be ustterly ashamed of themselves.

you can thank the labour party for selecting him

decimatio

Nodin

TANAISTE Eamon Gilmore is going to push for full laws to regulate abortion despite Taoiseach Enda Kenny's reluctance to act.
In the wake of the Savita scandal, Labour is cranking up the pressure within the Coalition to bring in laws to allow abortions where the mother's life is at risk, the Irish Independent understands.
The fallout from the death of Savita Halappanavar is forcing Mr Kenny to make a decision early on a divisive issue he had hoped to postpone, senior Government sources say.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gilmore-and-kenny-now-differ-over-abortion-law-3295396.html

Depressing that the plan was to kick into touch as usual......

Rev Hellfire

Nodin wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/gilmore-and-kenny-now-differ-over-abortion-law-3295396.html

Depressing that the plan was to kick into touch as usual......

Give it a week, the fuss will have died down and I suspect we'll find it's back to plan A.

UDP

Any of ye planning on going to this March on Saturday in Dublin?

robp

Its remarkable how in such a short space of time there has been such a dramatic turnaround amongst pro-choice people especially on this forum. At first we heard the continued insistence that this lady died due to the insistence of catholic ideas in Galway University hospital amidst much horrible and hasty bile directed towards ordinary pro-life people.

Then there was the Vincent Brown show that questioned any catholic role
link

Then there was the statement from Minister Reilly
No evidence of Catholic interference in Savita case

Later various obstetricians spoke out

One of Ireland's leading consultants, Master of the Rotunda maternity hospital, Dr Sam Coulter-Smith, said he had no experience of confusion among doctors over whether they should act to protect a pregnant woman's life.
link

Prof Fionnuala McAuliffe said obstetricians who were caring for pregnant women in life-threatening situations were working without specific legislation – but there was "no evidence they are letting people die". She said obstetricians believed they had the freedom to intervene to save a woman's life, even if it meant the loss of the foetus.

Another leading obstetrician, who did not want to be named, said it was his view that doctors were legally protected if they intervened to save the life of a pregnant woman.
link

Today we have the Irish Times story Catholic ethos suggestion dismissed

Many here have already U-turned in response and are now insisting on the theory of an indirect role of religion through no X-case changes. Its one hell of a difference but like the initial theory its backed up with only allegations and not cold and hard facts.

The reality is as facts emerge many more scenarios are possible to explain this tragedy and we may yet see some more awkard pro-choice backpedaling.

Obliq

UDP wrote: »

Any of ye planning on going to this March on Saturday in Dublin?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056808596

Only one there so far

lazygal

Obliq wrote: »

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056808596

Only one there so far

Myself, my husband and our daughter will be marching in Dublin.