Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

DB21

Methody wrote: »

Well for starters, they would not be getting any inheritance money. Also, if they were 21 or over and still living at home, they'd be sent to the nearest bedsit to sort their lives out for themselves seeing as they think they know better than the education and sacrafices I've made for them. A bit of tough love is in their best interests.

Oh my Zod, I seriously hope you're a Poe.

Delirium

Methody wrote: »

Ah yes, it's all the evil Catholic Church's fault (as usual).

What presence do YOU have in Uganda? None. Therefore, you really ought to shut up about things you know nothing about.

care to enlighten us as to what medical qualifications you have then?

B0jangles

Methody wrote: »

You're not privy to the full facts of these cases. The only "facts" I pay heed to are those findings from a court of law or a tribunal. What you read in the paper of broken record aren't facts.

I challenge you to discuss one particular case to back up your opinions.

Ferns Report.

http://www.bishop-accountability.org/reports/2005_10_Ferns/ferns_0_0_title_exec_intro.pdf

Sample quotes:

"Between 1960 and 1980 it would appear that Bishop Herlihy treated child sexual abuse by priests of his diocese exclusively as a moral problem. He penalised the priest in respect of whom the allegation was made by transferring him to a different post or a different diocese for a period of time but then returned him to his former position."

"What was wholly inappropriate and totally inexplicable was the decision of Bishop Herlihy to appoint to curacies priests against whom allegations had been made and in respect of whom a respected clerical psychologist had expressed his concerns in unambiguous terms as to their suitability to interact with young people. Equally inappropriate was Bishop Herlihy's decision to ordain clearly unsuitable men into the priesthood when he knew or ought to have known that they had a propensity to abuse children."

Took less than five minutes.

krudler

Methody wrote: »

The catholic church is made up of people who succumb to human failings. Has done. Always will do. The point is though that the church continually strives for perfection in everything it does so as to minimise the level of destruction that comes as a result of human failings.

Stellar analysis yourself there pal.

Yet the leader of said church claims to be infallible.

Turtwig

You gotta hand it to the extreme pro-life side. They spout the biggest amount rubbish and misinformation, but they spout it so passionately that people believe them.

The pro-choice here needs to get itself organised, learn to stay patient and debate. Otherwise if this were to go to a referendum, I'd fear for them. Right now they have the numbers in the polls, but could they run a coherently organised campaign in the same vein that those on the pro-life are doing? Do they even have the funds and resources to compete?

I understand also that the pro-choice side has another problem; their message is far more complex.

swampgas

Methody wrote: »

Well for starters, they would not be getting any inheritance money. Also, if they were 21 or over and still living at home, they'd be sent to the nearest bedsit to sort their lives out for themselves seeing as they think they know better than the education and sacrafices I've made for them. A bit of tough love is in their best interests.

Seriously, are you still living in 1950s Ireland? What about respecting your grown children as adults in their own right, with their own consciences? Or are you arrogant enough to insist that you know better than them right through their adult lives simply because you are their parent?

Sarky

Oh Methody, you card! Please, don't ever stop typing your opinions here. They're mad.

lazygal

Methody wrote: »

It's the living (i.e. your daughter), not the unborn, who my thoughts are with at this time.

So what's up with your obsession with the unborn if they aren't in your thoughts?

PopePalpatine

Jernal wrote: »

You gotta hand it to the extreme pro-life side. They spout the biggest amount rubbish and misinformation, but they spout it so passionately that people believe them.

The pro-choice here needs to get itself organised, learn to stay patient and debate. Otherwise if this were to go to a referendum, I'd fear for them. Right now they have the numbers in the polls, but could they run a coherently organised campaign in the same vein that those on the pro-life are doing? Do they even have the funds and resources to compete?

I understand also that the pro-choice side has another problem; their message is far more complex.

It's pretty easy to get thousands to Dublin when most of them qualify for free bus travel.

Nodin

Methody wrote: »

Since when do you have an opinion on who the Pope should and shouldn't bless?

The Pope blesses 1,000s of sinners every day. What do you care? You don't believe in any of that "bat **** crazy" stuff anyway...

Seeing as our government sees fit to hold meetings with these people, I'm forced to take an interest.

Delirium

American steward for the anti-abortion event today had his flight paid for

Free international travel? I'm beginning to think I'm on the wrong side of the fence :P

iguana

The Mad Hatter wrote: »

RTÉ website has "an estimated several thousand" (whatever that means) attending the "vigil for life" today. Anyone got any better figures, or numbers for the counter-protest?

Maybe I'm wrong as I just walked past it a little after 5pm but I'd have guessed about 5,000-6,000 at the vigil for life. I'm shocked to see estimated figures more than 4 times that amount. As far as I could see apart from a hundred or so stragglers they were all on Merrion Square South and I doubt 20k+ people were all on that one street. What time did it start at? Perhaps the main crowd was gone when I was there? The counter demo was really small though, about 200-300.

Corkfeen

Methody wrote: »

If the Department of Agriculture can question people at Dublin airport, I don't see why the Department of Health can't. Women travelling to England need help, not abortions.

Irish people voted in favour of allowing people to get abortions abroad. So, t'is none of their business to be perfectly blunt. Ireland also voted in favour of legislating for the X case, decades ago.

Methody wrote: »

The catholic church is made up of people who succumb to human failings. Has done. Always will do. The point is though that the church continually strives for perfection in everything it does so as to minimise the level of destruction that comes as a result of human failings.

Stellar analysis yourself there pal.

It's part of perfection to cover up the faults of the organisation? That's not simply human failings; it's decades of sexual abuse that was allowed to continue due to the 'moral authority' not wanting to damage their rep. That's not striving for perfection............

Methody wrote: »

Well for starters, they would not be getting any inheritance money. Also, if they were 21 or over and still living at home, they'd be sent to the nearest bedsit to sort their lives out for themselves seeing as they think they know better than the education and sacrafices I've made for them. A bit of tough love is in their best interests.

So if they were gay or had an abortion, they would basically become your bastard child........ You are definitely the true moral compass of the forum. :rolleyes:

B0jangles

Methody is gone for now

Maybe if we say some hail marys he/she will come back and answer aaaaall of the questions raised.

Get kneelin' folks.

Silvio.Dante

Wonderful turnout tonight at the Unite For Life vigil. 25-30,000...:)

B0jangles

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Wonderful turnout tonight at the Unite For Life vigil. 25-30,000...:)

What percentage were free travel pass holders? I ask because the last pro-life vigil was heavily skewed towards the extremely elderly.

Edit: oh, they did that thing of getting the attendees to hold the placards over their faces except for the front row of young people. How predictable.

Morag

iguana wrote: »

Maybe I'm wrong as I just walked past it a little after 5pm but I'd have guessed about 5,000-6,000 at the vigil for life. I'm shocked to see estimated figures more than 4 times that amount. As far as I could see apart from a hundred or so stragglers they were all on Merrion Square South and I doubt 20k+ people were all on that one street. What time did it start at? Perhaps the main crowd was gone when I was there? The counter demo was really small though, about 200-300.

That's cos many pro choice activists were taking part in the planning day for the Abortion Rights Campaign.

http://www.irishchoicenetwork.com/1/post/2013/01/abortion-rights-campaign-established-in-dublin-today.html

Some went from the days work to the counter demo, but tbh there is better work that needs to be done then counter protests if we are to repeal the 8th.

By the way http://geoffsshorts.blogspot.ie/ is looking for a pro life atheist to do a guest spot on this blog, if anyone is interested please get in touch with him.

Delirium

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Wonderful turnout tonight at the Unite For Life vigil. 25-30,000...:)

must be nice to have such funding you can ship people to the event, even from so far away as the US

Nodin

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Wonderful turnout tonight at the Unite For Life vigil. 25-30,000...:)

And yet limited access to abortion is still going to happen. 20 years too late, but better late than never.

Sixtus

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Wonderful turnout tonight at the Unite For Life vigil. 25-30,000...:)

The demo filled up one side of Merrion Sq, including a massive platform and video screens. If you think 30,000 people can fit in one street on Merrion Sq, I'm petitioning to rename the park "the Tardis".

Silvio.Dante

B0jangles wrote: »

What percentage were free travel pass holders? I ask because the last pro-life vigil was heavily skewed towards the extremely elderly.

Edit: oh, they did that thing of getting the attendees to hold the placards over their faces except for the front row of young people. How predictable.

Wide range of ages and vast majority were women...

Silvio.Dante

koth wrote: »

must be nice to have such funding you can ship people to the event, even from so far away as the US

American Life dollars are more then welcome to help fund the campaign against intentionally killing unborn babies...:)

PopePalpatine

Does the 25-30,000 include animals other than humans?

B0jangles

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Wide range of ages and vast majority were women...

Where are those interesting shots of the last one, which showed a preponderance of extremely elderly people desperately concealed behind the placards of the 50 or so sub-30 year olds in attendance?

Edit: Actually, where are the large crowd photos of this evening's event showing that the attendees were not very old people? Ancient ladies are not really helpful since it is a widely recognised phenomenon that the catholic church in this country is largely supported by old ladies.

eviltwin

If the "life" of the unborn is so important why don't the people who were marching today picket fertility clinics. I would really appreciate an answer from the pro life voices here becasue its something I never can understand. We have "lives" being taken here in Ireland and nothing happens, no one even mentions it and yet when its the actions of a woman regarding her own body in another country suddenly thats a bad thing. It doesn't make any sense to me.

lazygal

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Wide range of ages and vast majority were women...

[Citation needed.]
How many celibate men in frocks turned up to lobby against women's health?

Silvio.Dante

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Does the 25-30,000 include animals other than humans?

No, the 200 proborts at the back of the stage were not included...;)

lazygal

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

No, the 200 proborts at the back of the stage were not included...;)

What's a probort? Is it a robot that does abortions?

WTF was Mickey Harte doing there? First supporting Sean Quinn, now advocating against women. For shame.

Delirium

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

American Life dollars are more then welcome to help fund the campaign against intentionally killing unborn babies...:)

even when it's medically necessary to protect the health of the woman. Always interesting to see an absolutist stance and the irony that can a result of such a position.

Silvio.Dante

lazygal wrote: »

What's a probort? Is it a robot that does abortions?

WTF was Mickey Harte doing there? First supporting Sean Quinn, now advocating against women. For shame.

Mickey was terrific tonight. He stole the show with his dignity and quiet determination. Legend of a man...:)

lazygal

koth wrote: »

even when it's medically necessary to protect the health of the woman. Always interesting to see an absolutist stance and the irony that can a result of such a position.

Ah, but its a termination, not an abortion when its to save the woman's life!!! Don't ask me, the tiiiiiineeeeee baaaaaaabieeeeee lovers came up with that answer.

Silvio.Dante

koth wrote: »

even when it's medically necessary to protect the health of the woman.

Where a mother's life is in danger all medical interventions are justified to save her life...:)

Silvio.Dante

lazygal wrote: »

Ah, but its a termination, not an abortion when its to save the woman's life.

spot on...:)

B0jangles

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

American Life dollars are more then welcome to help fund the campaign against intentionally killing unborn babies...:)

Great to have it confirmed that American groups have been pumping money into the anti-abortion lobby here. Several irish journalists have tried to get this information and have only received very evasive answers from irish anti-choice groups so far.

Thanks Silvio!

lazygal

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Where a mother's life is in danger all medical interventions are justified to save her life...:)

What about if its a 14 year old rape victim who's threat to her life is suicide? Can you kill a foetus to save her?

Delirium

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Where a mother's life is in danger all medical interventions are justified to save her life...:)

I said protect her health, not that her life was in danger. An ectopic pregnancy is a good example. The child won't survive outside the womb but by your thinking a woman should be forced to carry the pregnancy to term. That's some serious damage to inflict on a person's mind. Cruel and unusual punishment is too kind a term for doing such a thing to another person.

Silvio.Dante

B0jangles wrote: »

Great to have it confirmed that American groups have been pumping money into the anti-abortion lobby here. Several irish journalists have tried to get this information and have only received very evasive answers from irish anti-choice groups so far.

Thanks Silvio!

No worries. we're delighted to receive contributions from many international doners..:)

Silvio.Dante

lazygal wrote: »

What about if its a 14 year old rape victim who's threat to her life is suicide? Can you kill a foetus to save her?

Where is the Psychiatric Paper that states an abortion is a suitable solution in such circumstances...

Silvio.Dante

koth wrote: »

I said protect her health, not that her life was in danger. An ectopic pregnancy is a good example. The child won't survive outside the womb but by your thinking a woman should be forced to carry the pregnancy to term. That's some serious damage to inflict on a person's mind. Cruel and unusual punishment is too kind a term for doing such a thing to another person.

Ectopic pregnancies go to full term in Irish hospitals..?

Are you sure dude..? Really sure...???

eviltwin

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Where is the Psychiatric Paper that states an abortion is a suitable solution in such circumstances...

Why do we need a group of doctors to tell a rape victim she should have an abortion? Can we not trust the women themselves to make that decision?

Delirium

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Ectopic pregnancies go to full term in Irish hospitals..?

Are you sure dude..? Really sure...???

well the alternative is that abortions are carried out here already.

lazygal

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Where is the Psychiatric Paper that states an abortion is a suitable solution in such circumstances...

So you believe a 14 year old child who has been raped and is suicidal should be forced to endure pregnancy and childbirth? Why?

B0jangles

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Where is the Psychiatric Paper that states an abortion is a suitable solution in such circumstances...

Where's the psychaitric paper saying that aborting a rape pregnancy won't improve the state of mind of a 14 year old rape victim?

Have you ever been pregnant Silvio? It's weird, even for someone who wants the baby. It kicks you. Can you try to step outside your viewpoint for just one moment and imagine how horrific that would be for a little girl who was attacked, brutalized, and impregnated then forced to carry that baby until it was kicking her from the inside.

She's already had her own body taken from her and used by someone else, now she has to endure that use for a full nine months.

Silvio.Dante

eviltwin wrote: »

Why do we need a group of doctors to tell a rape victim she should have an abortion? Can we not trust the women themselves to make that decision?

So you agree that no Psychiatrist has ever recommended an abortion as a suitable reaction in such circumstances?

Excellent.

Why would you inflict such an assault on a young girl that also kils her innocent unborn baby..?

Silvio.Dante

koth wrote: »

well the alternative is that abortions are carried out here already.

Try answering the question this time eh..?

Do ectopic pregnancies go to full term in Irish Hospitals..?

lazygal

B0jangles wrote: »

Where's the psychaitric paper saying that aborting a rape pregnancy won't improve the state of mind of a 14 year old rape victim?

Have you ever been pregnant Silvio? It's weird, even for someone who wants the baby. It kicks you. Can you try to step outside your viewpoint for just one moment and imagine how horrific that would be for a little girl who was attacked, brutalized, and impregnated then forced to carry that baby until it was kicking her from the inside.

I honestly don't know how any woman who's been pregnant would want to force another to go through it unless she wanted to. Even an uncomplicated pregnancy and birth has lifelong effects on a woman.

lazygal

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

So you agree that no Psychiatrist has ever recommended an abortion as a suitable reaction in such circumstances?

Excellent.

Why would you inflict such an assault on a young girl that also kils her innocent unborn baby..?

Why would you inflict pregnancy and childbirth on a child?

Silvio.Dante

lazygal wrote: »

So you believe a 14 year old child who has been raped and is suicidal should be forced to endure pregnancy and childbirth? Why?

Very simply, no Psychiatrist reocmmends it as an appropriate response. While at the same time it results in intentionally killing her innocent unborn baby...

oldrnwisr

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Where is the Psychiatric Paper that states an abortion is a suitable solution in such circumstances...

You rang?

Induced First-Trimester Abortion and Risk of Mental Disorder

This study shows that the incidence rate of psychiatric contact in those seeking first-term abortions went from 14.6 per 1000 person-years before abortion to 15.2 after. The 95% C.I. of the two groups overlapped, showing that there is no evidence to suggest that there is any negative psychological impact arising from abortion.
Pregnancy on the other hand is associated with significant increased negative psychological impact with incidence rates rising from 3.9 before to 6.7 after.
What this means is that there are certain cases, quite a few in fact, whereby the psychological health of the pregnant woman would be improved had she been given an abortion as a result of avoiding the psychologial problems associated with pregnancy.

Delirium

Silvio.Dante wrote: »

Try answering the question this time eh..?

Do ectopic pregnancies go to full term in Irish Hospitals..?

I don't know. If they don't then abortions are happening here, which you oppose. How do you rationalise that obvious contradiction?