Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

UDP

Anyone hear Micheál Martin on RTE radio this morning claiming that they were trying to sort out the legal situation of the X case. By that he means they put it to referendum, didn't get the answer they wanted and went back to sitting on their hands instead of taking what the people said and legislating for that fact.
Who are these people giving this guy the highest leader approval rating?

Obliq

UDP wrote: »

Anyone hear Micheál Martin on RTE radio this morning claiming that they were trying to sort out the legal situation of the X case. By that he means they put it to referendum, didn't get the answer they wanted and went back to sitting on their hands instead of taking what the people said and legislating for that fact.
Who are these people giving this guy the highest leader approval rating?

What show was it on UDP? Trying to find it on RTE playback

Found. Ta for the post :-)

PopePalpatine

UDP wrote: »

Who are these people giving this guy the highest leader approval rating?

Reason #17932 for leaving this island. >:(

Bannasidhe

PopePalpatine wrote: »

Reason #17932 for leaving this island. >:(

I left twice

I ended up living in Thatcherland so I came back in time for the Rainbow Coalition.
Then the FF years started again I left again and was present when Australia decided not to become a republic so I came back again.

If I am going to bang my head against a political brick wall it may as well be an Irish wall.

Obliq

TAKE ACTION AND PHONE YOUR TDS TODAY. This is what we're asking you all to do for today and tomorrow: please take 10 minutes and call each of your public representatives - particularly Fine Gael, who as the majority party hold 74 of the 166 seats in the Dáil (84 yes votes are needed to pass a bill) and Labour.

http://www.savitaslaws.com/1/post/2012/11/take-action-phone-your-tds-today.html

Bobby42

Saw my area's FG TD on a news clip yesterday. He's firmly against any form of abortion. Couldn't believe it, won't be voting for him ever again.

Obliq

Bobby42 wrote: »

Saw my area's FG TD on a news clip yesterday. He's firmly against any form of abortion. Couldn't believe it, won't be voting for him ever again.

Phone him and tell him. Seriously. They need to hear from pro-choice people too - they had 56,000 calls to TD's since the summer from anti-choice lobbyists.

lazygal

A TD of mine was also on RTE last night. I've already emailed him to point out I voted for him and if he was anti choice in a vote he wouldn't get a second chance. If I don't hear back by Friday I'll be following up with a phone call.

Obliq

lazygal wrote: »

A TD of mine was also on RTE last night. I've already emailed him to point out I voted for him and if he was anti choice in a vote he wouldn't get a second chance. If I don't hear back by Friday I'll be following up with a phone call.

It's Wednesday they're voting btw.

lazygal

Obliq wrote: »

It's Wednesday they're voting btw.

I know, but there's also going to be a general election some time-he's been told he won't be getting first/second preferences from about ten of us if he's going to run again. I hold no hope for Wednesday's vote as its not a government bill.

Obliq

lazygal wrote: »

I know, but there's also going to be a general election some time-he's been told he won't be getting first/second preferences from about ten of us if he's going to run again. I hold no hope for Wednesday's vote as its not a government bill.

Fair enough. I have no hope for it either, but I'm putting pressure on my TD's to be there at 9pm and represent our constituency. Have also asked them "if not now, then when?" and I expect answers (ha!). Made it quite clear about my vote too. No harm in letting them know

ShooterSF

Must pass on my disgust at my local SF TD for refusing to put his name to the bill. Meath is really such a backwards swamp on this issue. Every night I work lately when the news comes on I have to listen to the most disgusting and ignorant comments from asshole customers. Grrr.

jank

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I left twice

I ended up living in Thatcherland so I came back in time for the Rainbow Coalition.
Then the FF years started again I left again and was present when Australia decided not to become a republic so I came back again.

If I am going to bang my head against a political brick wall it may as well be an Irish wall.

Hmmm, maybe dont go and live in a country with a union jack on its flag if the thought of living under a monarchy detests you so much.
The fact that you ended up back in Ireland (you know the worst place in the world!!!) means that its not as bad a place as some make it out to be.

Bannasidhe

jank wrote: »

Hmmm, maybe dont go and live in a country with a union jack on its flag if the thought of living under a monarchy detests you so much.
The fact that you ended up back in Ireland (you know the worst place in the world!!!) means that its not as bad a place as some make it out to be.

What's your point?

joseph brand

Bannasidhe wrote: »

What's your point?

He wants to let you/ us know he's miserable. He always has a bucket of cold water at the ready.

old hippy

jank wrote: »

Hmmm, maybe dont go and live in a country with a union jack on its flag if the thought of living under a monarchy detests you so much.
The fact that you ended up back in Ireland (you know the worst place in the world!!!) means that its not as bad a place as some make it out to be.

There's plenty of people who live in the UK and are anti-monarchy. Not all Irish ex-pats, either.

doctoremma

old hippy wrote: »

There's plenty of people who live in the UK and are anti-monarchy. Not all Irish ex-pats, either.

Me!

Sarky

Nu-uh, you're clearly unhappy there, and you should move. Jank said so, you're just wrong.

old hippy

doctoremma wrote: »

Me!

Ah, the good doctor is in. It's been too long, doc

Morag

Labour has said they will be voting no tomororw.

https://twitter.com/labour

The Labour Party ‏@labour

we won't be voting for Daly's Bill, the recommendations of the Expert group offer best chance of progress on the issue by

Bobby42

The latest from Youth Defense is
"Labour are in a hurry to legalise the killing of children. They should remember that their vote fell by 30% last year when they came out in support of abortion".

Is any form of reasonable debate completely beyond them?

Apparently legislating on abortion in the cases were there is a risk to the life of the mother is killing children. :rolleyes:.

I suppose they would consider Savita having a miscarriage at 17 weeks was still "with child".

*Bangs head against wall repeatedly*

Galvasean

Bobby42 wrote: »

The latest from Youth Defense is
"Labour are in a hurry to legalise the killing of children. They should remember that their vote fell by 30% last year when they came out in support of abortion".

Is any form of reasonable debate completely beyond them?

Well, considering they tend to get their asses handed to them when they enter legitimate debate, they tend to avoid it.

Bobby42 wrote:

I suppose they would consider Savita having a miscarriage at 17 weeks was still "with child".

Based on the letters I've been reading in the Indo and the Daily Mail over the last few days, the 17 week old fetus is still referred to by many as 'the baby'.

Nodin

Galvasean wrote: »

Well, considering they tend to get their asses handed to them when they enter legitimate debate, they tend to avoid it.



Based on the letters I've been reading in the Indo and the Daily Mail over the last few days, the 17 week old fetus is still referred to by many as 'the baby'.

'de baby' as in 'dey want to kill de babies' or 'dey'd have killed de baby jesus'

Bobby42

One of the pro lifers on the Vincent Brown debate claimed that legislating for the X case will turn hospitals "abortion mills".

Yes, form an orderly queue for your mandatory abortion.

When presented with the fact that countries with legal abortion have actually seen a decline in abortion the "pro lifers" basically covered their ears and went, la la la, I'm not listening.

eviltwin

Bobby42 wrote: »

One of the pro lifers on the Vincent Brown debate claimed that legislating for the X case will turn hospitals "abortion mills".

Yes, form an orderly queue for your mandatory abortion.

When presented with the fact that countries with legal abortion have actually seen a decline in abortion the "pro lifers" basically covered their ears and went, la la la, I'm not listening.

And he asked if we should allow women who are depressed to kill their children :eek: Ho-hum, shouldn't expect anything more from these people but if that is the best they can do in a national debate I almost feel sorry for them. They came across as very stuck in the past and out of touch.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

eviltwin wrote: »

And he asked if we should allow women who are depressed to kill their children :eek: Ho-hum, shouldn't expect anything more from these people but if that is the best they can do in a national debate I almost feel sorry for them. They came across as very stuck in the past and out of touch.

I didn't see the discussion, but there is an issue in there. There simply are question marks over how to implement, in practical terms, the X case idea that someone has to establish if the woman's mental health poses a risk to life.

I think the present Constitutional position is actually pretty awkward. It's not freedom to choose (by a long way), but it's not exactly establishing a clear and sensible boundary, if we were just going to have limited access to abortion.

paulmorro

eviltwin wrote: »

And he asked if we should allow women who are depressed to kill their children :eek: Ho-hum, shouldn't expect anything more from these people but if that is the best they can do in a national debate I almost feel sorry for them. They came across as very stuck in the past and out of touch.

Ah Iona, how I love you! *facepalm*

Galvasean

Nodin wrote: »

'de baby' as in 'dey want to kill de babies' or 'dey'd have killed de baby jesus'

The only thing YD etc. would have aborted is rational discourse...

Morag

Alan Shatter kicked the can down the road this evening re apealing the 8th Amendment,

http://pastebin.com/9C58kJnA

"Whatever action Government takes we will still have in this country one of the most restrictive laws in Europe with regard to the termination of pregnancies. Both women and medical practitioners are entitled to know where they stand and what procedures are available to address the circumstances in which a pregnancy is terminable under our constitutional code. In debating this issue I believe it is of crucial importance that Members of this House do not resort to extreme language. We should be conscious of the impact of what we say both in this House and outside it on women who have miscarried or who have had pregnancies terminated where their lives have been at risk.

We should also be clear on what we are not doing. We are not considering, in any shape or form, abortion on demand as is alleged by some. We are not even addressing nor can we under the current constitutional provision, issues that many outside this House believe should be addressed. For example, whatever decision is taken by Government we cannot provide, in this State, for the termination of a pregnancy resulting from rape in the absence of the victim being suicidal. We cannot provide for the termination of a pregnancy where there is a foetal abnormality which will, as a certainty, result in the birth of a baby unable to survive. The Expert Group Report documents cases of rape victims going to Britain to effect terminations and of mothers with babies who suffered foetal abnormalities such as anencephaly or Edwards syndrome. In the absence of constitutional change there will continue to be a British solution to this Irish problem.

It is also of course the position that a pregnancy that poses a serious risk to the health as opposed to the life of a woman, even where such health risk could result in permanent incapacity, does not provide a basis for effecting a termination in this State. The reality of course is that there is no impediment to men seeking and obtaining any required medical intervention to protect not only their life but also their health and quality of life.

I am, of course, not only Minister for Justice and Defence but also Minister for Equality and it can truly be said that the right of pregnant women to have their health protected is, under our constitutional framework, a qualified right as is their right to bodily integrity. This will remain the position. This is a republic in we proclaim the equality of all citizens but it is a reality that some citizens are more equal than others.

We should not pretend that the limited measures that must now be put in place to satisfy the judgement of the European Court ensure true equality for all citizens of this republic, both men and women. They are however essential to ensuring that pregnant women whose lives are at risk have available to them the medical treatment they require."

magicherbs

Legislating the x-case - grounds for medical termination on grounds of medical necessity - certainly should be done. Women with ectopics and eclampsia all receive terminations as medically necessary.

Psychological / Psychiatric illness - 'suicidal' is not the name of any disease in the ICD-10 as far as I am aware. There is no proof that suicidal ideation changes with pregnancy status. If there is a case of strong suicidal intent in pregnant woman, why not admit her to full psychiatric care rather than abortion?

My problem with both sides is the projection of moral values and simultaneously rejecting the oppositions moral values.

How can 'pro-choice' reject that 'pro-life' consider elective abortion amoral, sinful, wrong, etc.? In the same vein pro-life can consider capital punishment amoral, sinful, wrong?

Pro-choice seem to consider this opinion archaic, derivative of catholic dogma or pure stupidity.

The suicide issue is a red herring really.