Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Sarky

But why is that your opinion? If you don't have a basis for it, it's not a very useful opinion.

goodie2shoes

Sarky wrote: »

But why is that your opinion? If you don't have a basis for it, it's not a very useful opinion.

i disagree.
my opinion is as useful or not as yours' or anyone elses.

unless of course you subscribe to some quasi-fascist doctrine that deems one person's views to be more worthy that anothers'?

Sarky

I could just say "No it's not" as my opinion and it'd be just as valid as yours then, and we'd go round and round in circles without anything getting done.

But it's far better to say "No it's not, because if you can't back up a claim with evidence or logic, any opinion is valid, such as 'white people are better than black people' or 'old people are worthless and should be euthanised' or gods forbid 'Jedward are really talented'". It helps demonstrate why it's not just enough to have an opinion, your opinions need to have reasons.

If your opinions aren't based on something, then they're baseless. Tautological, yes, but baseless opinions are no good to anyone.

goodie2shoes

Sarky wrote: »

I could just say "No it's not" as my opinion and it'd be just as valid as yours then, and we'd go round and round in circles without anything getting done.

But it's far better to say "No it's not, because if you can't back up a claim with evidence or logic, any opinion is valid, such as 'white people are better than black people' or 'old people are worthless and should be euthanised' or gods forbid 'Jedward are really talented'". It helps demonstrate why it's not just enough to have an opinion, your opinions need to have reasons.

If your opinions aren't based on something, then they're baseless. Tautological, yes, but baseless opinions are no good to anyone.

i disagree.

Bannasidhe

goodie2shoes wrote: »

i disagree.

I disagree with your disagreement - but that's just my opinion.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Obliq wrote: »

Agree with you here apart from line in bold. What do you mean here? After all, now is the time to face people with the truth about what pregnant women living in Ireland experience in the event that they want/need an abortion.

I’ll try to quickly set out what I see as the good and bad in that article. First, the good.

… what has been absent from the mainstream media coverage of Savita’s death has been the mass, day-in day-out misery and discrimination experienced by women as a result of the near-total ban on abortion in Ireland. …. the women who call us come from all walks of life. Some of the women we help are in their early twenties or younger, others are in their thirties or forties. Some have children, some don’t. They include women who have experienced domestic abuse or rape, asylum seekers, disabled women, those with wanted pregnancies affected by severe fetal anomalies and women for whom it is simply their choice not to continue their pregnancy.
What these women have in common is that the journey they make to access a safe and legal abortion is a difficult one …

That’s pretty much what I’d say.

If Savita’s family hadn’t bravely made the decision to go public, would her senseless death have come to light?

This is a good point - there's no evidence of any investigation taking place before the case became public.

When, technically in Ireland an abortion is permitted if there is a "real and substantial risk to the life of the mother?"

Yup, loads of people, including the Supreme Court and the ECHR, agree that there's a need to clarify when abortion is permitted today, leaving aside any need to change the Constitution.

Now the bad - by which I mean overstating points, and leaving themselves open to being contradicted because of saying stuff that cannot be supported.

… how many more women in Ireland may have lost their lives as a result of being denied a life-saving abortion. ...A protester at a vigil for Savita hit the nail on the head with a placard stating ‘Pro-Life beliefs killed Savita Halappanavar – Ireland needs abortion rights.’

We don't know this to be the case. We know that 4,000 women go to the UK for abortions. We know that a woman died in the Galway Regional. We don't know, yet, if abortion had anything to do with this. At this moment, for all we know, the real problem was relating to how Galway Regional deal with cases of E Coli.

The other thing that the women who contact us have in common is that they are poor. ... we do know what it feels like to have to say no to her, because we we’ve heard from another five women that day and don’t have the funds to help her.

Just to be clear, from what they've said elsewhere, they hear from maybe one Irish woman a day

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/health/2012/0717/1224320247617.html
… ASN is the only fund of its kind in Europe, and the only network offering help specifically to Irishwomen. …. "In our first year we were hearing from five women a month, in our second year we were hearing from 17 and in our third year we are averaging 28 to 30 women a month."

It's a lot for these people to hear from one person a day, never mind five. Of the 4,000 women travelling to the UK, maybe 300 use this service. In other words, they know nothing about over 90% of the people involved.

This is over-egging the pudding, and presenting a distorted picture of who goes for abortions. Their para quote above sets the scene well. But they just have to overload the misery; yes, finance may be an issue for some women. But if you don't agree to the principle of abortion, you'll hardly agree to the idea that it should be free. And maybe it shouldn't be free - I honestly haven't thought about that.

The key issue, which needs to emerge and needs to shake off all superfulous argument, is that 4,000 women go through a lot of trouble to source abortions in the UK. Why should they be unable to attend for this service here?

goodie2shoes

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I disagree with your disagreement - but that's just my opinion.

i disagree with your disagreement of my disagreement, but i support your right to your opinion.

goodie2shoes

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

In other words, they know nothing about over 90% of the people involved.


The key issue, which needs to emerge and needs to shake off all superfulous argument, is that 4,000 women go through a lot of trouble to source abortions in the UK. Why should they be unable to attend for this service here?

indeed.

some women may well be coerced into abortions by their partners, or because of societal pressure not to be pregnant.

so much for choice.

Bannasidhe

goodie2shoes wrote: »

i disagree with your disagreement of my disagreement, but i support your right to your opinion.

But, and herein lies the crux, I can explain why I disagree with your disagreement.
It's because I think women should have inviolate control over what happens their own bodies.

Obliq

Yes, points taken. I see what you're saying. However, whether or not a woman should be entitled to free abortion services is not really a point, when as things stand, you're looking at having to get to the UK, go private, and stay somewhere, if you can afford to. Those who can't afford to leave the country are who ASN helps, clearly.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

The key issue, which needs to emerge and needs to shake off all superfulous argument, is that 4,000 women go through a lot of trouble to source abortions in the UK. Why should they be unable to attend for this service here?

Absolutely the key issue, and nearly completely unrepresented publically in Ireland (except by Ivana Bacik for example).

Bannasidhe

goodie2shoes wrote: »

indeed.

some women may well be coerced into abortions by their partners, or because of societal pressure not to be pregnant.

so much for choice.

and many women continue with pregnancies they do not want for exactly the same reasons.

Ash.J.Williams

....i just cannot fathom how f**ing lame Ireland is....we must surely be the arsehole of the world

Obliq

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

....i just cannot fathom how f**ing lame Ireland is....we must surely be the arsehole of the world

Now THAT I can agree with at the moment.

goodie2shoes

Bannasidhe wrote: »

But, and herein lies the crux, I can explain why I disagree with your disagreement.
It's because I think women should have inviolate control over what happens their own bodies.

that's just YOUR opinion.

goodie2shoes

Obliq wrote: »

Now THAT I can agree with at the moment.

try living in Syria or Pakistan.

Bannasidhe

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

....i just cannot fathom how f**ing lame Ireland is....we must surely be the arsehole of the world

I am still hopeful we will shortly enter the 20th century - but then I am feeling either uncharacteristically optimistic today or I have gone insane due to the combination of paint fumes, several double espressos and a head cold.

Obliq

goodie2shoes wrote: »

try living in Syria or Pakistan.

As I'm Irish, I can say that to my mind Ireland is the arsehole of the world if I want to.

Bannasidhe

goodie2shoes wrote: »

try living in Syria or Pakistan.

Do you mean countries where the political elite ignore the wishes of the people or ones where a particular religion is allowed - indeed enabled - to dominate the State?

Gosh - wouldn't that be just awful to live in such places....

Bannasidhe

goodie2shoes wrote: »

that's just YOUR opinion.

Indeed it is but unlike yourself I am willing and able to state why I hold that opinion.

Ash.J.Williams

goodie2shoes wrote: »

try living in Syria or Pakistan.

In syria or pakistan you would have a clearer understanding of what is what....then you would in this country.

Morag

magicherbs wrote: »

because it's a misunderstood and emotive term. Obviously nobody who voted that way understand suicidal ideation.

has anyone the figures for pregnant female suicides in ireland? no? didn't think so.

Hard to do with the chronic under reporting of materinty related deaths.
http://www.irishhealth.com/article.html?id=21361

But in other countries it is the leading cause of maternal mortality.
http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/183/4/279.full

goodie2shoes

Bannasidhe wrote: »

Indeed it is but unlike yourself I am willing and able to state why I hold that opinion.

It's still only your opinion.
you see like a lot of folk you are getting facts and opinions confused.

i thought i explained this already.

robindch

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

....i just cannot fathom how f**ing lame Ireland is....we must surely be the arsehole of the world

I'm not sure whether you're just having a laugh or whether you're being serious here

In the offchance of the latter, then I suggest you go visit, say, Russia (rich and dangerous) or North Korea (poor and dangerous). I've been to both -- Russia many times -- and if you think that Ireland is lame in any way, then believe me on this, you have no clue just how insanely stressful and even physically dangerous normal everyday living can be, and in comparison, just how amazingly safe, generous, trusting and plentiful life is here in Ireland for most people.

goodie2shoes

Ash.J.Williams wrote: »

In syria or pakistan you would have a clearer understanding of what is what....then you would in this country.

maybe. (highly disputable imo) but i dont believe that is necessarily a good thing.

LittleBook

Sarah Fisher Blog wrote:

The other thing that the women who contact us have in common is that they are poor. In addition to having to pay for a procedure that women living in England, Scotland, and Wales can access for free on the national health service, women traveling from Ireland and Northern Ireland have to pay for their abortions as well as travel costs and in some cases accommodation. Costs for this range from $600 to $3,100, plus any loss of income from missing work or childcare required. It’s common for women to skip rent payments to pay for an abortion, to have to lie to friends and family to get the money they need, to go to loan sharks, to return Christmas presents, and of course for the ones that hear about Abortion Support Network, to make a phone call to a complete stranger in another country to ask for money. At its most extreme this means that women with money can have an abortion and women without money are forced to bear and give birth to children they otherwise decided they could not afford or were not ready to have at that time in their lives.

I believe "A" in the A, B & C case was forced to borrow €650 from a "money lender" to obtain her abortion.

goodie2shoes

robindch wrote: »

I'm not sure whether you're just having a laugh or whether you're being serious here

In the offchance of the latter, then I suggest you go visit, say, Russia (rich and dangerous) or North Korea (poor and dangerous). I've been to both -- Russia many times -- and if you think that Ireland is lame in any way, then believe me on this, you have no clue just how insanely stressful and even physically dangerous normal everyday living can be, and in comparison, just how amazingly safe, generous, trusting and plentiful life is here in Ireland for most people.

i agree totally.
it's hard to take such statements seriously.
see that's the problem when people present wide sweeping opinions as facts.
they tend to look silly.

Aiel

For yer consideration:

http://www.180movie.com/

Sarky

goodie2shoes wrote: »

i agree totally.
it's hard to take such statements seriously.
see that's the problem when people present wide sweeping opinions as facts.
they tend to look silly.

That's just your opinion.

Golly this is fun! I can say any old sh*t and not have to substantiate it!

Bannasidhe

goodie2shoes wrote: »

It's still only your opinion.
you see like a lot of folk you are getting facts and opinions confused.

i thought i explained this already.

Apart from the fact that it is, in fact, my stated opinion where did I say my opinion was a fact?

What is also a fact is that I stated that in my opinion women should be given a choice as to whether they want to be pregnant or not- call that abortion on demand if you wish - as they should have inviolate control over their own bodies - you, however, stated that in your opinion you are against 'abortion on demand' but failed to say why...

See the difference?

Like a 'lot of folk' you don't seem to like being asked to explain your position in a discussion forum.

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