Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Sin City

Zillah wrote: »

The rights of a living, breathing, thinking human being with a personality vs the rights of a minuscule blob of goo with no more sentience than my phone. This is an easy choice for me. I think early term abortions should be entirely at the woman's discretion.

do new borns think ?.or have a personality?
should they be terminated as they are not by your definition worthy of human rights ?

Sin City

UDP wrote: »

It is while anything growing inside is 100% physically dependant on the host.

a newborn baby is still physicaly relient on its mother

and seeing as.its.not relient on its own more of a reason to protect them ?

Bannasidhe

Sin City wrote: »

it is indeed your body, but its.not.just your body if you know what I mean.

No. It is just my body.

The fact that I have the capacity to have a temporary lodger does not take away from that.

It is, and always will be, my body.

doctoremma

Sin City wrote: »

should they be terminated as they are not by your definition worthy of human rights ?

No.

But we allow women to terminate when their human rights (to health and happiness) will be overridden by the rights (imagined or actual) of the baby.

Sin City

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No. It is just my body.

The fact that I have the capacity to have a temporary lodger does not take away from that.

It is, and always will be, my body.

im sorry but you have a responsiblity to that life you had a hand in creating .,a life that not only has.human dna , but a lot of your dna . the fetus didnt create itself , you created it , so should too be responsible for.it ?

UDP

Sin City wrote: »

a newborn baby is still physicaly relient on its mother

Its not. Its reliant on another human. It neither has to be the baby's mother nor does it even have to be an adult (or it could be an animal but I am a bit skeptical of the many reports of it happen but I suppose it is possible just highly unlikely).

Sin City wrote: »

and seeing as.its.not relient on its own more of a reason to protect them ?

Completely missing the point. I am talking about physically dependant as in if the host (mother) dies the fetus dies with no chance of surviving. Understand what I mean?

robindch

MagicMarker wrote: »

Ah here for [DELETED] sake [...]

[DELETED]!

christmas2012

Its these flippant attitudes that make me realise these people are not mature enough to have sex or face the music when it comes to getting pregnant and having a baby..

Bannasidhe

Sin City wrote: »

a newborn baby is still physicaly relient on its mother

and seeing as.its.not relient on its own more of a reason to protect them ?

No. A new born is reliant. Any adult will do.



And yes - newborns do have personalities who pretty quickly demonstrate they are aware of and interacting with the world -'I'm hungry' - WAAAHHHHH!
'I'm tired- WAAAAHHHH!!!'

Sin City - since you are go determined to protect the unborn, may I ask if you are a pacifist? Does your concern to preserve life extend to the born?

Mark Hamill

Penn wrote: »

Why is she responsible for that life though when it's something she did not choose and did not want, and actively tried to avoid? Isn't that unfair?

Well, presumably the woman chose to do the act that created the life, she just didn't intend to get get pregnant and so tried to drive the chances down with contraception. Is it unfair that only one person (usually) wins the lottery? Everyone knows the odds, its random chance as to who wins.

Penn wrote: »

If I needed a kidney transplant and through some coincidence you were in the hospital and they discovered you were a match, are you then responsible for my life? Is it your responsibility to donate one of your kidneys to me even though you don't want to?

Did "I" put you in the position where you need "my" kidney, without any consent of your behalf?

I look at it like a lottery. You have 1 million chances, 999,999 thousand times you win €1000. But the other one time, you have to give your kidney to someone who is comatose for 9 months, someone who has no idea about the lottery at all. Most people just keep winning the €1000, all their lives, until they specifically feel like giving the kidney. Some people, though, are unlucky and may lose the kidney when they dont want to, first time the play even. This is not unfair, its just unlucky. Claiming no responsibility at all for a lottery you choose to play or blaming the comatose person, who has no notion of the lottery, and hasn't chosen your kidney nor to be comatose in the first place, is the wrong way to look at it.

christmas2012

Sin City - since you are go determined to protect the unborn, may I ask if you are a pacifist? Does your concern to preserve life extend to the born?

may in interject and ask why do you make assumptions that it only extends to the born tell me?

UDP

christmas2012 wrote: »

Its these flippant attitudes that make me realise these people are not mature enough to have sex or face the music when it comes to getting pregnant and having a baby..

So the only solution to that is selecting people to become sterilised or else deal with the fact that there will be those who will have sex that are not mature enough to understand the consequences, there will be those who will take the risk of having sex using contraceptives that are 99%+ effective but who are not in a position either medically, mentally or otherwise to go through with a pregnancy.

seamus

christmas2012 wrote: »

may in interject and ask why do you make assumptions that it only extends to the born tell me?

I think you misunderstand.

The point is that so many of those who would vehemently fight to protect the unborn under all circumstances, don't seem to have the same mentality when it comes to sending people off to fight wars, sending in bombers to annihilate a neighbourhood or condemning criminals to death.
They will weep over an abortion but say "good riddance" when a terrorist is shot dead.

Somehow for many people the unconditional right to life only seems to apply to the unborn and not the born.

Bannasidhe

christmas2012 wrote: »

Its these flippant attitudes that make me realise these people are not mature enough to have sex or face the music when it comes to getting pregnant and having a baby..

I can have all the sex I want with my partner and not 'face the consequence and have a baby.'

The only way I would face those 'consequences' is if I was raped. Being raped would be appalling enough why should I also have to face yet more consequences?

This comment ' not mature enough to have sex or face the music when it comes to getting pregnant and having a baby' reminded me of the tragic death of Anne Lovett http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anne_Lovett

We are geared to have sex, teenagers are walking hormones driving them to have sex. Their bodies are telling them - we are mature enough to have sex.
The way to deal with 'consequences' is education, more education and availability of contraception. Not judgement.

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

Its these flippant attitudes that make me realise these people are not mature enough to have sex or face the music when it comes to getting pregnant and having a baby..

Which people aren't mature enough, in your opinion?

christmas2012

For those thinking abortion is the way forward,here are some facts to first read before embarking on a terribly invasive procedure.

FACT 1: They use conscious sedation.

FACT 2: It IS a painful and invasive procedure theres no pain medication to take afterwards.

FACT 3: There is risk of infection some women who go on to change their mind and want a baby in the future,try to get pregnant and miscarry.

FACT 4: No procedure is 100 % safe you are putting yourself at risk.

FACT 5: The foetus/baby sometimes is torn apart due to the procedure,if intact is left on a table in a seperate room to suffocate or die slowly sometimes for hours on end.

The unpalatable truth right there..

Mark Hamill

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No. A new born is reliant. Any adult will do.

If we had the technology to transfer a foetus from one person to another, would they be equivalent then?

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

For those thinking abortion is the way forward,here are some facts to first read before embarking on a terribly invasive procedure.

FACT 1: They use conscious sedation.

FACT 2: It IS a painful and invasive procedure theres no pain medication to take afterwards.

FACT 3: There is risk of infection some women who go on to change their mind and want a baby in the future,try to get pregnant and miscarry.

FACT 4: No procedure is 100 % safe you are putting yourself at risk.

FACT 5: The foetus/baby sometimes is torn apart due to the procedure,if intact is left on a table in a seperate room to suffocate or die slowly sometimes for hours on end.

The unpalatable truth right there..

Scaremongering, as usual.

1. It doesn't mean its agonising

2. My friend had medication after the procedure

3. Every surgical procedure carries a risk - I caught an infection after a blood test

4. Same as above

5. Scaremongering again. It's all done humanely.

I love your version of the truth, a chara. Always a delight to read.

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

For those thinking abortion is the way forward,here are some facts to first read before embarking on a terribly invasive procedure.

FACT 1: They use conscious sedation.

FACT 2: It IS a painful and invasive procedure theres no pain medication to take afterwards.

FACT 3: There is risk of infection some women who go on to change their mind and want a baby in the future,try to get pregnant and miscarry.

FACT 4: No procedure is 100 % safe you are putting yourself at risk.

FACT 5: The foetus/baby sometimes is torn apart due to the procedure,if intact is left on a table in a seperate room to suffocate or die slowly sometimes for hours on end.

The unpalatable truth right there..

Sorry but I have to pull you up on that. What country are you talking about? Somewhere in the third world where abortions are done in a back room somewhere?

In the UK - where I have experience of, I am sure the rest of Europe is the same - you are given the option of being awake or sedated. Its the woman's choice. Its not painful, it was no more painful than having a smear, you are given pain relief after if you want it although no woman I was in the clinic with needed it.

Yes there is a risk but you get a vaccine, a tooth out or any other medical procedure there is a risk. Being pregnant and carrying a baby to term carries risks.

The risk of infection is small, that is one of the reasons women are required to go for a six week check up - its to make sure she is okay and that same check up happens after the birth of a baby. Many women go on to have babies after an abortion without any complications.

Bannasidhe

Mark Hamill wrote: »

If we had the technology to transfer a foetus from one person to another, would they be equivalent then?

If women has the choice to opt-in or opt-out without any repercussions to their health that would be wonderful but we don't, just as we don't have the technology you refer to so I don't really see the point of 'what if' tbh.

christmas2012

Sorry but I have to pull you up on that. What country are you talking about? Somewhere in the third world where abortions are done in a back room somewhere?

In the UK - where I have experience of, I am sure the rest of Europe is the same - you are given the option of being awake or sedated. Its the woman's choice. Its not painful, it was no more painful than having a smear, you are given pain relief after if you want it although no woman I was in the clinic with needed it.

Yes there is a risk but you get a vaccine, a tooth out or any other medical procedure there is a risk. Being pregnant and carrying a baby to term carries risks.

The risk of infection is small, that is one of the reasons women are required to go for a six week check up - its to make sure she is okay and that same check up happens after the birth of a baby. Many women go on to have babies after an abortion without any complications.

Thats bullsh!t of the first order,tell me after you have had your abortion those facts,you only get concious sedation as they are not legally allowed to put any woman under general anaesthetic for the procedure they are abortionists and not qualified to do so,and concious sedation is cheaper and more cost effective for the clinc,and NO i know first hand you dont get pain medication after wards, i know this for a fact and if you research any clinic in the UK ,you will know this also

Mark Hamill

christmas2012 wrote: »

FACT 1: They use conscious sedation.

So?

christmas2012 wrote: »

FACT 2: It IS a painful and invasive procedure theres no pain medication to take afterwards.

Citation needed? If they sedation then why would it be painful during the procedure. and while no pain killers may be prescribed afterwards, presumably you can take over the counter ones to deal with any after pain.
Lastly, so is childbirth.

christmas2012 wrote: »

FACT 3: There is risk of infection some women who go on to change their mind and want a baby in the future,try to get pregnant and miscarry.

The same with childbirth

christmas2012 wrote: »

FACT 4: No procedure is 100 % safe you are putting yourself at risk.

The same with childbirth

christmas2012 wrote: »

FACT 5: The foetus/baby sometimes is torn apart due to the procedure,if intact is left on a table in a seperate room to suffocate or die slowly sometimes for hours on end.

Citation needed?

iguana

christmas2012 wrote: »

For those thinking abortion is the way forward,here are some facts to first read before embarking on a terribly invasive procedure.

FACT 1: They use conscious sedation.

FACT 2: It IS a painful and invasive procedure theres no pain medication to take afterwards.

FACT 3: There is risk of infection some women who go on to change their mind and want a baby in the future,try to get pregnant and miscarry.

FACT 4: No procedure is 100 % safe you are putting yourself at risk.

FACT 5: The foetus/baby sometimes is torn apart due to the procedure,if intact is left on a table in a seperate room to suffocate or die slowly sometimes for hours on end.

The unpalatable truth right there..

Once more, your fevered imaginings are not now nor will they ever be facts. You haven't the first clue what you are on about. Why don't you go away and learn some facts, or even what the word 'fact' actually means, before you run your keyboard off about things that time and time again you are demonstrating you don't have the first clue about. It does your argument no good whatsoever to keep repeating the same nonsense and ignoring anyone who does present the facts.

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

Thats bullsh!t of the first order,tell me after you have had your abortion those facts,you only get concious sedation as they are not legally allowed to put any woman under general anaesthetic for the procedure they are abortionist and not qualified to do so,and concious sedation is cheaper and more cost effective for the clinc,and NO i know first hand you dont get pain medication after wards, i know this for a fact and if you research any clinic in the UK ,you will know this also

You wouldn't know a fact if it was surgically removed from you and propped up on the operating table.

You do get medication afterwards. Why do you persist with your lies?

christmas2012

Once more, your fevered imaginings are not now nor will they ever be facts. You haven't the first clue what you are on about. Why don't you go away and learn some facts, or even what the word 'fact' actually means, before you run your keyboard off about things that time and time again you are demonstrating you don't have the first clue about. It does your argument no good whatsoever to keep repeating the same nonsense and ignoring anyone who does present the facts.

First off there not fevered imaginings,it looks like its you whos running off on the keyboard..Look them up if you dont believe me..Just because it doesnt sit with your worldview doesnt mean you get to discredit the truth of the situation..

You do get medication afterwards. Why do you persist with your lies?

No you get NO pain mediaction aftewards,and legally they are only allowed to give you conscious sedation..Maybe you should ring them and ask!

eviltwin

christmas2012 wrote: »

Thats bullsh!t of the first order,tell me after you have had your abortion those facts,you only get concious sedation as they are not legally allowed to put any woman under general anaesthetic for the procedure they are abortionist and not qualified to do so,and concious sedation is cheaper and more cost effective for the clinc,and NO i know first hand you dont get pain medication after wards, i know this for a fact and if you research any clinic in the UK ,you will know this also

I had an abortion in a UK clinic. I was asked making the appointment if I wanted to be awake or sedated. It was my choice and made no difference to the cost.

On the day I was told I might have some discomfort after and pain relief was available to me but to be honest I have had more painful periods. I didn't need to take any of the meds they offered me.

I can't speak for any other woman who may have had a different experience but that was mine.

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

Look them up if you dont believe me..Just because it doesnt sit with your worldview doesnt mean you get to discredit the truth of the situation..

Astounding.

old hippy

christmas2012 wrote: »

First off there not fevered imaginings,it looks like its you whos running off on the keyboard..Look them up if you dont believe me..Just because it doesnt sit with your worldview doesnt mean you get to discredit the truth of the situation..



No you get NO pain mediaction aftewards,and legally they are only allowed to give you conscious sedation..Maybe you should ring them and ask!

The truth is you are scaremongering and perhaps should think before posting blatant lies - getting caught out and then labelling us as immature. Unless, of course, my friend was lying to me.

christmas2012

and eviltwin NO you dont get pain medication all you get is concious sedation i hate to burst your abortion bubble..

Bannasidhe

christmas2012 wrote: »

First off there not fevered imaginings,it looks like its you whos running off on the keyboard..Look them up if you dont believe me..Just because it doesnt sit with your worldview doesnt mean you get to discredit the truth of the situation..



No you get NO pain mediaction aftewards,and legally they are only allowed to give you conscious sedation..Maybe you should ring them and ask!

People who have had an abortion have told you what you are saying is not true. They do not need to look it up - they lived through it. Can you say the same?

May I ask if you looked this up and if so please provide a link to the source you are using?