Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Nodin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

You may wish to check the origin of the comment you are, apparently, making the cornerstone of your case. Because you've missed the context.Can I confirm, for the record, I have no expertise that would assist me in determining the molecular composition of the Moon..

Then stop talking in circles and explain yourself. Try not to use three words where none would do.

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Not really. The High Court ruling was pretty clear - once a law is found unconstitutional, it has no effect. The Supreme Court, in overruling the High Court, came up with the strange and novel idea that you could be bound by a law that doesn't exist. That concept would normally only be found in the strange, arbitrary edicts of some Latin American dictatorship.
..

This may not have been included in Amateur Internet Lawyering Vol 1, but the Supreme court outranks the high court. Also not included would seem to be advice to read up on the judgement in question, which refers to precedents in the US and Canada.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I should let this pass, as I think far too much attention is being given to a red herring, but it has to be pointed out that there's a gap between saying a woman is suicidal due to being pregnant, and saying the solution in every such case is for the pregnancy to be terminated. It's just the wrong place to be in this discussion.

I don't think it is a red herring - I think, in fact I know, that many women are suicidal due to unwanted pregnancies and one cannot simply dismiss that.
Women - and girls - are so desperate to terminate pregnancies that they can and do take their own lives or risk death by buying drugs off the internet. I believe the latest one is an arthritis medication ...

Cases of amniotic fluid embolism, which resulted in maternal and fetal death, have been reported with use of misoprostol during pregnancy. Severe vaginal bleeding, retained placenta, shock, fetal bradycardia, and pelvic pain have also been reported.

http://www.drugs.com/pregnancy/diclofenac-misoprostol.html

To my way of thinking if a woman - or girl - is prepared to die in an attempt to terminate a pregnancy she is suicidal.

Now, this is not the only part of this whole abortion argument - but I would be wary of dismissing it out of hand as you seem to be doing.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Nodin wrote: »

Then stop talking in circles and explain yourself. Try not to use three words where none would do.

Oh, I can make it very simply. You've made an ass of yourself by not comprehending that I've haven't claimed any expertise - the line you are quoting was a passing joke. You are now pursuing your misunderstanding with vigour.

Nodin wrote: »

This may not have been included in Amateur Internet Lawyering Vol 1, but the Supreme court outranks the high court. Also not included would seem to be advice to read up on the judgement in question, which refers to precedents in the US and Canada.

Oh, I've read both judgments. And, indeed, the Supreme Court does outrank the High Court. But what's notable from reading them is that the High Court judgment is grounded in law, where the Supreme Court executes the equivalent of a handbrake turn.

I've a vague memory of someone commenting at the time that they didn't feel the Supreme Court's decision would be relied on as a precident in too many future cases, which is at least a candidate for understatement of the decade.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I don't think it is a red herring - I think, in fact I know, that many women are suicidal due to unwanted pregnancies and one cannot simply dismiss that.
Women - and girls - are so desperate to terminate pregnancies that they can and do take their own lives or risk death by buying drugs off the internet. I believe the latest one is an arthritis medication ...

http://www.drugs.com/pregnancy/diclofenac-misoprostol.html

To my way of thinking if a woman - or girl - is prepared to die in an attempt to terminate a pregnancy she is suicidal.

Now, this is not the only part of this whole abortion argument - but I would be wary of dismissing it out of hand as you seem to be doing.

I am, indeed, willing to dismiss it out of hand as a core concern in this agenda. You might as well say that all debts should be declared invalid, for fear that someone in financial trouble might find the pressure too much to handle. It's just a nonsensical point, when presented as a core concern.

Dades

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Oh, I can make it very simply. You've made an ass of yourself by not comprehending that I've haven't claimed any expertise...

That type of post is not going to keep this thread on an even keel. No more of that.

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I am, indeed, willing to dismiss it out of hand as a core concern in this agenda. You might as well say that all debts should be declared invalid, for fear that someone in financial trouble might find the pressure too much to handle. It's just a nonsensical point, when presented as a core concern.

Given the recent furor over the suicide of young girls due to cyber bullying I think you will find many disagree with you.
We worry about the suicide rate of young men.
We worry about the suicide rate of young LGBT people.
But we should discount suicidal feelings in pregnant women or girls?

I never said it was a core concern, I said it was a genuine concern - one which you are prepared to dismiss as 'nonsensical' which, to be honest, leads me to suspect you are male and unable to comprehend just how some women and girls can be so desperate that suicide seems like their best option.

Obliq

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

I am, indeed, willing to dismiss it out of hand as a core concern in this agenda. You might as well say that all debts should be declared invalid, for fear that someone in financial trouble might find the pressure too much to handle. It's just a nonsensical point, when presented as a core concern.

The difficulty I have with your position here is that you are outlawing compassion as a core concern. The whole basis for the 8th amendment was out of compassion for the life of the unborn (over and above that of compassion for the mother) and by giving them equal rights, overrides any chance of compassion for the life/health/personal choice of the mother.

Many, many of us have moved on from the appalling injustice of the 8th that gives as much right to life to an embryo as to a grown woman, and can see that women in desperate situations should not have to be compelled to give birth if they don't want to.

If you can't factor in compassion to this debate then what sort of monsters are we?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I never said it was a core concern, I said it was a genuine concern - one which you are prepared to dismiss as 'nonsensical' which, to be honest, leads me to suspect you are male and unable to comprehend just how some women and girls can be so desperate that suicide seems like their best option.

The issue is caught in your words "seems like their best option".
The problem is the leap from seems to is, which is not a gender issue.

Obliq wrote: »

The difficulty I have with your position here is that you are outlawing compassion as a core concern.

No. Woolly arguments that don't make sense aren't compassionate, they are delusional.
Compassion is what has us discussing the issue at all.

Lingua Franca

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

.I should let this pass, as I think far too much attention is being given to a red herring, but it has to be pointed out that there's a gap between saying a woman is suicidal due to being pregnant, and saying the solution in every such case is for the pregnancy to be terminated. It's just the wrong place to be in this discussion.

Who the hell said that?

Nodin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Oh, I've read both judgments. And, indeed, the Supreme Court does outrank the High Court. But what's notable from reading them is that the High Court judgment is grounded in law, where the Supreme Court executes the equivalent of a handbrake turn.[/FONT]

I've a vague memory of someone commenting at the time that they didn't feel the Supreme Court's decision would be relied on as a precident in too many future cases, which is at least a candidate for understatement of the decade.

And again, this is amateur internet lawyering of the lowest order. The Supreme court determines what the law is, and did so in this case with clear references. You not understanding or liking it makes no difference whatsoever to the fact of the matter.

old hippy

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Who the hell said that?

Some bleeding heart pink wristed pc brigade liberal do gooder, no doubt

goodie2shoes

this country does not want or need abortion on demand.

old hippy

goodie2shoes wrote: »

this country does not want or need abortion on demand.

Joking aside, I do wish someone would explain just what that means.

PopePalpatine

goodie2shoes wrote: »

this country does not want or need abortion on demand.

[citation needed]

Bannasidhe

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

The issue is caught in your words "seems like their best option".
The problem is the leap from seems to is, which is not a gender issue.No. Woolly arguments that don't make sense aren't compassionate, they are delusional.
Compassion is what has us discussing the issue at all.

Given that only females can find themselves in a situation where death is preferable to being pregnant there is an element of a gender issue.

Given that there are few options available to females in Ireland who are unwillingly pregnant and do not have the financial resources to travel for a termination or have been told that to do so would make them a murderer it is not surprising that suicide is one of those few options available to them. Since men cannot experience this particular facet of Irish life - yes, it is a gender issue unless you can demonstrate some equivalent experience that affects men?

goodie2shoes

just wondering if you guys think there ought to be a free vote on upcoming legislation?
or should they get a lash of the whip?

Obliq

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

No. Woolly arguments that don't make sense aren't compassionate, they are delusional.
Compassion is what has us discussing the issue at all.

See, here's the thing - No government should be in the position of having to legislate for "Woolly arguments", but they are. That's a direct result of the "compassion" of the 8th amendment and the subsequent x-case ruling, whether you like it or not.

You can look at any amount of situations where women decide they will have an abortion and call our reasoning "woolly" if we support her. After all, who should be deciding whether a woman's situation is desperate enough, only her?

Distress, disgust, horror, psychological trauma from abuse, poverty, fear AND suicidality - all these things are relative to the person who is experiencing them and are the GREY AREAS that should never have to be legislated for. Are you distressed enough at being pregnant? That's not your call, we'll decide. Are you abused enough to not have to carry someone's child? That's not your decision to take, we'll decide. Are you in fact suicidal? That's not your place to say, we'll decide.

It's such a pile of bollix. Essentially, we women need (and take to the UK, until such time as Ireland stops betraying us as people) the right to take our own decisions. We are not monsters, we are your mothers. And screw anyone who tries telling me otherwise.

goodie2shoes

old hippy wrote: »

Joking aside, I do wish someone would explain just what that means.

i would say its akin to the abortion situation in England, which most people in this country do not want.

i think even a majority of English are appalled by it tbh.

Obliq

goodie2shoes wrote: »

......which most people in this country do not want.

Citation please.

old hippy

goodie2shoes wrote: »

i would say its akin to the abortion situation in England, which most people in this country do not want.

i think even a majority of English are appalled by it tbh.

Is it like beer on tap? Can you order it on Amazon?

I think the majority of people here in the UK are quite happy with the abortion status quo. Apart from being horrified at the amount of Irish women being forced to come over here because their own country has betrayed them.

Nodin

'Dominos?'

'Hi, I'd like your special, chicken strips, an abortion, garlic bread....'

doctoremma

goodie2shoes wrote: »

i think even a majority of English are appalled by it tbh.

Just to follow the trend...

Citation needed.

Stark

goodie2shoes wrote: »

this country does not want or need abortion on demand.

Thank god for "Add user to ignore list" on demand.

old hippy

Nodin wrote: »

'Dominos?'

'Hi, I'd like your special, chicken strips, an abortion, garlic bread....'

I just laughed my cola through my nose

Obliq

Nodin wrote: »

'Dominos?'

'Hi, I'd like your special, chicken strips, an abortion, garlic bread....'

Reminds me of that Sarah Silverman line: " The other day I really wanted an abortion, but then I thought about it and it turned out I was just thirsty."

Stark

"And keep the abortion casual". None of that having to dress up for your abortion lark.

Bannasidhe

doctoremma wrote: »

Just to follow the trend...

Citation needed.

My experience of living in England for 10 years and being part of the Irish abortion underground railway during the days when any information on abortion in Ireland was censored was that the majority of English people we appalled at the fact that Irish women were a)being denied access to information and b)forced to travel secretly lest the State arrest them.

Bannasidhe

old hippy wrote: »

I just laughed my cola through my nose

Cola is bag for you. We should ban it in the Constitution.


:pac:

Bannasidhe

old hippy wrote: »

Can you order it on Amazon?

Can I pre-order one just in case?

Lingua Franca

Put it on your wishlist!