Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Galvasean

goodie2shoes wrote: »

i never said that.

Indeed. Now you know what it feels like to have the goalposts moved on you.

goodie2shoes

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

The point is surely less about whether the decision to abort on grounds of gender would be frequent; it's whether, in principle, it could occur.

If we establish a right to abort at the independent discretion of the pregnant woman, then the answer is surely an unambiguous "yes, it would be possible for a woman to decide to abort because she did not want to give birth on grounds of the expected gender of the child."

It is feasible to detect gender at an early stage, with reasonable accuracy. e.g.Fetal gender can be a factor in predicting disability. It therefore most certainly would be a feature in any reasonably liberal abortion regime.

Seriously, what's the problem in just saying the goddamn thing?

it's already happening in England.
No questions asked.

goodie2shoes

Galvasean wrote: »

Indeed. Now you know what it feels like to have the goalposts moved on you.

i'm well used to that in these forums i can assure you. LOL:D

lazygal

goodie2shoes wrote: »

it's already happening in England.
No questions asked.

And there are a lot of Irish women who owe their lives and sanity to the fact that there are no questions asked of them when they request a medical procedure in the UK.

goodie2shoes

lazygal wrote: »

And there are a lot of Irish women who owe their lives and sanity to the fact that there are no questions asked of them when they request a medical procedure in the UK.

where's your evidence for that?

lazygal

goodie2shoes wrote: »

where's your evidence for that?

The 12 women who travel for terminations every day and the 150,000 who've travelled since the X case. I'm sure there are more who don't give Irish addresses or have terminations in other jurisdictions.

goodie2shoes

lazygal wrote: »

The 12 women who travel for terminations every day and the 150,000 who've travelled since the X case. I'm sure there are more who don't give Irish addresses or have terminations in other jurisdictions.

and all of those women have had their lives saved?
and all have had their sanity preserved?

Hmmm?:o

Nodin

goodie2shoes wrote: »

and do you really think that such a cut off period would be strictly enforced?
considering our recent history of & the pride we seem to take in subverting the law in this country?

be honest now.

As Doctors are currently unwilling to break the law and perform abortions, what makes you think they'd be willing to break the law on time limits?

lazygal

goodie2shoes wrote: »

and all of those women have had their lives saved?
and all have had their sanity preserved?

Hmmm?:o

Look its pretty simple. If you don't want an abortion don't have one. Boob jobs and gastric band surgery are legal but not everyone is rushing out to get one, even though they are available on demand. Why on earth do you even care about what other women do with their bodies? And how many unwanted children do you care for if you're indeed in favour of forced births?

I'm out after this response, you're not worth the hassle.

goodie2shoes

Nodin wrote: »

As Doctors are currently unwilling to break the law and perform abortions, what makes you think they'd be willing to break the law on time limits?

because it's already happening in england, as are gender selection abortions (which are supposed to be illegal) and probably because it's easier to cover up once abortion is legal.

it's call human nature.

lazygal

goodie2shoes wrote: »

it's call human nature.

[citation needed]

goodie2shoes

lazygal wrote: »

Look its pretty simple. If you don't want an abortion don't have one. Boob jobs and gastric band surgery are legal but not everyone is rushing out to get one, even though they are available on demand. Why on earth do you even care about what other women do with their bodies? And how many unwanted children do you care for if you're indeed in favour of forced births?

I'm out after this response, you're not worth the hassle.

so you would equate the abortion of a child/foetus with a boob job?!!!
and people wonder why the pro-life lobby don't want it!!!!

no further questions, Your Honour.

goodie2shoes

lazygal wrote: »

[citation needed]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9099925/Abortion-investigation-Available-on-demand-an-abortion-if-its-a-boy-you-wanted.html

have a read of this. i couldn't find anything on boob jobs.:(

ShooterSF

goodie2shoes wrote: »

and do you really think that such a cut off period would be strictly enforced?
considering our recent history of & the pride we seem to take in subverting the law in this country?

be honest now.

How about this, assuming we are able to enforce whatever suggestion you come up with, what would your preference be on abortion law in Ireland?

goodie2shoes

ShooterSF wrote: »

How about this, assuming we are able to enforce whatever suggestion you come up with, what would your preference be on abortion law in Ireland?

yes i personally have no problem with abortion in certain limited circumstances.
but the evidence emerging from both the England and America leads me to believe it will need to be very strictly controlled.
i mean we already got people on here equating terminations with cosmetic surgery!

i hate to use the term "slippery slope" or "thin end of the wedge" but there's no other honest way to put it.

ShooterSF

goodie2shoes wrote: »

yes i personally have no problem with abortion in certain limited circumstances.
but the evidence emerging from both the England and America leads me to believe it will need to be very strictly controlled.
i mean we already got people on here equating terminations with cosmetic surgery!

i hate to use the term "slippery slope" or "thin end of the wedge" but there's no other honest way to put it.

What circumstances?

lazygal

goodie2shoes wrote: »

i mean we already got people on here equating terminations with cosmetic surgery!

I used that example to point out that just because something is available, to use the vile phrase the anti abortion crowd love, 'on demand', doesn't mean every woman will avail of that medical procedure. I have a baby. Would I have an abortion if I needed one, for whatever reason? Abso-fricking-lutely I would. Would you have a termination if your life was in danger?

Nodin

goodie2shoes wrote: »

because it's already happening in england, as are gender selection abortions (which are supposed to be illegal) and probably because it's easier to cover up once abortion is legal.

it's call human nature.

...we're talking about Ireland. Again -
As Doctors are currently unwilling to break the law and perform abortions, what makes you think they'd be willing to break the law on time limits?

AK333

Just found this thread and have read some of the pages but can I just add my two cents worth

My body - my choice

You can tell me what I can do with my body, when we have a law that dictates to men what they can do with their bodies - thats equality.

Well done to Alan Shatter on at least speaking out.

How many of these do-gooders who say 'no because we're catholics' actually go to mass. Not many if my local church is anything to go by and yes, I do go to mass but if I had to, would use common sense over religious bias everytime.

swampgas

goodie2shoes wrote: »

yes i personally have no problem with abortion in certain limited circumstances.
but the evidence emerging from both the England and America leads me to believe it will need to be very strictly controlled.

If you really believe that Irish women should only be allowed abortions in certain limited circumstances, what is your opinion on Irish women travelling outside Ireland to get abortions? Because I think you want to have your (moral) cake and eat it too.

Based on the referendums we have had in the past, most Irish people seem to be okay with women travelling to have abortions, yet object to these very same women being able to have that abortion carried out here in Ireland.

To me it's a peculiar form of Irish moral nimbyism: sure, go ahead and have an abortion, but do it out of sight in England so we can keep on pretending it isn't really happening. And we'll feel free to slag off England for having such a liberal abortion regime while at the same time quietly taking advantage of it. It's the kind of hypocrisy and willful blindness that we excel at as a nation.

Maybe when Irish people can admit that they have this weird contradictory position, i.e. that a woman has a right to information about abortion, and can travel to have an abortion, but the abortion itself must happen outside the country, maybe then we can make some progress.

Obliq

AK333 wrote: »

Just found this thread and have read some of the pages but can I just add my two cents worth

My body - my choice

You can tell me what I can do with my body, when we have a law that dictates to men what they can do with their bodies - thats equality.

Well done to Alan Shatter on at least speaking out.

How many of these do-gooders who say 'no because we're catholics' actually go to mass. Not many if my local church is anything to go by and yes, I do go to mass but if I had to, would use common sense over religious bias everytime.

I like this person Two cents well spent mate.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Lingua Franca wrote: »

China it is, then.

Lingua Franca

Erm... do you have any constructive to say or is a meme all ya got?

GCU Flexible Demeanour

swampgas wrote: »

... Maybe when Irish people can admit that they have this weird contradictory position, i.e. that a woman has a right to information about abortion, and can travel to have an abortion, but the abortion itself must happen outside the country, maybe then we can make some progress.

You're right, and that's a very fair summary of the situation.

But the slowness to acknowledge what a positive right to abortion allows is also an exercise in denial. A positive right to abortion means women will be requesting and receiving terminations for reasons far more ephemeral than fetal gender or expected disability. But you'll notice a lot of dodging around that kind of statement.

Nodin

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

You're right, and that's a very fair summary of the situation.

But the slowness to acknowledge what a positive right to abortion allows is also an exercise in denial. A positive right to abortion means women will be requesting and receiving terminations for reasons far more ephemeral than fetal gender or expected disability. But you'll notice a lot of dodging around that kind of statement.

Not really. If somebody is willing to have an abortion because it interrupts their home decor night course, they're hardly ideal maternal material in the 1st place.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

Nodin wrote: »

Not really. If somebody is willing to have an abortion because it interrupts their home decor night course, they're hardly ideal maternal material in the 1st place.

I'm not saying it's necessarilly undesirable. Simply that folk are slow to acknowledge that a positive right to abortion, which allows a woman to request a termination simply because she doesn't want to proceed with a pregnancy, absolutely means that women will (just to take the case that folk were dodging on this thread) be able to request a termination if they've discovered a strong chance that the fetal gender is not what they wanted.

That's all. I'm not commenting at all on whether a woman who requests a termination is otherwise fit to be a parent.

swampgas

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

But the slowness to acknowledge what a positive right to abortion allows is also an exercise in denial. A positive right to abortion means women will be requesting and receiving terminations for reasons far more ephemeral than fetal gender or expected disability.

True. And accepting that is a very big step for a lot of people who simply don't want to accept that Ireland is a country where women want elective abortions just as often as in most other Western countries.

My mother - a Catholic - is feeling the cognitive dissonance quite strongly on this. Although she feels that she must accept a certain moral position from the church when it comes to abortion in abstract terms, when she considers any individual case, involving actual real-life women, she tends to be very pro-choice.

For her to accept that women should be allowed to have abortions in Ireland, and that this is morally okay, would mean accepting that the churches position is wrong, that her position up until now has been wrong, and that Ireland, rather than being special for resisting abortion, has actually been failing to provide proper medical care to its women for decades. That's a big big adjustment, maybe too big for her to make. So the fudge of opposing abortion in Ireland but allowing (even guaranteeing) access to abortion abroad seems to be the easiest way out.

goodie2shoes

ShooterSF wrote: »

What circumstances?

where the life of the mother is in real danger.

swampgas

goodie2shoes wrote: »

where the life of the mother is in real danger.

If the mother's life is not in danger, do you think she should be prevented from travelling to England to have an abortion?

goodie2shoes

Nodin wrote: »

Not really. If somebody is willing to have an abortion because it interrupts their home decor night course, they're hardly ideal maternal material in the 1st place.

your just being silly now.
that's not what he/she meant and you know it.

now if a woman said i want to abort this kid 'cos it'll damage my career prospects, then that's seriously immoral.