Abortion/ *Note* Thread Closing Shortly! ! !

Bannasidhe

mewe wrote: »

I think a lot of people are bandwagon jumping on this issue. There is a strong anti religious and anti government feeling in this country which is totally understandable but i believe this issue has been lumped into those categories and there is people who have got caught up in that whereas for me its a seperate issue.

There is a mocking of people who are pro life going on here too. As if all pro life people are staunchly catholic,ignorant etc etc.
I was brought up in a very liberal family,am anti government myself and wouldn't be very religious at all but have respect for all religions.

Your point about the unborn what? Yes you're right the correct scientific terminology is foetus.
On your point about Ireland having a long history of treating women as second class citizens you are also right but two wrongs don't make a right.
The foetus is a life too and therefore shouldn't be treated as a second class citizen either in my opinion.

I have been riding this wagon since before that disaster of an 8th Amendment. It has nothing to do with anti-religious or anti-government and everything to do with my firm conviction that women should have control over their own bodies.

Do you also wish to argue that people's anger over child abuse is because they are anti-religious and anti-government?

mewe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I have been riding this wagon since before that disaster of an 8th Amendment. It has nothing to do with anti-religious or anti-government and everything to do with my firm conviction that women should have control over their own bodies.

Do you also wish to argue that people's anger over child abuse is because they are anti-religious and anti-government?

Thats fair enough man and i respect your opinion.

And no i don't wish to argue that peoples anger over child abuse is because they are anti-religious or anti-government and think its disgraceful really that you would use this subject to try and make a point.

Bannasidhe

mewe wrote: »

Thats fair enough man and i respect your opinion.

And no i don't wish to argue that peoples anger over child abuse is because they are anti-religious or anti-government and think its disgraceful really that you would use this subject to try and make a point.

No it's not.

Successive Irish government's have forced women to endure pregnancies against their will - including in cases where the fetus is non-viable and cannot survive, or where the woman -or girl- has been raped.

To force a woman -or girl- to carry a fetus to term for 9 months knowing it will die or to force a woman or girl to carry a fetus implanted during a rape for 9 months is abuse.

It just doesn't suit the so called pro-life agenda to admit that.


BTW - I am not your, or anyone else's, 'man'. I am an Irish women who has to live with the knowledge that my life is legally on the same footing as that of a fetus should I become pregnant as the result of a rape. I am an Irish citizen whose government denies me control over my own body just because of my gender.

Corkfeen

koth wrote: »

some folk having a good ol' pray at the protest.

More on the Journal

The picture of those children holding the signs, really pissed me off. I'm opposed to exploiting children for political gain. For some reason, I doubt they have an actual opinion on the matter but their parents apparently thinking using them is fine. It would really piss me off if I discovered that my parents tried to use me to emotionally manipulate the public.

mewe

Bannasidhe wrote: »

No it's not.

Successive Irish government's have forced women to endure pregnancies against their will - including in cases where the fetus is non-viable and cannot survive, where the woman -or girl- has been raped.

To force a woman -or girl- to carry a fetus to term for 9 months knowing it will die or to force a woman or girl to carry a fetus implanted during a rape for 9 months is abuse.

It just doesn't suit the so called pro-life agenda to admit that.

Thats your opinion. My opinion is that the foetus is a life too and therefore should also have rights. So you don't think its disgaceful that you would use the subject of child abuse to try and make a point then?

Bannasidhe

mewe wrote: »

Thats your opinion. My opinion is that the foetus is a life too and therefore should also have rights. So you don't think its disgaceful that you would use the subject of child abuse to try and make a point then?

You don't think forcing a rape victim to carry a fetus for 9 months is abuse?
You don't think forcing a 14 year old girl to have to appeal to the courts to be granted permission to travel outside the jurisdiction to terminate a pregnancy that was the result of rape was child abuse?

You don't think that the fact that woman is now in her mid 30s but still has to relive what she went through 20 years ago as successive government failed to legislate is abusive?

Pro-Lifers seem to me to be big on the 'rights' of those who haven't been born but are blasé in the extreme about the rights of living, breathing females.

lazygal

mewe wrote: »

Thats your opinion. My opinion is that the foetus is a life too and therefore should also have rights. So you don't think its disgaceful that you would use the subject of child abuse to try and make a point then?

Can I have one of your kidneys if I need it to preserve my right to life?

robindch

Bannasidhe wrote: »

I blame Jack Lynch - he wasn't a Corkman like - he was a Fianna Failer through and through

Sure, didn't they name the biggest hole in Cork city after him?

Obliq

mewe wrote: »

.......is a life and therefore should have rights,the same as the rest of us in my opinion.

Is a life, the same as the rest of us what? Animals? Or humans? What's so special about humans exactly?

Bannasidhe

robindch wrote: »

Sure, didn't they name the biggest hole in Cork city after him?

Would that be the giant hole they have to close on a regular basis for maintenance? Pretty sure most, if not all, of that is technically in the county *pedant*

Bannasidhe

mewe wrote: »

Thats your opinion. My opinion is that the foetus is a life too and therefore should also have rights. So you don't think its disgaceful that you would use the subject of child abuse to try and make a point then?

It's your opinion but it could be my body.

Obliq

Stark wrote: »

Can't wait for the YD Facebook page post: "We might not be much good at judging the size of crowds but we reckon about 17 million showed up to pro-life protest".

On that note, the fella called me earlier and said he heard there were seven thousand at it. I asked had he been watching RTE? Yes, says he. I informed him they had actually said several thousand. Amazing how everything grows arms and legs in Ireland. And a greater right to life than a woman's before it's born even......

Obliq

Hello mewl. We haven't spoken before, but I imagine we'll not have a lot in common. Still, here goes.

mewe wrote: »

I think a lot of people are bandwagon jumping on this issue. There is a strong anti religious and anti government feeling in this country which is totally understandable but i believe this issue has been lumped into those categories and there is people who have got caught up in that whereas for me its a seperate issue.

This issue cannot be separated from the Catholic church. a) They have, and continue to exert control over every aspect of women's sexuality from the start of Christianity (first bite of the apple) to the number of children (or souls for the church) that a woman should have. b) It was Catholic pro-life lobbyists who formulated the plan to make sure Ireland remained abortion-free (this is a joke - we have well over 4,000 abortions a year) and contrived to have it enshrined in the constitution in an undemocratic manner in 1983. These are facts. Hence the strong anti-religious sentiment among the people of Ireland regarding this issue.

I was brought up in a very liberal family,am anti government myself and wouldn't be very religious at all but have respect for all religions.

You may have respect (or deference) for all religions, but you have none for me (a born human), and the potential horror that I might be forced to endure with an unwanted pregnancy.

On your point about Ireland having a long history of treating women as second class citizens you are also right but two wrongs don't make a right.
The foetus is a life too and therefore shouldn't be treated as a second class citizen either in my opinion.

Where you say "two wrongs don't make a right", are you somehow imagining that by disallowing women the right to have abortions here, you are saving babies? There are at least 4,000 abortions taken by Irish women every year. I don't consider that wrong, you do - whatever - neither of us will make the slightest impression on the actual abortion rate, whether it is here or in the UK. Women have, and will make their own choices. Where we differ in effect, is in the respect we have for those women. I respect their choices. You pretend that really bad stuff doesn't happen to women, stick your fingers in your ears, and the voices in your head sing "Lala lala laaa".

The Mad Hatter

oldrnwisr wrote: »

Wonderful, yet another propaganda site (or so it seems). Perhaps you misread Bannasidhe's post. She asked (as did I) for actual evidence, you know, not some unrepresentative scaremongering.

WomenHurt was the Catholic front group that had the obnoxious, misleading posters up all over Dublin before they were taken down and replaced by YouthDefence's obnoxious, misleading posters.

You might remember it claimed to be “a project initiated by women who regret their abortions and wish to share their stories of hope and healing with women who find themselves in similar situations”.

Nodin

mewe wrote: »

Thats fair enough man and i respect your opinion.

And no i don't wish to argue that peoples anger over child abuse is because they are anti-religious or anti-government and think its disgraceful really that you would use this subject to try and make a point.

....if you'd get back to me...?
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=82077670&postcount=2897

jank

The Black Oil wrote: »

Funny how often they claim to speak for the people of Ireland...we've heard that several times over the past few years.
...

The same for any interest groups really. I am sure the pro-choice lobby speak for the women of Ireland....

Hotblack Desiato

robp wrote: »

Your completely missing how abortion has been introduced in a legal context.

In the UK up to 24 weeks abortion on demand is in practise available. That was never the intention of legisation back in 1967 when reform happened.
Here are the grounds legally.

Yes I already know all this. I simply don't care. It's irrelevant to the Irish situation apart from the fact that Irish women benefit from it.

It is said that 'politics is the art of the possible' and it's pretty unlikely that an explicit statement of allowing abortion on demand would have been passed at the time.

It would be more honest if they now amended the law to explicitly state that abortion on demand is permitted. But what's the point really.

The UK people have an abortion law that, generally, they are happy with. There is no major political party looking to roll it back. The only controversial aspect for most people (that is, most people who ever think about the subject at all) is where the foetal age limit should be.

MPs can easily amend the UK law if they choose, if a majority of them are unhappy with it. This is not the case and there is no evidence that they are out of step with their electorate in this regard.

Our situation here is totally different because of our constitution and the damned Article 40.3.3. Even if the X case is legislated for, it will still be extremely restrictive. Even a serious risk to the health, as opposed to the life, of the mother will not permit an abortion.

GCU Flexible Demeanour

ninja900 wrote: »

Our situation here is totally different because of our constitution and the damned Article 40.3.3. Even if the X case is legislated for, it will still be extremely restrictive. Even a serious risk to the health, as opposed to the life, of the mother will not permit an abortion.

The present Constitutional position might even be summarised as too liberal for the Pro Life side and too restrictive for the Pro Choice side.

Politically, that's bad news because what legislation will permit will please no-one. Again, the Pro Life side will be dismayed when the legislation provides for abortions taking place within the State, including some procedure through which abortions can be performed where there is a threat to life based on mental health concerns. The Pro Choice side will be dismayed because of arbitrary exclusions from access to abortion; for the sake of argument, a woman pregnant as a result of rape who doesn't display any mental health risk to her life.

Presumably, this explains the lack of legislation to date. Politically, its just a pure loss.

Morag

Atomicjuicer wrote: »

I'm not in the wrong forum. Can't please ye - do you want proof and references from the people who have actually gone through the nightmare you push or not?

It wasn't a nightmare, the procedure and recovery, but traveling to a different country and traveling back was hellish.

Atomicjuicer wrote: »

And it's ye who will be challenged mark my words.

Ireland is prolife.

Here's another link for you:

http://www.womenhurt.ie/

That campgain was ran by http://www.rachelsvineyard.ie/aboutus.php which was set up by http://www.priestsforlife.org/index.aspx

Zombrex

mewe wrote: »

Well the unborn child,or should i say foetus because the use of scientific terminology seems very important to some people in this thread,is a life and therefore should have rights,the same as the rest of us in my opinion.

Given that I (a 33 year old male) do not have the right to invade my mother's body against her wishes (a 62 year old female), even if my health is in question, the same rights as the rest of us would surely permit abortion for any reason (ie all the mother has to do is not consent to the foetus being inside her body any more, for what ever reason).

Which is why it is always frustrating when people say the foetus has the right to life, or should be recognized as a person with rights. Neither of those things grants the foetus the right to be inside the mother without the mother's consent, thus neither support the banning of abortion in of themselves.

So what rights, specifically, should the foetus have.

Hotblack Desiato

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

Politically, that's bad news because what legislation will permit will please no-one. Again, the Pro Life side will be dismayed when the legislation provides for abortions taking place within the State

Tough. If they don't agree with abortions they shouldn't have one.

Presumably, this explains the lack of legislation to date. Politically, its just a pure loss.

TDs are never happy except when they're doing the 'one for everyone in the audience' thing. Handing out goodies to the people paid for with the people's own money.

Every decision that isn't an absolute no-brainer, that might not please everyone, gets analysed, re-analysed, fudged, delayed, and compromised to death. For examples just look at Luas, the incinerator, national childrens' hospital...

Peregrinus

GCU Flexible Demeanour wrote: »

The present Constitutional position might even be summarised as too liberal for the Pro Life side and too restrictive for the Pro Choice side.

Politically, that's bad news because what legislation will permit will please no-one. Again, the Pro Life side will be dismayed when the legislation provides for abortions taking place within the State, including some procedure through which abortions can be performed where there is a threat to life based on mental health concerns. The Pro Choice side will be dismayed because of arbitrary exclusions from access to abortion; for the sake of argument, a woman pregnant as a result of rape who doesn't display any mental health risk to her life.

Presumably, this explains the lack of legislation to date. Politically, its just a pure loss.

This. The reason we have had no legislation since the X case is that any politician, of any stripe, who introduces any legislation at all on this subject will be engulfed in a toxic sh*tstorm from which he will certainly lose much more than he gains - regardless of what the legislation actually says. Why would we expect any politician, hopeful of re-election, to do this?

It's easy (and entirely justified) to blame the politicians for being spineless, but the fact is that they don't create the discourse about abortion in this country. Unless those who want to see some change in Irish abortion law are willing to work to build a more civilised discourse, they're not going to see any change in Irish abortion law.

ShooterSF

mewe wrote: »

Well the unborn child,or should i say foetus because the use of scientific terminology seems very important to some people in this thread,is a life and therefore should have rights,the same as the rest of us in my opinion.
I did also state in my earlier post that abortion should be permitted if the mothers life is at risk.
I'm basically against simply making abortion legal and just having the choice there.
I think abortion should be a last resort and only legal when the mothers life is at risk.
Thats my opinion anyways.

Out of interest are you a vegetarian? I'm interested in where you place the rights of a foetus in comparison to a living animal?

TwoShedsJackson

Pfft, everyone knows animals don't have souls.

loveisdivine

YD are claiming ten thousand at that vigil last night. Anyone know if thats actually accurate?

Peregrinus

The Indo says "more than 2,000". According to the Irish Times, "a Garda source put the figure at closer to 5,000" (than the 10,000 claimed by the organisers). RTE sits on the fence with "several thousand". Take your pick!

Dades

The Black Oil wrote: »

Niamh U&#237 wrote: »

“We are proud to be a pro-life nation, we are here to tell the politicians in Dáil Eireann that they may have destroyed our economy but we will never let them kill our children.”

Was she waving a longsword with a blue and white painted face while spouting this?

old hippy

Atomicjuicer wrote: »

I'm not in the wrong forum. Can't please ye - do you want proof and references from the people who have actually gone through the nightmare you push or not?

And it's ye who will be challenged mark my words.

Ireland is prolife.

Here's another link for you:

http://www.womenhurt.ie/

Not in my name.

Bannasidhe

Dades wrote: »

Was she waving a longsword with a blue and white painted face while spouting this?

Personally I was hoping a house landed on her and some toerag stole her ruby slippers.

PopePalpatine

Atomicjuicer wrote: »

I'm not in the wrong forum. Can't please ye - do you want proof and references from the people who have actually gone through the nightmare you push or not?

And it's ye who will be challenged mark my words.

Ireland is prolife.

Here's another link for you:

http://www.womenhurt.ie/

Where was this concern for "hurt women" from religious conservatives when we started hearing about the Magdalene Launderies?