A Young Man's Mind

SK101

Something has been bothering me for a while now. As a young person just coming out of college I would like to know a few thing about our situation.

1. Why are the Irish people not protesting and rioting like other European countries in debt?
2. Is there something we as a people should be doing to help the country get out of the crisis?
3. Is the government doing all they can to help the people and the country?
4. What would happen is we refuse to pay back any of the bailout?
5. Can we pay back the bailout, will we ever be debt free?
6. Why are we paying for NAMA, I don't think a person working and living in one part of the country should be paying for an apartment/house in another part of the country they will never see
7. Why not make NAMA a public company and allow shares to be bought in it to relieve stress on tax payers?
8. Have the Irish government been in talks with other debt countries so that together they can work on a solution which could be implemented in all states?

I do not want to leave Ireland, but faced with paying for the sins of another I do not see any other option. If I refuse to pay my taxes I am put in jail, if a wealthy person does it they are slapped on the wrist and have their debt removed?

andrew

SK101 wrote: »

[*]Why are the Irish people not protesting and rioting like other European countries in debt?

Protesting what? Protests about how people are generally discontent don't usually achieve anything.

[*]Is there something we as a people should be doing to help the country get out of the crisis?

Pray that the world economy picks up perhaps. Aside from that, I don't really think we've as much control over what's happening as we'd like to believe we do.

[*]Is the government doing all they can to help the people and the country?

I think it'd be impossible to get a straight answer for that. You'll always find someone saying that the government could do more.

[*]What would happen is we refuse to pay back any of the bailout?

The same thing which happens when people in real life don't pay back a loan; they find it very hard to get a loan ever again.

[*]Can we pay back the bailout, will we ever be debt free?

This depends on the growth rate of the Irish economy, and the extent to which the level of debt is reduced (if at all) by those who lent us the money (the EU).

[*]Why are we paying for NAMA, I don't think a person working and living in one part of the country should be paying for an apartment/house in another part of the country they will never see

Because the state now owns the banks, and the banks own the NAMA property.

[*]Why not make NAMA a public company and allow shares to be bought in it to relieve stress on tax payers?

I don't think it's possible for NAMA to turn a profit, as far as I'm aware, it's job is to keep losses on the property in it's portfolio to a minimum.

[*]Have the Irish government been in talks with other debt countries so that together they can work on a solution which could be implemented in all states?
[/LIST]

No, unless you count EU summits.

Sea Sharp

SK101 wrote: »

Why are the Irish people not protesting and rioting like other European countries in debt?

Our standard of living was incredibly high during the boom and there's still quite a bit of a drop to go before people resort to violence. Being forced to look for bargains when shopping isn't the same as not being able to feed your family.

SK101 wrote: »

Is there something we as a people should be doing to help the country get out of the crisis?

What we need is lots of innovative IT/Engineering companies to sprout up over the next few years so I suppose we as a people should consider becoming a nation of entrepreneurs.

SK101 wrote: »

Is the government doing all they can to help the people and the country?

God no. That's not how governments work. Their goal is to be seen to be doing more that the other political parties.

SK101 wrote: »

What would happen is we refuse to pay back any of the bailout?

We stop getting bailout money, about 6 weeks of chaos and rioting occurs. Then everyone in the public sector takes a 50% pay cut and the public sector goes from being a safe job for life to a situation where people aren't sure if their pay check is going to go through next month.

SK101 wrote: »

Can we pay back the bailout, will we ever be debt free?

Yes, but we won't be finished the repayments for at least another 40 years.
What is likely to happen is that much of this debt will be written down over the next 10 years along with the debt of other EU countries in the same boat as us.

femur61

Our standard of living was so high durig the boom we have a long way to fall to be at the same level of alot of our european conterparts. I was in The Algarve during the summer and they are suffering so bad it is sad.

Watch the news who are protesting? The nurses, teachers, and the unionised organisations - we have the CPA.

There are no large unions in the private sector to organise a protest so we lie down let the taxes keep pilling up to pay wages and pensions of higher public/civil servants.

Sand

SK101 wrote: »

Why are the Irish people not protesting and rioting like other European countries in debt?

- People are protesting and rioting. Just not very many. Protesting on a mass movement scale requires a mass movement. The PAYE classes in Ireland are unrepresented and unorganized, so they are discontent but unable to voice that discontent coherently. Trade unions serve as the vehicle of mass movement protests in other countries, but in Ireland trade unions are very definitely *inside* the tent....

Is there something we as a people should be doing to help the country get out of the crisis?

- Get a job and pay taxes
- Keep voting out the government until they finally listen.

Is the government doing all they can to help the people and the country?

Yes and no. Obviously no overall, but part of the problem is they are trying really hard to help *some* people.

What would happen is we refuse to pay back any of the bailout?

Various threats and ultimatums would be activated. It would be bad for everyone all round but the upshot would be that Ireland would not be able to borrow at bailout rates so we would have to budget for that on a very quick turnaround.

The Irish *state* not paying back the bailout would be *incredibly* bad. The "burn the bondholders" strategy was the Irish state putting clear blue sky between itself and the debts of Irish banks as quickly as possible. The "green jersey" strategy was to as often and loudly as possible claim that private bank debts and Irish sovereign debt was one and the same

*Nobody* ever advocated the Irish sovereign refusing to payback on Irish sovereign debt.

Can we pay back the bailout, will we ever be debt free?

Of course we *can* pay it back. We can always send the army around to loot hospitals, schools and private homes of anything that can be sold on ebay to raise the funds even if we can raise the money through taxes. The question is are we willing to accept any social, economic or political cost to pay it back? There is a cost-benefit analysis to run, both for us and for our creditors. If they push it too hard, they get nothing. If we push it too hard, we get nothing.

We will never be debt free as modern society doesn't allow for that. We would never choose to be debt free. We can hope to reach a point whereby our debt does not constrain us.

Why are we paying for NAMA, I don't think a person working and living in one part of the country should be paying for an apartment/house in another part of the country they will never see

Good question. Essentially, it was a really bad idea, badly executed by morons for reasons that very hard to explain because they make no sense. We're paying for NAMA because our government are idiots.

Why not make NAMA a public company and allow shares to be bought in it to relieve stress on tax payers?

Unfortunately, we've yet to find a bigger set of idiots than our government willing to pay to buy into a really bad idea.

Have the Irish government been in talks with other debt countries so that together they can work on a solution which could be implemented in all states?

No - that would require a shift in perceptions. No indebted country wants to be associated with other indebted countries. Ireland is not Greece, remember? They prefer to associate with creditor states for the sake of appearances - and for that dubious benefit they are willing to accept being dictated to.

Farmer Pudsey

SK101 wrote: »

Something has been bothering me for a while now. As a young person just coming out of college I would like to know a few thing about our situation.

1. Why are the Irish people not protesting and rioting like other European countries in debt?
2. Is there something we as a people should be doing to help the country get out of the crisis?
3. Is the government doing all they can to help the people and the country?
4. What would happen is we refuse to pay back any of the bailout?
5. Can we pay back the bailout, will we ever be debt free?
6. Why are we paying for NAMA, I don't think a person working and living in one part of the country should be paying for an apartment/house in another part of the country they will never see
7. Why not make NAMA a public company and allow shares to be bought in it to relieve stress on tax payers?
8. Have the Irish government been in talks with other debt countries so that together they can work on a solution which could be implemented in all states?

I do not want to leave Ireland, but faced with paying for the sins of another I do not see any other option. If I refuse to pay my taxes I am put in jail, if a wealthy person does it they are slapped on the wrist and have their debt removed?

1 Why do you think the Brits managed to walk all over us for 800 years
2 Yes we are great to talk but hate confrontation
3 No it is selling us out just like other Irish people have done for hundreds of years
4 The EU would wring there hands get excited and then do a deal like with Greece
5 No we are after 4 years of no growth and face another 4-6 years of the same
6 Because otherwise some of the goldencircle might have there Maybach's/helicopters taken off them
7 Then sombody would take it over and there would be no jobs for the boys such as previously failed bankers and auctioneers.
8 No too busy trying to be nice to the people who are shafting/have shafted the country.

jimmycrackcorm

SK101 wrote: »

Something has been bothering me for a while now. As a young person just coming out of college I would like to know a few thing about our situation.

1. Why are the Irish people not protesting and rioting like other European countries in debt?

Because people who were on social welfare during the boom are actually better off with the recession. Unlike Greece our pensioners are benefitting from the increases in the boom. Many people who have lost their jobs in recent times and are saddled with huge mortgages who would rant perhaps about the banks secretly would admit that they made the mistake in "getting on the property ladder". I meanwhile the young migrating still regard it as the adventure in Oz as those who did the same in the boom times.

The rest of us have to keep on working and paying taxes. Those old enough to remember paying 48% tax and more on low incomes don't see anything new about more tax in the guise of water or property taxes.

So, who is left to protest?

amacca

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

1 Why do you think the Brits managed to walk all over us for 800 years

they walked all over a lot of other more populous "colonies" for quite a long time didn't they?

Its always been my opinion we gave them quite a hard time of it given our resources

stevedublin

Sand wrote: »

*Nobody* ever advocated the Irish sovereign refusing to payback on Irish sovereign debt.

except:

• Sinn Fein
• Various left-wing independents
• me
• many others (most?) in this country (who may not be in the public eye/politically active)

Idbatterim

Pray that the world economy picks up perhaps. Aside from that, I don't really think we've as much control over what's happening as we'd like to believe we do.

We certainly don't have total control, but there is a lot that the government could do to improve the situation... There is no point in worrying about what is outside our control, we need to focus on what is inside our control!

NakedNNettles

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

1 Why do you think the Brits managed to walk all over us for 800 years
.

Stopped reading your post right about there.

What century are you living in? Bloody pub talk nonsense!

Tea drinker

NakedNNettles wrote: »

Stopped reading your post right about there.

What century are you living in? Bloody pub talk nonsense!

No, I agree with him, I think we are quite a beat down nation, doffing our cap to our betters, afraid to say anything in case it upsets them, and if we do say anything are totally unprepared to back it up. We'll fight among ourselves as you say in and out of pubs, just not about anything important. People who don't like it leave. People who like it or just can put up with it stay. the system of allowing malcontents to leave has worked very well, it keeps them from forming opposition, and from the malcontents POV what does he gain by trying to motivate a bunch of feckin eejits who just covered their eyes and ears for every political scandal? I think FF recognised the usefullness of this policy in the 50's. I hope my young nephew leaves, meanwhile many here will say he will no longer be Irish and is some how less then them.
As an Irish man at some point I must admit it's totally pointless trying to motivate Irish people.

You only have one life to leave, get the fvck out now work as hard as you for your first few years abroad, have the crack later. Do what YOU want to do with YOUR life. I've spent a few short years from UK-Dubai-Morocco and loved it. Moneywise I don't have an arse in my pants since I came back.
Why would you stay and dedicate your life to paying for ould codgers out to canny macsavvy their way to riches? People who were chuggin on FF for years, using third world clan based voting allegiance? Oh daddy will be angry if we don't vote FF. How do you expect to get decent politicians?

Scortho

SK101 wrote: »

Something has been bothering me for a while now. As a young person just coming out of college I would like to know a few thing about our situation.

Why are the Irish people not protesting and rioting like other European countries in debt?

Reasonably high levels of welfare will stop people protesting such as basic welfare rate as well as other payments which those that qualify get (household benefits payment, childrens allowance, free travel, back to education, back to schools allowance, exceptional needs payment, rent allowance, medical card, free travel, lone parents allowance, family income supplement and so on).

Paye workers such as your private sector workers and lower grade public service workers are sensible. They realise that if they go out on a days strike they don't get paid/get paid less for those days.

The self employed are struggling so much to keep the show on the road that to risks a days work and therefore wages to go out on a protest is lunacy to them.

College students.
The grant system means that most students that are from disadvantaged communities or the less well off have an opportunity to go to college get a degree and a passport for life. When they look around and think about it, they're getting the oppertunity to do something no one in there families has ever gotten.

For those from middle class families, the fact that education is subsidized to a greater extent means that they have a great opportunity as well. For example in the US my degree would cost over $120000 () for the 4 years (pharmacy). But you first have to do a basic degree so that adds to the costs. In Ireland my degree is 5 years. Mine will cost me approx €12000. In the UK it would cost me over £30000. Yeah I'm really going to go out and complain on that one now ain't I?

Is there something we as a people should be doing to help the country get out of the crisis?

Dont pay trades people in cash. Dont buy illegal cigarettes. Pay your household charge.

Don't pay employees in cash. If you can employ another person, employ them.

Employers don't take the piss out of Jobbridge. Its there so a person can get the experience they need to develop the smart economy. Stacking shelves or flipping burgers, once the 16 year olds student summer job, is NOT THE SMART ECONOMY.

Those who can invest in Ireland should invest in Ireland!

Is the government doing all they can to help the people and the country?

Like it or not the government needs to balance the books. The sooner they balance them the lower our interest rate will be. One only has to compare our recent bond auctions to some of those of Spain. To many in the bond market we are the safer bet. This helps to lower our interest rate. Then we can borrow money to stimulate the economy. The IMF aren't going to do this. There the lender of last resort. They're there so the lights are kept on and the nurses and doctors are paid.

The government can't give every Tom Dick and Harry a job. Our public service is too big as it is.
What they can do is reduce red tape around job creation. Improve incentives to start-ups (reduced vat, less income tax for the entrepreneur who reaches certain profit and employment levels, reduce commercial rates for new companies).

They can also improve education for the unemployed.
Improved Fas courses for example. 10 years ago ECDL was important. Now my 9 year old cousin could nearly write a book on MS word. Move from ECDL to proper computer programming courses maybe. Oracle certification etc.

What would happen is we refuse to pay back any of the bailout?

One word - Argentina.
To those who still advocate an Iceland style recovery the time for this was in 2008. Not now. We've made our bed, now we have to lay in it.

Can we pay back the bailout, will we ever be debt free?

We rarely pay back debt. We never have been debt free. We service the interest on it. By the economy growing, which it will, our debt will shrink. Some of this may have to parked with the ECB on long term loans, maybe payable over 50-100 years. The UK used 100 year bonds to pay for the first world war for example.

Why are we paying for NAMA, I don't think a person working and living in one part of the country should be paying for an apartment/house in another part of the country they will never see

One of the reasons i believe that we are paying Nama is possibly due to the government believing that the banks would do deals with the developers. Instead of giving the banks control over the bad loan book which the government owned, they basically confiscated the loans at a discount.
NAMA are going after some of the biggest developers out there such as Richard Barrett and Johnny Ronan, the Grehan brothers Paddy Mckillen and Joe O Reilly. I really couldn't have pictured the banks doing this.

Why not make NAMA a public company and allow shares to be bought in it to relieve stress on tax payers?

Its simple. Would you buy shares in Nama?

Have the Irish government been in talks with other debt countries so that together they can work on a solution which could be implemented in all states?

Why would we. We look ok at the moment to outside investors. We're the best of the bad bunch. By keeping our mouths shut and getting on with fixing our mess, it appeals to investors. Greece certainly doesn't.

I do not want to leave Ireland, but faced with paying for the sins of another I do not see any other option. If I refuse to pay my taxes I am put in jail, if a wealthy person does it they are slapped on the wrist and have their debt removed?

You mightn't like Ireland. However we do have a higher standard of living than most countries. Yeah its not as good as in 2006. Our domestic economy might be struggling but our export side is doing really well. If things pick up in the next year or two, this side of our economy will flourish. WIth it, itll begin to bring our domestic economy with it.

Ireland might be bad, But very few go hungry. Very few die because they couldn't get basic medicines. Now look at Africa.

People say its bad here. Its not. My parents were born 50 years ago. My dad didn't have running water. They lived on a 4 acre homestead on the side of a mountain. They didn't even have a jacks. He saw his father 2 weeks of the year as he worked in England so his 7 kids, wife and parents wouldn't go hungry. This was the story for a lot of people living in Ireland.

Now compare that to children today. Most see theres everyday. Parents have hope for their children. They'll get a good education. Our future is bright. The next five years will be tough. But they will get better. They always do.

Once we learn from our mistakes and don't go crazy we'll be fine.

The question is will we???

Tea drinker

Scortho wrote: »

.
The next five years will be tough. But they will get better. They always do.

Once we learn from our mistakes and don't go crazy we'll be fine.

The question is will we???

Good post, but regarding the above points, we are now 4 years into this and it always seems to be fixed "in 5 years time". I realy hope it is, and I appreciate the cyclical nature of economies - but maybe this time it IS different? Oil is skyrocketing again and may further dampen an already slowing recovery. Youth unemployment is dreadful, in spite of many already leaving. College is a very expensive prospect, expecially for those who have to rent.
There's no reason to believe Irish people have rejected cronyism and corruption, FF still hanging on, FG-Labour not really that different either.

SK101

Just want to say thanks to everyone has posted so far, getting viewpoints from across people looking at from all different angles at least gives me a very informed idea of whats happening and can allow me to make up my mind on the matter.

I must say I agree with some points and not with others, I would like to see long prison sentences handed down to the hierarchy who drove us head first into this crash but I guess you can always dream.

People say its bad here. Its not. My parents were born 50 years ago. My dad didn't have running water. They lived on a 4 acre homestead on the side of a mountain. They didn't even have a jacks. He saw his father 2 weeks of the year as he worked in England so his 7 kids, wife and parents wouldn't go hungry. This was the story for a lot of people living in Ireland.

While this point above may have been the case 50 years ago I don't think it is fair to compare it to how we live today. All things are relative so comparing the hardships of Ireland 50 years ago to the hardships today I don't think is fair.

Scortho

SK101 wrote: »

While this point above may have been the case 50 years ago I don't think it is fair to compare it to how we live today. All things are relative so comparing the hardships of Ireland 50 years ago to the hardships today I don't think is fair.

I just used it as an example of how things are now compared to years ago and theyre not that bad.

While 2006 was great OP, did you have any problem with 2003 or 2004?

Scortho

Tea drinker wrote: »

Good post, but regarding the above points, we are now 4 years into this and it always seems to be fixed "in 5 years time". I realy hope it is, and I appreciate the cyclical nature of economies - but maybe this time it IS different? Oil is skyrocketing again and may further dampen an already slowing recovery. Youth unemployment is dreadful, in spite of many already leaving. College is a very expensive prospect, expecially for those who have to rent.
There's no reason to believe Irish people have rejected cronyism and corruption, FF still hanging on, FG-Labour not really that different either.

Unfortunately none of us know when the recovery is going to be. But most of us won't realise that we are actually in recovery mode until we're 2 or 3 years in. like we grew last year but very few felt it.

Some of the benefits of the recession will be of a great advantage to us when the worldwide economy gets moving. Which it will. Many Irish companies have used the recession to get out there and develop new markets. This will work to there advantage. Costs of employment have significantly fallen as well. This appeals to investors.

On the matter of oil, it will fall. It always does. Its the same as any commodity. Gold will crash as well. It did before and it will again.
Lots of people in 2008 thought that Oil was going to crash through 200 dollars a barrel. It didn't. In fact it slumped to 43 dollars in January 2009.

College may be expensive for those who rent and unfortunately nothing can be done about this. However having a degree will benefit them in the longer term.

On long term youth unemployment, I am at a loss as to what should be done. A lot went straight into the building trades out of school. In fairness to some of them, its hard to stop a 16 year old going on site and earning a couple of hundred quid a week as a labourer instead of finishing school and going to college.

Jobbridge I believe had good intentions. Unfortunately some employers have given it an awful bad reputation by using as a method of free labour for non-skilled jobs.

Out of curiosity tea drinker what do you think should be done to sort out the problem of the large scale youth unemployment. Many of them were involved in the building industry so it would be interesting to know yours and other peoples opinions.

eric hoone

SK101 wrote: »

Something has been bothering me for a while now. As a young person just coming out of college I would like to know a few thing about our situation.

1. Why are the Irish people not protesting and rioting like other European countries in debt?
2. Is there something we as a people should be doing to help the country get out of the crisis?
3. Is the government doing all they can to help the people and the country?
4. What would happen is we refuse to pay back any of the bailout?
5. Can we pay back the bailout, will we ever be debt free?
6. Why are we paying for NAMA, I don't think a person working and living in one part of the country should be paying for an apartment/house in another part of the country they will never see
7. Why not make NAMA a public company and allow shares to be bought in it to relieve stress on tax payers?
8. Have the Irish government been in talks with other debt countries so that together they can work on a solution which could be implemented in all states?

I do not want to leave Ireland, but faced with paying for the sins of another I do not see any other option. If I refuse to pay my taxes I am put in jail, if a wealthy person does it they are slapped on the wrist and have their debt removed?

The generation who got us into this mess should pay the price. Your generation should not, but which generation dominate corridors of power?
The youth and the negative equity generation need to agitate