Workers to have property tax taken from wages - confirmed

srsly78

Lots of rural villages have street lighting, water+sewage, footpaths, grass cutting etc. Rural does not just mean isolated people living on the side of a mountain.

Sleepy

Lantus wrote: »

Our villages and town and citys are products of a society that existed hundreds of years ago. Their layout and structure is no longer fit for purpose to meet the needs of the people today, let alone tomorrow. Most of our political structures are well over 100 years old and have yet to solve any of societys problems or even come close to looking as if they will. We simply vote to make ourselves a little bit better off if we are being honest, or out of fear.

The problems of service provision could be solved if we created purpose built city's that were planed and designed to be sustainable, energy and food abundant. Many issues and problems we have could simply be 'designed out'.

The old and ancient communities we inhabit cannot be retrofitted to suit our needs. We need to accept that and start working towards abandoning them and into something better.

I'd love to see the proposal for paying for that!

Farmer Pudsey

If you addes the subsidy given to irish rail, Dublin Bus and bus Eireann the majority is spend on urban dwellers would this close the deficit between council services in rural and urban area's

bbsrs

Back to the household charge being taken out of wages.
What happens when a house is co owned and mortgage is in two names which wage is the charge deducted from ?

srsly78

Half and half would seem obvious?

paddy147

pixiebean22 wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/workers-to-have-property-tax-taken-from-wages-confirmed-3213307.html

Apparently people on low incomes may be exempt from the property tax so that adds another to the list of exemptions. I presume people on social welfare are also going to be exempt from the property tax, the same way they're exempt from the household charge.

Are people who are on social wellfare payments exempt from the 100 euro HHC though??

later12

^^^No, social welfare is not an automatic House Hold Charge/ Property Tax exemption.

Out of curiosity, is the property tax going to be deducted from social welfare payments like JA/JS or pensions as well?

I imagine it ought to be, but it would need to be done quite gradually.

bbsrs

srsly78 wrote: »

Half and half would seem obvious?

That is obviously fair but will the legislators make provision for this?

later12

bbsrs wrote: »

That is obviously fair but will the legislators make provision for this?

I don't see why not; married taxpayers can already elect for how Revenue handle their income tax credits in light of their domestic situation, I don't think this should be a serious stumbling block.

Galwayguy35

I've read the thread and no rural dweller said that they should be exempt from the charge, we are prepared to pay our way the same as urban dwellers but while it's fine and dandy for urban people to say on here that we get the same services as them the reality is we don't.

The bad winter of 2010 comes to mind when in many areas we were left to our own devices and forced to make do.
Around here a few of us gritted the roads ourselves as the council seemed to be non existant.

madalig12

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I've read the thread and no rural dweller said that they should be exempt from the charge, we are prepared to pay our way the same as urban dwellers but while it's fine and dandy for urban people to say on here that we get the same services as them the reality is we don't.

The bad winter of 2010 comes to mind when in many areas we were left to our own devices and forced to make do.
Around here a few of us gritted the roads ourselves as the council seemed to be non existant.

Id include some towns...letterkenny dual carriageway was left a mess that winter.

alastair

madalig12 wrote: »

Id include some towns...letterkenny dual carriageway was left a mess that winter.

I live in Dublin 1. My street was ungritted and impassable for a number of days. All councils were unable to cope tbh.

In relation to services provided - the vast majority of council services are common, and similarly provided across rural and urban areas. Water mains, sewage systems, and the degree that footpaths and street lighting are provided being the obvious exceptions.

paddy147

So what exactly will a person living in Ireland get for his or her "property tax" in 2013?

Unlike Leo Varadkar waffling away on RTE radio this morning....I dont give a flying sh1t about any other country and their tax.

I want to know what "specific services" the property tax fee will cover for a homeowner/householder in IRELAND??

Galwayguy35

alastair wrote: »

I live in Dublin 1. My street was ungritted and impassable for a number of days. All councils were unable to cope tbh.

In relation to services provided - the vast majority of council services are common, and similarly provided across rural and urban areas. Water mains, sewage systems, and the degree that footpaths and street lighting are provided being the obvious exceptions.

Bit of a difference in a street and miles of road that hadn't been gritted in fairness.

Outside of small towns rural dwellers pay for their own sewage systems.

daenerysstormborn3

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Bit of a difference in a street and miles of road that hadn't been gritted in fairness.

Outside of small towns rural dwellers pay for their own sewage systems.

And water systems.

alastair

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Bit of a difference in a street and miles of road that hadn't been gritted in fairness.

Outside of small towns rural dwellers pay for their own sewage systems.

The point is that it wasn't one street - only main route roads were certain to be passable. And yes - as I say - sewage systems are an obvious exception to universally provided local services. That leaves the majority of local authority services available to all - rural or urban.

alastair

pixiebean22 wrote: »

And water systems.

Group water schemes receive grant aid through local authorities.

shedweller

Will there be a loophole for the wealthy to avoid paying it, or writing it off against tax? Will you have to pay it if, for example, you live on Ailesbury road? Or are out of the country more than you are in it?

Ya know what i mean??

alastair

shedweller wrote: »

Will there be a loophole for the wealthy to avoid paying it, or writing it off against tax? Will you have to pay it if, for example, you live on Ailesbury road? Or are out of the country more than you are in it?

Ya know what i mean??

It's applicable to all household owners - regardless of whether they're income tax resident here or not.

username123

What about people who do not work and are not on social welfare either? Like most peoples retired parents, people who failed social welfare means test due to savings, people where the house is in one name but the other person is the one who works etc...

daenerysstormborn3

alastair wrote: »

Group water schemes receive grant aid through local authorities.

Non-group water schemes don't.

flynnlives

how are they going to link the owner of a dwelling to someones wages?

and surely a tax based on site value will just force people to move out of cities

im sorry lads but this tax isnt going to fly unless we see PS paycuts and reforms.

The city manager of Cork earns more then the prime minister of Spain FFS!

TonyM.

I would remind our Dublin friends you receive your water from Kildare and Wicklow free of charge, we are giving away one of our greatest natural resources if we charged for it it would bankroll a lot of services down here.

View

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I've read the thread and no rural dweller said that they should be exempt from the charge, we are prepared to pay our way the same as urban dwellers but while it's fine and dandy for urban people to say on here that we get the same services as them the reality is we don't.

Well, the evidence would appear to be that most rural dwellers - although perhaps not you - aren't prepared to pay their local authority to support the current level of services their local authority provides, so it is real hard to believe that they are willing to pay much greater amounts of money to pay for better services.

daenerysstormborn3

Where is this belief coming from that rural dwellers will be able to avail of "better services" when we can't even avail of most of the existing services? Are the councils suddenly going to start installing street lighting and footpaths where I live from the proceeds of the household charge and property tax (if the property tax is to ear marked for "local services")?

Am Chile

The unions will probaly get properly involved if the new property tax is deducted out of peoples wages- the waterford branch of the unite trade union passed a motion in favour of Industrial action in the event of property taxes being de[/COLOR]ducted at source,plus calling on all the Public Service unions not to cooperate with plans to collect-the following motion was passed.

That
Unite campaign against the government threat to impose household/water tax by
deducting payment/arrears etc. from employees PAYE and citizens on social
welfare.The campaign to include industrial action if employers deduct the charge
from members wages without permission. We also agree to lobby and call on all
the Public Service unions not to cooperate with plans to process the collection
of these charges through the PAYE system.This branch requests the Irish
Executive Council ( IEC ) to support this posotion and agree to call on the ICTU
and all Trades Councils to do likewise

.

It might be early days but I expect other branchs of the Unite trade union to follow suit, plus some other trade unions to follow suit-as they will come under pressure from their members to do so



http://www.facebook.com/UnitedLeftAlliance/posts/378995575486991[/LEFT]

paddy147

The goverment dont have a clue what they are doing.

15 weeks to go,and they have not even talked about a property tax between themselves yet at cabinet level.Every time a FG or Labour minister opens his mouth on TV or radio,they contradict what the last person said about the property tax....Phil Hogan says 1 thing,Noonan contradicts that and says a different thing,then Varadkar says something else.

They havent a bleeding clue what they are doing or talking about.

Revenue wont have a clue who to target and who not to target either...lack of a data base for houses/dwellings in Ireland


A Total fcuk up AGAIN.

Well done FG,Micheal Noonan and Phil Hogan and another brilliant fcuk up

paddy147

Trade Unions have a lot of pulling power still..with regards Labour and Eamon Gilmore.

ncdadam

TonyM. wrote: »

I would remind our Dublin friends you receive your water from Kildare and Wicklow free of charge, we are giving away one of our greatest natural resources if we charged for it it would bankroll a lot of services down here.

Free of charge?

ncdadam

Am Chile wrote: »

The unions will probaly get properly involved if the new property tax is deducted out of peoples wages- the waterford branch of the unite trade union passed a motion in favour of Industrial action in the event of property taxes being de[/COLOR]ducted at source,plus calling on all the Public Service unions not to cooperate with plans to collect-the following motion was passed.

.

It might be early days but I expect other branchs of the Unite trade union to follow suit, plus some other trade unions to follow suit-as they will come under pressure from their members to do so



http://www.facebook.com/UnitedLeftAlliance/posts/378995575486991[/LEFT]

Haven't heard feck all from Jack O'Connor and SIPTU about this, then again they've been very quiet lately.

When their quiet it means they're getting what they want from government.

I wonder how deducting from source will affect the CPA, after all it's another tax taken at source.

Farmer Pudsey

Wake up and smell the coffee this is just another paye tax. They are already talking about exemptions for low paid workers so we can take it as granted that social welfare recipents will be exempt as will OAP. This is another virtual means test along with CA it will impact on the low middle income workers the most.

Some self employed/sole traders will be able to avoid it every second year or third year by keeping below the income limit. But Paye workers will be hit, It will be another reason if you are on the dole not to come off it, as you will have another 10-20 euro's/ week deducted from you pay after tax.

I am really delighted for all the people who paid up early in the year as PAYE workers our only chance was to stand firm and not pay it but rather than chance a 12 euro extra some pi##ed in ther pants and paid up. Alot of people believed that this would apply to all property owners however now we see that whoever else will not get caught PAYE workers will be screwed over again.

The lack of bottle of Irish people never fails to amaze me we all want to look for someother patsey to lead us. It was the same with the fiscal treaty alot of people could not vote yes fast enough. Imagine this was the one thing that as a protest we had to do nothing to win and people lined up to pay.

I often wonder for all the government guff if it was a case you had to register to be caught or else the government have to notify you personelly about a tax demand.

Going back to paying for services if property tax raise 500 million a year then the same amount will be reduced fron LA subvention.

All this bull about Urban dwellers subsidising rural dwellers. The reality on local charges yes. However the NRA spends most of it money on developing roads between major urban centres. The money from the DART came from general taxation not from LA grant and benifits Dublin only. The big motor ways are only between cities and benifit these urban areas the most. Dublin Bus/Irish rail/Bus Eireann benifit large urban areas the most and all of these get a government subsvention. The money the DAA spend on Dublin airport benifits Dublin the most it not all about sewage, water and potholes.

Galwayguy35

View wrote: »

Well, the evidence would appear to be that most rural dwellers - although perhaps not you - aren't prepared to pay their local authority to support the current level of services their local authority provides, so it is real hard to believe that they are willing to pay much greater amounts of money to pay for better services.

Well maybe if you bothered to read my other post you would see I said we were all prepared to pay our way.

City dwellers are also reluctant to pay I might add.

Good loser

For this tax it is important the liability should be on the occupiers rather than the owners.

In a multi tenanted house (4 students say) it might be difficult to fix someone for the bill. If tenant doesn't pay the liability should pass to the owner; he will then have an interest in ensuring tenant pays. This might be done in the first instance by specifying it in the lease or by adding it to the rent; the landlord can then pass it on to Revenue.

Govt would want to be taking action soon. Where a house has an existing rateable value (many have) this might be a starting point for some assessments.

barneystinson

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

Some self employed/sole traders will be able to avoid it every second year or third year by keeping below the income limit.

How?

Farmer Pudsey

barneystinson wrote: »

How?

At end of year pay some bills early and not collect some outstanding revenue until after end of year you live in a sheltered world

thebman

Good loser wrote: »

For this tax it is important the liability should be on the occupiers rather than the owners.

Disagree entirely, the owner owns the house. It is his/her property so he/she can pay the property tax.

Tenants will pay through rent like they always do. It is by far the easiest way to administer it too but some don't like the idea because they are landlords.

alastair

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Where is this belief coming from that rural dwellers will be able to avail of "better services" when we can't even avail of most of the existing services? Are the councils suddenly going to start installing street lighting and footpaths where I live from the proceeds of the household charge and property tax (if the property tax is to ear marked for "local services")?

I'm pretty sure I've seen both street lighting and footpaths in Kilkenny. Or are you arguing that every road should be paved and lit? - because I know of no local authority that manages this feat!

alastair

pixiebean22 wrote: »

Non-group water schemes don't.

What about the Individual Supply Grant Scheme?

seamus

I'm still skeptical that it will be a deduction at source scheme, more than likely it will be linked to tax credits such that your tax credits will reduce by the amount of charge that's due.

Where the house is jointly owned, each co-owner's credits will reduce by their own personal liability.

Overall that's the easiest way for employers and the revenue to work it, since each person already has their own individual tax credit amount.

Farmer Pudsey

thebman wrote: »

Disagree entirely, the owner owns the house. It is his/her property so he/she can pay the property tax.

Tenants will pay through rent like they always do. It is by far the easiest way to administer it too but some don't like the idea because they are landlords.

There is for and against this in reality it is a property tax so it should be levied on the owner. However there is another issue it is also to pay for services so should a tennant not pay the tax.

In reality over time in the private sector accomdation tennants will pick up the bill. However in Local authority Housing this will not happen unless the government decide to increase there rents there are two very good chances of that slim and none. In reality this property tax is turning out to be another tax on employmet. It will be another reason if you are on welfare not to go back to work

The unions again are complicit in hitting workers in realit I think most unions are more intrested in there image as social carers that in protecting the rights of ordinary workers. There is definately abias by Unions towards the PS and welfare recipents. They do not case about private sector workers.

Sleepy

The amount of heads in the sand in this thread is frightening. We can't close the current deficit with cuts alone so we'll have to increase tax revenue. This can be done via increasing Income Tax (making it even harder for employers to create jobs and people to come off the live register); by increasing indirect taxation such as VAT, Duty etc. (driving Irish consumers over the border or onto the web as indigenous retailers become even more expensive and putting more jobs at risk) or by introducing a wealth tax, the most common form of which, is property tax.

One of the big advantages I see to a property tax is that it is levied on those who don't pay income tax in Ireland: the tax exiles, the artists who have huge wealth they never had to pay tax on, those who inherited so much wealth they don't bother to work etc.

I'd like to see such a tax allow for the equity people actually have in their properties (i.e. an exemption for those who's properties are in such negative equity that they are long term liabilities rather than assets) but before defining a system for waivers, I think it makes sense to determine the basis on which the tax is charged.

Ronan Lyons has a good article on it on his blog at the moment: here

The government provided idiots with a stick to beat them wtih when they said the household charge was to cover local services. It's not. It's just another tax that goes directly into the central coffers (in the same way that motor tax, duty on cigarettes and alcohol aren't directed solely to the upkeep of road and counteracting the health problems caused by those products).

The government are simply using the local authorities as collection agents for (who knows why, most of them have an awful track record when it comes to debt collection). This does have one benefit though: it provides a blunt mechanism for punishing those that aren't paying their share via reducing the services available to their area. It's pretty harsh if you've paid your household charge but happen to live in an area with a high percentage of tax-dodgers but it's broadly fair that the entire country doesn't suffer because the people of Offaly, for example, evade their taxes more than others.

Whether we should switch our system of taxation to one of ring-fenced taxes (where motorists pay the entire cost of road maintenance - idiotic given that non motorists also benefit from the roads existence, property tax pays for local services, income tax pays for the running of government departments, PRSI covers the welfare bill etc. etc. etc.) is a completely different debate. The facts are that the democratically elected government have decided to impose a household charge as a pre-cursor to a proper system of property tax. If you don't like this: tough. In a democracy you don't have the right to not pay your taxes because you don't agree with them: you get your chance to repeal those taxes by voting for someone else at the next election. Personally, I'd be in favour of removing any holder of public office who's evading this tax from office and stripping them of any remuneration or pension they've accrued during their time in that position.

You can argue the minutiae of this all you like but it doesn't change the reality: a legally elected government has imposed a legal charge/tax on it's citizens. If those citizens try to evade that charge, they're breaking the law and no whinging about the fairness of that law or how it's implemented excuses that.

daenerysstormborn3

alastair wrote: »

I'm pretty sure I've seen both street lighting and footpaths in Kilkenny. Or are you arguing that every road should be paved and lit? - because I know of no local authority that manages this feat!

If they are charging fees under the guise of the provision of street lighting and footpaths and every person is expected to pay them then yes, every road should be paved and lit, otherwise how can they reasonably charge these fees? That is my whole point.

Individual water grant schemes are available to houses 7 years or older that don't already have a well or have access to a group water scheme. What use is that to someone who sunk their well 40 years ago? They're hardly going to provide grants retrospectively now, are they?

ncdadam

pixiebean22 wrote: »

If they are charging fees under the guise of the provision of street lighting and footpaths and every person is expected to pay them then yes, every road should be paved and lit, otherwise how can they reasonably charge these fees? That is my whole point.

Individual water grant schemes are available to houses 7 years or older that don't already have a well or have access to a group water scheme. What use is that to someone who sunk their well 40 years ago? They're hardly going to provide grants retrospectively now, are they?

Most grants for private housing have been cut or suspended in my LA area anyway due to the cut in central government funding.
This happened well before the HHC was introduced.

paddy147

Will rental fees rise too now?

Surely a landlord is not going to take the hit of a 500 euro property tax on a house,and not pass it on to the tennants via higher montly rent fees??

So will private tennants pay the property tax too??

dvpower

paddy147 wrote: »

Will rental fees rise too now?

Surely a landlord is not going to take the hit of a 500 euro property tax on a house,and not pass it on to the tennants via higher montly rent fees??

So will private tennants pay the property tax too??

The rental market will dictate that.
The property tax is an extra input so it will put pressure on rents.

TonyM.

ncdadam wrote: »

Free of charge?

Free of charge yes we provide the raw material free if we struck oil down here would you expect us to give it away water is just as valuable.

woodoo

Property tax should be set small and charged to everyone, renters, home owners, pensioners, council tenants etc etc. This idea of an exemption for low paid will be abused by the same sort of people you see coming out of the doctors surgery flashing their medical card at the counter and then climbing into their Mercs/BMW's to drive home.

€100 for houses valued under 100K
€150 for houses valued between 100K and 200K
€200 for houses valued at 200K to 300K
€300 for houses valued between 300K to 500K
€400 for all houses valued between 500K and 1 million
€500 for all houses over 1 million

None of those figures are enough to bankrupt anyone, just suck it up.

Galwayguy35

woodoo wrote: »

Property tax should be set small and charged to everyone, renters, home owners, pensioners, council tenants etc etc. This idea of an exemption for low paid will be abused by the same sort of people you see coming out of the doctors surgery flashing their medical card at the counter and then climbing into their Mercs/BMW's to drive home.

€100 for houses valued under 100K
€150 for houses valued between 100K and 200K
€200 for houses valued at 200K to 300K
€300 for houses valued between 300K to 500K
€400 for all houses valued between 500K and 1 million
€500 for all houses over 1 million

None of those figures are enough to bankrupt anyone, just suck it up.

That sounds ok but let's be realistic, the payment figure will be a lot higher than what you have there.

Maggie 2

woodoo wrote: »

Property tax should be set small and charged to everyone, renters, home owners, pensioners, council tenants etc etc. This idea of an exemption for low paid will be abused by the same sort of people you see coming out of the doctors surgery flashing their medical card at the counter and then climbing into their Mercs/BMW's to drive home.

€100 for houses valued under 100K
€150 for houses valued between 100K and 200K
€200 for houses valued at 200K to 300K
€300 for houses valued between 300K to 500K
€400 for all houses valued between 500K and 1 million
€500 for all houses over 1 million

None of those figures are enough to bankrupt anyone, just suck it up.

That is a fantastic suggestion. I would go a bit further and add a charge of €25 per adult. Still small enough for everyone to afford.

ncdadam

woodoo wrote: »

Property tax should be set small and charged to everyone, renters, home owners, pensioners, council tenants etc etc. This idea of an exemption for low paid will be abused by the same sort of people you see coming out of the doctors surgery flashing their medical card at the counter and then climbing into their Mercs/BMW's to drive home.

€100 for houses valued under 100K
€150 for houses valued between 100K and 200K
€200 for houses valued at 200K to 300K
€300 for houses valued between 300K to 500K
€400 for all houses valued between 500K and 1 million
€500 for all houses over 1 million

None of those figures are enough to bankrupt anyone, just suck it up.

That sounds like a fair enough idea.

Watch it been shot down in flames though.