Advice Please

engrish?

I started training for this years Dublin Marathon 2 & 1/2 weeks ago. I have three marathons under my belt, the last one was in March 2011. Unfortunately, I got cancer in May 2011 and everything really stopped there. I managed to avoid Chemo but I got into a bit of a rutt which I am just coming out of. I put on 20 kilos to get to 118.5kg's. I've managed to bring that down to 110 but I am finding it hard to get passed that now. My target weight is 98 kilos - that's at about 12% body fat.

I am doing about 20 miles a week, two big runs of 9 miles and a small run on top of that. My problem at the moment is pace and sustaining pace. Its quite obvious that this comes from the extra weight but I am looking for a solution outside of diet and what I am doing. My pb is the Dublin Marathon in 2010 where I finished in 4hrs 6 mins. I would be happy this year with 4hrs 30 but at the moment I am running 11min miles which would take me over a 5 hour marathon when you consider the slower second half of the marathon. I'm not following any marathon planners, I am going on my old training ways and listening to my body. I can feel my fitness improving and I notice that my breathing no longer sounds like John Candy on a stairmaster. My current schedule is:

Monday - off
Tuesday - 9 miles
Wednesday - off
Thursday - 9 miles
Friday - off
Saturday - 3 miles fartlek

My question is, should I be continuing to focus on long distances or should I start to look at sprints etc to try and get my fast twitch fibers going? I tried to run at a 10 min mile pace last night and I just wasn't able to sustain it passed two miles, it gradually slipped down to 12 min / mile.

I know that I am not long back training and it will come with time but I am looking for a way to get a quicker return to pace.

My diet is good - low carbs, high protein - except for run days.

Thanks

RayCun

Slowing down in the second half of a marathon is not inevitable, it's a sign that you haven't prepared for the marathon properly by doing enough long runs at the right pace.

You don't need to add any sprints to your training plan, the fartlek run once a week is enough faster running for basic marathon training. But you do need to build up a longer run once a week. 9 miles is not really far enough to be running at this stage of your training. Pick one of your weekly runs and make it longer. Reduce the length of your other run to compensate. And throw in another short run to increase the total distance you run each week.

More long, slow runs will burn fat, but you also need to watch your diet. You can't eat what you like three days a week and expect to lose weight. You don't have to starve yourself, just replace the bad food with good food.

Krusty_Clown

Hi engrish, sounds like the key to getting an improvement in pace will be getting more miles in the legs. Now I'm not in your situation, so please bear that in mind with my next comment, as your personal situation may dictate your training schedule and abilities, but from my perspective, looking at your training regime, it seems flawed.

The typical marathon program follows a strategy of:
recovery run + medium length run + medium length run + medium length run + Long Run

Whereas your current schedule is:
medium-long run + medium-long run + short fartlek run

I think that if you want to train for a marathon, then you should adjust your strategy to reduce the length of the two runs you are currently doing, add additional runs during the week and include a long run at the weekend (adding additional miles to the long run as the weeks progress). A structure like a HalHigdon's novice program would present a better structure that your current schedule.

My other question is: should you really be training for a marathon at all? Has your doctor given you the all clear? Your marathon preparation is also starting quite late, with just 8 weeks to go. Most programs would at this stage have your long run up to around 17-18 miles. Jumping into 15-17 mile long runs may put your body under a significant amount of stress. Wouldn't you be better off targeting a different race (perhaps in spring of next year) and getting the proper preparation under your belt, rather than trying to fit a program into 10 weeks?

Also, in terms of your diet, a typical marathoners diet should have greater emphasis on carbs, rather than trying to reduce your carb intake (with protein as necessary).

menoscemo

RayCun wrote: »

Slowing down in the second half of a marathon is not inevitable, it's a sign that you haven't prepared for the marathon properly by doing enough long runs at the right pace.

+1 The second half of DCM is actually much faster than the first half. Less crowded (so you can run a shorter line) and significantly flatter.

engrish?

RayCun wrote: »

You don't need to add any sprints to your training plan, the fartlek run once a week is enough faster running for basic marathon training. But you do need to build up a longer run once a week. 9 miles is not really far enough to be running at this stage of your training. Pick one of your weekly runs and make it longer. Reduce the length of your other run to compensate. And throw in another short run to increase the total distance you run each week.

More long, slow runs will burn fat, but you also need to watch your diet. You can't eat what you like three days a week and expect to lose weight. You don't have to starve yourself, just replace the bad food with good food.

Thanks for that - I will push in a longer run on my weekends. The 9 mile runs are the journey home from work which is a great way of running - you have no choice but to run if you want to get home. By the weekend I feel up to a long run so I will push in a double digit run.

RayCun wrote: »

Slowing down in the second half of a marathon is not inevitable, it's a sign that you haven't prepared for the marathon properly by doing enough long runs at the right pace.

This would be important to me - my second half has always been a half hour slower or so. How do you recommend preparing for that?

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

The typical marathon program follows a strategy of:
recovery run + medium length run + medium length run + medium length run + Long Run

Whereas your current schedule is:
medium-long run + medium-long run + short fartlek run

I think that if you want to train for a marathon, then you should adjust your strategy to reduce the length of the two runs you are currently doing, add additional runs during the week and include a long run at the weekend (adding additional miles to the long run as the weeks progress). A structure like a HalHigdon's novice program would present a better structure that your current schedule.

Will check that out - the reason I havent followed a high mileage option is because of my height and weight. I dont have a good build for a long distance runner so I am trying to protect my knees etc by limiting the pounding they take.

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

My other question is: should you really be training for a marathon at all? Has your doctor given you the all clear? Your marathon preparation is also starting quite late, with just 8 weeks to go. Most programs would at this stage have your long run up to around 17-18 miles. Jumping into 15-17 mile long runs may put your body under a significant amount of stress. Wouldn't you be better off targeting a different race (perhaps in spring of next year) and getting the proper preparation under your belt, rather than trying to fit a program into 10 weeks?

Also, in terms of your diet, a typical marathoners diet should have greater emphasis on carbs, rather than trying to reduce your carb intake (with protein as necessary).

Thanks for the concern. This is my 4th marathon so I feel that my body handles the stress quite well. I have the all clear from my oncologist and he thinks it is a good idea. What has been holding me back was the mental aspect, not the physical.

Regarding diet - on my off days (like today) I will have a healthy amount of carbs, relying more on carbs from veg than pasta etc. On a run day I will have carbs throughout the day leading up to the run.

RayCun

engrish? wrote: »

This would be important to me - my second half has always been a half hour slower or so. How do you recommend preparing for that?

Well, this is what marathon training is supposed to do. Take you from being able to run a steady pace for 10 or 15 miles to being able to run a steady pace for 26.2.
In your previous marathons, how long have your longest training runs been, and how much have you run each week?

engrish?

RayCun wrote: »

Well, this is what marathon training is supposed to do. Take you from being able to run a steady pace for 10 or 15 miles to being able to run a steady pace for 26.2.
In your previous marathons, how long have your longest training runs been, and how much have you run each week?

16 miles was the longest run I did before a marathon. I suppose I was doing about 30 miles a week.

RayCun

engrish? wrote: »

16 miles was the longest run I did before a marathon. I suppose I was doing about 30 miles a week.

There you are - you hadn't built your endurance by running enough, and you started slowing down not long after you entered new territory. The novice training plan (on the mentored thread) has 18 and 20 mile runs, and weekly mileage of 35-40 miles for most of September

Krusty_Clown

engrish? wrote: »

Will check that out - the reason I havent followed a high mileage option is because of my height and weight. I dont have a good build for a long distance runner so I am trying to protect my knees etc by limiting the pounding they take.

This may seem a little obvious but.... If you want to run a marathon, and run it well, and hit a goal time, then you have to do the appropriate training. If you cannot do the appropriate training because of specific limitations, then, well... it's going to be a struggle.

Why not focus on 5k-10k races and improving your times across those distances? This will also support lower mileage requirements than a marathon distance plan and may provide the kind of knee strength and adaptation required to tackle a marathon at a later stage.

engrish?

Thank you both. I'm going to stick with marathons but I will try to increase my training to match. I appreciate the advice.

hardCopy

If you want to lose weight, look to do it through changing your diet first.

macinalli

engrish? wrote: »

Regarding diet - on my off days (like today) I will have a healthy amount of carbs, relying more on carbs from veg than pasta etc. On a run day I will have carbs throughout the day leading up to the run.

+1 for hardcopy's point above. There's no need to change your diet on the day that you run - carbs throughout the day are unnecessary unless you're doing a v long distance. A healthy diet should be more then enough to get you through 9 miles. If you're set on running the DCM, then weight is something that you should try and tackle. More regular easy runs during the week and a better diet will go a long way.

Krusty_Clown

engrish? wrote: »

Thank you both. I'm going to stick with marathons but I will try to increase my training to match. I appreciate the advice.

Sure thing and best of luck with it. Certainly focus on the the long run and try and bring the mileage up for one run every week as high as possible and you can rely on adrenaline and the race atmosphere to do the rest.