are doctors overrated?

hattoncracker

Dangerous Man wrote: »

hattoncracker wrote: »

I know.. was so afraid that I wouldn't go to any doctor for a year after the procedure..

Now I am on three different types of medication and have to go to a specialist. Wonder what would have happened if I went to my childhood doc.

Jesus - that's awful. It amazes me how some people who are dumber than hammers can become doctors. It reminds me of a doctor I had when I was a kid - he was just so awful. I went to him with nasal polyps and agonizing headaches. He said 'we'll treat the headaches first and then we'll deal with the polyps.' It never occurred to this clown that the polyps were causing the headaches. It's actually extremely common. I had them removed a bit later and bingo - no more headaches...

Incidentally, since your doc couldn't diagnose something as obvious and simple as pneumonia, what the bloody hell did he think it was?

He thought I was making it up.

Dangerous Man

hattoncracker wrote: »

He thought I was making it up.

Christ almighty... I know you know better by now but do not under any circumstances go back to that clown and if you know anybody who does go to him tell them to go somewhere else.

hattoncracker

I live across the country now so I don't have to.. but I keep tellin my sis and my mum to go elsewhere.. although my mum goes to her northern Irish docs more these days.

Mexihalo

Doctors are ****ing morons....cover up their ****witness with a lot of jargon and we still tip the cap to them... No doctor, yes doctor,,, ffs.., like we treated the pedophile parish priest of old..cop on ffs

seven_eleven

Honestly the lot of you are coming across as quite stupid and ignorant. Complaining because you're not being told what you want to hear.

Im sure you all know more than the doctor does, after all he only went through 8 years of medical school :rolleyes:

By the way doctors arent all the same. They specialize in a certain area. So a GP will know little or nothing about Emergency medicine which he only spent a brief time learning about during his studies. The doctor in A&E wont be the same as the doctor in ICU or Paediatrics etc. Correct me if Im wrong on that one.

Honestly, you lot sound so begrudged over them and how much they get payed. Do you know how long they work for in hospitals? Often over 24 hour shifts or double that.

Of course you get good doctors and you get bad doctors but thats not the point Im trying to make. Also, answer the questions he wants to know. If you withold even the smallest things then it could hinder your diagnosis. There's no point being embarrassed about it either, he doesnt care and nobody else does either.

Mexihalo

Mexihalo wrote: »

Doctors are ****ing morons....cover up their ****witness with a lot of jargon and we still tip the cap to them... No doctor, yes doctor,,, ffs.., like we treated the pedophile parish priest of old..cop on ffs

Would you like some tomato sauce to go with that chip on your shoulder?

MysticalRain

Unfortunately my experiences with doctors in this country have been overwhelmingly negative (I have probably dealt with at least a dozen doctors during the last 5 years for an injury I received). As with a lot of professions, it seems like the more you pay them, the worse the service you get. Far too many doctors are in it just for the money and ambition. I actually had to complain to the CEO of one private hospital over the treatment (or lack of it) I received. I hope the IMF eventually put the boot in and cut their wages by about half to bring them in line with other Western countries.

MysticalRain

MysticalRain wrote: »

I hope the IMF eventually put the boot in and cut their wages by about half to bring them in line with other Western countries.

You seem to have a very strong opinion on how much I should get paid. So obviously you must know how much it is that I am actually paid.

Go ahead, enlighten everyone.

sweeney1971

I was lucky to find a good Doctor but try finding a good Vet. The ones I have come across are up their own A***s, one never even turned up to treat an animal and another I got thought charging me a fortune for a piece of paper that was hand written in blue ink with spelling mistakes (it looked like one of your mates had done it for the teacher on your behalf to get you out of games) he thought it was great.
Kicked up and got my money back.
Some think that they are the only ones with Degree's.

MysticalRain

Deleted User wrote: »

You seem to have a very strong opinion on how much I should get paid. So obviously you must know how much it is that I am actually paid.

Go ahead, enlighten everyone.

I know I pay twice as much over here for a worse service compared to what I was paying when I lived abroad.

MysticalRain

MysticalRain wrote: »

I know I pay twice as much over here for a worse service compared to what I was paying when I lived abroad.

To who? GPs? If that's the case look at my post above for an explanation as to why it's so expensive.

What country were you in before?

Healthcare is never cheap unfortunately. If you weren't paying for it upfront you were probably paying for it through taxes.

MysticalRain

Deleted User wrote: »

To who? GPs? If that's the case look at my post above for an explanation as to why it's so expensive.

Mainly to consultants. I see the same excuses trotted out every time by the members of the protected professions in this country. Despite the fact that other countries are just as expensive to operative in. We are in a recession after all, where costs are dropping all the time. Yet GP's, in this instance, are still increasing their prices.

What country were you in before?

New Zealand. A not dissimilar country to ours mind you.

Healthcare is never cheap unfortunately. If you weren't paying for it upfront you were probably paying for it through taxes.

True. But why I am paying twice as much for such a dismal service? If there is so much wrong with the health service, then why aren't doctors lobbying the government to fix it?

af_thefragile

Doctors also pay wayyyyyyyy more tax than the "average joe".

And working your ass off for 5-6 years in college only to work your ass for 70 hours a week to get into a 4 figure pay is also not that fancy. Also for the first 3-4 years the Hospital janitor gets paid more than the junior doctor who works twice as long and as hard as the janitor.

Nothing overrated or over paid about any of that.

Also about GP's that 60eur you pay doesn't all go straight into their pockets. They have **** loads of expenses. They need to pay the rent/bills/electricity/insurance/medical equipment etc. of the surgery. Then they need to pay their secretary, the junior doctor (if they have one), the nurse and the other staff that works there. Then most of the people who come to the surgery are medical card people for whom the HSE pays a set fee every year to the GP which isn't that much. Then they need to pay their taxes for which they need to pay their accountant who does all their taxes.

So at the end of the day, your average GP doesn't earn that much more than your average office worker.

SleepDoc

Dangerous Man wrote: »

Incidentally, since your doc couldn't diagnose something as obvious and simple as pneumonia, what the bloody hell did he think it was?

Pneumonia is not always obvious or simple.

The Google School of Medicine should have taught you that.

anncoates

Not in general but it is a pain in the tits to have to pay a doctor 50 quid to get antibiotics when you know you have something like a chest infection and that's what you need.

MysticalRain

MysticalRain wrote: »

Mainly to consultants. I see the same excuses trotted out every time by the members of the protected professions in this country. Despite the fact that other countries are just as expensive to operative in. We are in a recession after all, where costs are dropping all the time. Yet GP's, in this instance, are still increasing their prices.

In what way are we a "protected profession"?

True. But why I am paying twice as much for such a dismal service? If there is so much wrong with the health service, then why aren't doctors lobbying the government to fix it?

I wish we could. You haven't fully understood the meaning of the word bureaucracy until you've tried dealing with the HSE.

af_thefragile

MysticalRain wrote: »

True. But why I am paying twice as much for such a dismal service? If there is so much wrong with the health service, then why aren't doctors lobbying the government to fix it?

The doctors don't really have a union here. There is an Irish Medical Council which is supposed to lobby for the doctors and support them but in reality they do nothing apart from collecting their yearly fees from the doctors.

And the HSE's stance always seems to be "if you don't like the way it is then piss off!!!"... All the HSE cares about is cut backs.

juan.kerr

What a stupid thread. And that's from someone who has started fart and facese related threads.

SleepDoc

anncoates wrote: »

Not in general but it is a pain in the tits to have to pay a doctor 50 quid to get antibiotics when you know you have something like a chest infection and that's what you need.

Because all chest infections and antibiotics are the same.

MysticalRain

af_thefragile wrote: »

The doctors don't really have a union here. There is an Irish Medical Council which is supposed to lobby for the doctors and support them but in reality they do nothing apart from collecting their yearly fees from the doctors.

And the HSE's stance always seems to be "if you don't like the way it is then piss off!!!"... All the HSE cares about is cut backs.

Maybe they need to strike out on their own like John Crown is doing. Or form a proper lobby group if the Irish Medical Council is not up to the task.

Etc

Very mixed experiences from doctors, from cash only in Blackrock clinic to a consultant to swift effecient and excellent GP service from my GP who's Malaysian.

My experiences with a recurring eye issue over the last two years have been crazy. Only one doctor in seven I attended rightly diagnosed my condition. When I had a reoccurance subsequently, the doctor ignored the previous notes and told me I was wrong when I told her what the previous diagnosis was.

MysticalRain

MysticalRain wrote: »

Maybe they need to strike out on their own like John Crown is doing. Or form a proper lobby group if the Irish Medical Council is not up to the task.

Legislation prevents doctors from being represented by anyone other than the IMO.

The IMO are regarded as worse than useless by most docs, but unfortunately there is no alternative.

By the way the medical council and the IMO are different. The medical council regulates the profession, i.e says who can and can't practice, while the IMO (supposedly) acts like a trade union to represent doctors interests.

af_thefragile

^I meant the IMO yeah...

Also if any doctor protested, he'ld just end up being kicked out of the HSE and another doctor will get his job. Its that simple. The HSE just doesn't give a ****!
And all doctors are anyway working too hard and long hours to have time to be concerned about the state of the HSE and do anything about it.

greenbicycle

Not overrated in the slightest, i read the start of this thread earlier, meant to post and say how amazing a consultant i see regularly is, completely thorough, sends me for every test possible when i need them and ensures things happen quickly for him. I wouldnt be in the reasonably good health i am in now without him.

Anyway, this evening i went to h regular gp, again, lively man. I had nodded in agreement when reading about how expensive a gp visit was but still realise the importance of their job. Went into the surgery clutching my 55 euro. Doctor did his job, spent time talking to me, ensured i had everything i needed. Went to pay him and he just said "ah dont worry about it" and wouldnt take my money!

He must have been reading this thread! Score!

I love y do tors, not overrated at all?

Motorist

Doctor's, especially GPs, are not overrated given the $hite and constant moaning they have to listen to, consequences they face if any minor thing goes wrong, potential liability, years of training, continuing training, etc. And everyone has some story of some time their doctor supposedly missed something/prescribed something that supposedly would have killed them, only it was discovered by chance at the last minute :rolleyes:

MysticalRain

Deleted User wrote: »

In what way are we a "protected profession"?

It's mainly down to lack of competition. Lack of transparency regarding pricing. Restricted entry and shortage of doctors.

Much of it is due to government intervention, and lacking the balls to stand up to the Irish Medical Council. Especially the last point.

It's a world apart from my own profession (IT) where where have to compete on a much more open free market, and rightly so.

I wish we could. You haven't fully understood the meaning of the word bureaucracy until you've tried dealing with the HSE.

I've had a taste of it alright. There is something very rotten at the core of that organisation. I can't imagine how doctors can stand by and let that happen.

sock puppet

af_thefragile wrote: »

The doctors don't really have a union here. There is an Irish Medical Council which is supposed to lobby for the doctors and support them but in reality they do nothing apart from collecting their yearly fees from the doctors.

Why would a professional need a union?

seven_eleven

greenbicycle wrote: »

Not overrated in the slightest, i read the start of this thread earlier, meant to post and say how amazing a consultant i see regularly is, completely thorough, sends me for every test possible when i need them and ensures things happen quickly for him. I wouldnt be in the reasonably good health i am in now without him.

Anyway, this evening i went to h regular gp, again, lively man. I had nodded in agreement when reading about how expensive a gp visit was but still realise the importance of their job. Went into the surgery clutching my 55 euro. Doctor did his job, spent time talking to me, ensured i had everything i needed. Went to pay him and he just said "ah dont worry about it" and wouldnt take my money!

He must have been reading this thread! Score!

I love y do tors, not overrated at all?

Same. My doctor is great and always does his best and seems extremely knowledgeable in the most professional manner. Infact as far as Im aware he is one of the more senior doctors in Ireland and has been on TV a number of times as well as probably on some board or something like that (I dont know what you would call it :pac:)

Unfortunately some of my problems go beyond his scope of training and he has referred me to a specialist. €160 for a single visit to the private hospital specialist :eek:
I go private because public had nearly a 2 year waiting list :rolleyes:

MysticalRain

af_thefragile wrote: »

^I meant the IMO yeah...

Also if any doctor protested, he'ld just end up being kicked out of the HSE and another doctor will get his job. Its that simple. The HSE just doesn't give a ****!

Is that an opinion or has that actually ever happened?

Motorist

sock puppet wrote: »

Why would a professional need a union?

Collective bargaining when negotiating contracts with the HSE

Dangerous Man

SleepDoc wrote: »

Pneumonia is not always obvious or simple.

The Google School of Medicine should have taught you that.

Don't attempt to patronize me - pneumonia is bloody simple to diagnose and you know it. It's common as muck so any doctor worth his or her salt will see enough cases of it to make diagnosis fairly easy. The symptoms, for the most part, are clear as day. You're talking bull. Stethoscope, listen for rales, if unsure - chest X-ray. Done. GTFO.

Fuinseog

Dangerous Man wrote: »

Christ almighty... I know you know better by now but do not under any circumstances go back to that clown and if you know anybody who does go to him tell them to go somewhere else.

there was a time when people had a blind trust in doctors. they are supposed to be the experts.

juan.kerr

Etc wrote: »

I went to the doctor recently and I was given suppositories. Took them for two weeks and for all the good they did me I may as well have been sticking them up my @rse.

So what were you doing with them?

Motorist

Fuinseog wrote: »

there was a time when people had a blind trust in doctors. they are supposed to be the experts.

Now any gob$hite with a connection to the internet is a self-proclaimed "expert", interestingly enough usually after the fact when they have been given the all clear.

Fuinseog

juan.kerr wrote: »

What a stupid thread. And that's from someone who has started fart and facese related threads.

? moi?

Fuinseog

Motorist wrote: »

Now any gob$hite with a connection to the internet is a self-proclaimed "expert", interestingly enough usually after the fact when they have been given the all clear.

do you think the medical profession feel threatened by this?

MysticalRain

MysticalRain wrote: »

It's mainly down to lack of competition. Lack of transparency regarding pricing. Restricted entry and shortage of doctors.

Much of it is due to government intervention, and lacking the balls to stand up to the Irish Medical Council. Especially the last point.

It's a world apart from my own profession (IT) where where have to compete on a much more open free market, and rightly so.

There isn't a country in the developed world that doesn't have some sort of regulation for doctors. Why? Because otherwise absolutely anyone could put a sign up over their door and call themselves a doctor.

The Irish Medical Council is the only medical council in Europe that has a lay majority. The medical jobs market in this country is about as close to free market as you can get. Anyone that can show up with the right qualifications and show that they are competent to practice will be given a licence.

The reason there is a shortage of doctors here is that they are all leaving. About 70-80% of last years interns have left the country. Why? Because the working conditions here are horrendous, the training is not well structured, and there are limited opportunities for career progression.

Surely if things were as cushy as you seem to think they are for doctors here the country would be flooded with qualified doctors from neighbouring countries? I mean there's absolutely nothing stopping them. They'd be mad not to, right?

Yet there is an ongoing and worsening shortage of doctors.

I've had a taste of it alright. There is something very rotten at the core of that organisation. I can't imagine how doctors can stand by and let that happen.

What are we going to do? Strike? Yes that would really improve things for patients.

Motorist

Fuinseog wrote: »

do you think the medical profession feel threatened by this?

No, I don't think, for example. an internet connection is going to give you an MRI scan/CAT scan, diagnose some problem on your spine, choose suitable pain relief, give you an epidural injection, follow-up care, etc

SleepDoc

Dangerous Man wrote: »

Don't attempt to patronize me - pneumonia is bloody simple to diagnose and you know it. It's common as muck so any doctor worth his or her salt will see enough cases of it to make diagnosis fairly easy. The symptoms, for the most part, are clear as day. You're talking bull. Stethoscope, listen for rales, if unsure - chest X-ray. Done. GTFO.

Did google have a ceremony or just email you the degree?

Fuinseog

Motorist wrote: »

No, I don't think, for example. an internet connection is going to give you an MRI scan/CAT scan, diagnose some problem on your spine, give you an epidural injection, follow-up care, etc

I do not see anything wrong with informing yourself beforehand and asking questions. people tend to be more educated these days and do not appreciate a doctor who is condescending or dismissive. Doctors sometimes misdiagnose. they also sometimes they try to deliberately confuse the patient with technical jargon.

caroline1111

There are certain things that have to be taken into account when criticising the amount GPs charge:
-as well as having to pay the usual costs of rent, ESB, etc they have to pay for nurses, medical equipment, high insurance, etc
-the GP has spent roughly eleven years training to qualify - 5/6 in college, 1 intern year and 4 in GP training - as well as this being not cheap they have also had no life for most of this time, studying for constant exams, etc
-the amount a private customer pays has to go towards subsidising the medical card people, many of whom attend on a regular basis
-giving out about being 'in and out in 10 mins' is a bit ridiculous - if you have a cold or something wrong with you that has to run its course, theres not much the doctor can do - would you rather they made something up and gave you a prescription for an expensive drug you don't need?
-my local practice is excellent and has reduced their prices recently, if prices have gone up anywhere its because more people are getting medical cards and less are paying privately....
-people saying they have free or cheap healthcare in their own country are wrong - they're paying for it in taxes or some other way, who do they think is paying for it?

MysticalRain

Deleted User wrote: »

There isn't a country in the developed world that doesn't have some sort of regulation for doctors. Why? Because otherwise absolutely anyone could put a sign up over their door and call themselves a doctor.

The Irish Medical Council is the only medical council in Europe that has a lay majority. The medical jobs market in this country is about as close to free market as you can get. Anyone that can show up with the right qualifications and show that they are competent to practice will be given a licence.

The reason there is a shortage of doctors here is that they are all leaving. About 70-80% of last years interns have left the country. Why? Because the working conditions here are horrendous, the training is not well structured, and there are limited opportunities for career progression.

Surely if things were as cushy as you seem to think they are for doctors here the country would be flooded with qualified doctors from neighbouring countries? I mean there's absolutely nothing stopping them. They'd be mad not to, right?

Yet there is an ongoing and worsening shortage of doctors.

I have no problem with the concept of regulation. If the jobs market for doctors in this country is so free, then why do we see doctors like John Crown on TV/radio complaining that the government is not appointing enough doctors in this country?

One other point: no where did I say that doctors have a cushy job. I have no doubt they don't. But I am talking about pay here. Doctors in other countries don't have it easy either, yet they are happy to work for half as much.

What are we going to do? Strike? Yes that would really improve things for patients.

You tell me? What kind of creative and inovative solutions can several thousand of the most intelligent people in this country come up with here? I would love to hear it.

Fuinseog

SleepDoc wrote: »

Did google have a ceremony or just email you the degree?

surely there are typical signs of pneumonia?

seven_eleven

Dangerous Man wrote: »

Don't attempt to patronize me - pneumonia is bloody simple to diagnose and you know it. It's common as muck so any doctor worth his or her salt will see enough cases of it to make diagnosis fairly easy. The symptoms, for the most part, are clear as day. You're talking bull. Stethoscope, listen for rales, if unsure - chest X-ray. Done. GTFO.

Tbh Im sure you dont even know how to read an x-ray let alone how to use a stethoscope. I wish the general public would stop being such know it alls when it comes to jobs like doctors, ambulance, gardai etc.
What job do you have btw? so I can nit-pick at everything I ignorantly deem as looking a bit off, even though I really havent a clue, and then dictate to you about it.

juan.kerr

OP, why don't you do an experiment. Self diagnose yourself for the next 5 years then come back to us with details on how you get on.

Sounds like you'll be just fine with your search engine.

juan.kerr

Fuinseog wrote: »

? moi?

No, me.

bob50

Fuinseog wrote: »

there was a time when people had a blind trust in doctors. they are supposed to be the experts.

Regretfully a lot people still have trust in Docs

Consultants yes they know what they are doing

GPs No if you have a complaint that blood tests etc follow ups You will invariably be referred onto the hospital for futher tests etc

i think in general GPs are good for minor ailments cold flu etc but for anything more serious they dont cut it Money for old rope

MysticalRain

MysticalRain wrote: »

I have no problem with the concept of regulation. If the jobs market for doctors in this country is so free, then why do we see doctors like John Crown on TV/radio complaining that the government is not appointing enough doctors in this country?

You're completely contradicting yourself here. You've gone from saying there's not enough doctors for all the jobs in the country to saying there's not enough jobs for all the doctors.

No matter how many people the Medical Council grants licence to practice to, the government aren't going to start creating new jobs for them (although they are needed).

One other point: no where did I say that doctors have a cushy job. I have no doubt they don't. But I am talking about pay here. Doctors in other countries don't have it easy either, yet they are happy to work for half as much.

Really? Half as much? Please find me a country in the western world where someone gets half as much as me for doing the same job, although that might be difficult as you don't even know how much I'm paid.

Funny how those who are the most vocal about cutting doctors wages are the ones who have the least idea how much we are actually paid.

You tell me? What kind of creative and inovative solutions can several thousand of the most intelligent people in this country come up with here? I would love to hear it.

We can come up with plenty of solutions, but if the HSE have neither the inclination nor the money to implement them they're hardly going to do much good.

ceegee

Fuinseog wrote: »

SleepDoc wrote: »

Did google have a ceremony or just email you the degree?

surely there are typical signs of pneumonia?

Most things have typical symptoms. They also sometimes have atypical symptoms, these are where actual medical knowledge comes in handy. Not to mention the fact that many diseases share common symptoms, again medical knowledge us useful for figuring out which it is

MysticalRain

Deleted User wrote: »

You're completely contradicting yourself here. You've gone from saying there's not enough doctors for all the jobs in the country to saying there's not enough jobs for all the doctors.

No matter how many people the Medical Council grants licence to practice to, the government aren't going to start creating new jobs for them (although they are needed).

I am saying the government for whatever reason keeps the numbers artificially low by creating a bottle neck in the system. Maybe if there were more jobs here for qualified doctors, so many of them wouldn't be emigrating right now.

Really? Half as much? Please find me a country in the western world where someone gets half as much as me for doing the same job, although that might be difficult as you don't even know how much I'm paid.

I already did. Or are you too busy ranting to listen? It's no secret either that doctors in France and Germany are on almost half of what Irish doctors make.

Funny how those who are the most vocal about cutting doctors wages are the ones who have the least idea how much we are actually paid.

Oh please. Spare me the patronising guff. I am a paying customer, so the very least I should be entitled to is an opinion on where my money is going. I have had years of my life wasted for no other reason than over paid doctors (mainly consultants in fairness) who couldn't give a sh1t and administrative staff who were an even bigger disgrace. They couldn't even diagnose a simple injury, and yes, like many people in this thread, I had to resort to google in desperation when I should have been able to trust the doctors to do their job.

We can come up with plenty of solutions, but if the HSE have neither the inclination nor the money to implement them they're hardly going to do much good.

With all due respect that is a cop out. It's not even a question of money. If the HSE was better run, we would actually be spending less money on it.

Maybe I am too conditioned by life in the private sector to understand the mentality at play in an organisation like the HSE. If something is broken, we don't ask permission, we just fix it. Change starts from the bottom as well as the top.