are doctors overrated?

miss no stars

I recently put a theory to test. I was diagnosed with a rather unusual chronic and slightly degenerative but not life threatening condition as a kid. I was at a specialist for something else recently that has been linked in some studies to my condition. I mentioned that the symptoms I was having might be related to ( name of condition). I was told there is no way that I have the condition and to stop self diagnosing. She wouldn't even listen when I said that I had been diagnosed - apparently I was mistaken. Got sent away completely unsatisfied and discharged from the clinic after 18 months on a waiting list.

Now, nothing involved was especially threatening to my health, just stuff that needed following up on. But it begs the question - why are doctors THAT unwilling to actually look and see if the symptoms could be caused by something a patient suggests? To my mind that behaviour is downright dangerous. I am convinced I am right, I've plenty of published research to support it, but I left without it investigated because of closed mindedness. Oh well.

BESman

Pretty much every profession or occupation is overrated. Except doctors. Especially surgeons. The things they can do really astounds me. The odd GP might not be up to scratch and may overcharge too, but all in all, a profession I truly admire. Also, I think most people could try their hands at anything but it takes an elite few to enter the medical profession. If you're no good, you won't make it through med school.

MysticalRain

MysticalRain wrote: »

I already did. Or are you too busy ranting to listen? It's no secret either that doctors in France and Germany are on almost half of what Irish doctors make.

Still waiting for some actual numbers. Show me this mythical doctor who's doing my job for half the money.

If it's "no secret" it should be pretty straight forward to come up with the figures.

MysticalRain

Deleted User wrote: »

Still waiting for some actual numbers. Show me this mythical doctor who's doing my job for half the money.

If it's "no secret" it should be pretty straight forward to come up with the figures.

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/achtung-have-you-seen-the-size-of-the-irish-salaries-2428498.html

If you think I am lying or exaggerating about what doctors are paid in places like New Zealand, I can send you the specific address of the clinic I attended and you can ask them yourself. No doubt they will have a good laugh when they hear what Irish doctors are on.

MysticalRain

MysticalRain wrote: »

http://www.independent.ie/national-news/achtung-have-you-seen-the-size-of-the-irish-salaries-2428498.html

If you think I am lying or exaggerating about what doctors are paid in places like New Zealand, I can send you the specific address of the clinic I attended and you can ask them yourself. No doubt they will have a good laugh when they hear what Irish doctors are on.

A. German salaries are lower across the board, for pretty much all jobs, likely including yours.

B. The way specialist training works in Germany is far different to here. It is possible to become their equivalent of a consultant at a younger age, therefore comparing the starting salaries of both is misleading. A more accurate comparison would be with a senior registrar here.

C. New Zealand is full of Irish doctors, possibly including me in the not too distant future. Surely I'd be mad to leave if I'll be making half the money there that I am here?

I'm still waiting to see this magical doctor doing my job for half the money.

floggg

Fuinseog wrote: »

I was feeling under the weather recently and decided to seek out a GP. I paid 60 euro for a consultation that did not last 5 mins and for advice that I already knew and could have easily googled. The good doctor seemed to be somewhat condescending but I was too sick to argue.
I think in this day and age when people are more informed they are less likely to put up with any BS from doctors. teachers and guards are heavily criticised in the media but why not the medical profession?

I notice the older generation consider doctors as gods gift to mankind and some of them believe they are.

Way I see it, if you feel this information can easily be googled and yet you were too lazy to do so then I think its entirely fair game for a doctor to exploit that laziness by taking your money.

Of course if you are confident that the internet is a good way to diagnose medical problems, that raises other issues in itself. Which the internet is far more likely to exploit by taking your money than any doctor.

MysticalRain

Deleted User wrote: »

A. German salaries are lower across the board, for pretty much all jobs, likely including yours.

B. The way specialist training works in Germany is far different to here. It is possible to become their equivalent of a consultant at a younger age, therefore comparing the starting salaries of both is misleading. A more accurate comparison would be with a senior registrar here.

There isn't a difference of 50% with my job. I can assure you that much. Of course this ties in with over-inflated public salaries in general in Ireland. But even the average civil servant here doesn't make 50% more than his German counterpart.

If Germany has a more efficient system for training up consultants, then maybe the Irish Medical Council should be lobbying the government to adopt it.

C. New Zealand is full of Irish doctors, possibly including me in the not too distant future. Surely I'd be mad to leave if I'll be making half the money there that I am here?

and indeed you would if you think you are going to be on a salary equivalent to your Irish one in NZ. Welcome to how the rest of the world operates.

I'm still waiting to see this magical doctor doing my job for half the money.

Maybe you will some day if you plan on moving down under.

caroline1111

[QUOTEIf you think I am lying or exaggerating about what doctors are paid in places like New Zealand, I can send you the specific address of the clinic I attended and you can ask them yourself. No doubt they will have a good laugh when they hear what Irish doctors are on.][/QUOTE]

Irish doctors work much longer hours in much worse conditions than those in New Zealand - this is why Irish doctors go there but you don't see any of them here......

nua domhan

Lollipops23 wrote: »

I stay away from the doc as much as possible, but when I do go he's usually great (he's been the family doc for years).

However, I do take major umbridge with the price €55 for the Dr to take your blood pressure every 6months and tell you you're fine is just mental. (this is what you need to do to get the pill)

The pill does increase your chance of strokes and clots, you can ask my housemate who's been on warfarin for the past 3 years and she's only 28.

Though €55 is taking the piss, guess i should have done medicine.

tacofries

Ive a skin condition. Doctors put me on loads of stuff but they didnt work. went to specialist who gave me more stuff but it didnt work also. stopped all treatment against advice of doctors but rash cleared up to better than it was in years.


If you brought ur car to a harage and it wasnt fixed the first time you would ask for your money back yet when the doc gets it wrong we just try something different.

MysticalRain

MysticalRain wrote: »

and indeed you would if you think you are going to be on a salary equivalent to your Irish one in NZ. Welcome to how the rest of the world operates.

According to this page, and from talking to people I know who've worked in NZ, my salary over there will be pretty much comparable to what it would be here. Combined with lower taxes and lower cost of living it will make for a higher standard of living.

It seems the rest of the world operates quite a bit more nicely than the Irish healthcare system as far as doctors are concerned.

I'm not sure why you hold such a grudge against doctors. Maybe you've had a bad experience, maybe you're just trolling.

However it seems that the vehemence with which you denounce the medical profession in this country is completely unmatched by the level of knowledge you have with regards to how the medical profession works in this country, and how much we are actually paid.

MysticalRain

Deleted User wrote: »

According to this page, and from talking to people I know who've worked in NZ, my salary over there will be pretty much comparable to what it would be here. Combined with lower taxes and lower cost of living it will make for a higher standard of living.

Going by the highest salaries posted on that page, I highly doubt if there are many GP's in Ireland earning just €115,000 / year. Or consultants earning €166,00 per year for that matter.

It seems the rest of the world operates quite a bit more nicely than the Irish healthcare system as far as doctors are concerned.

I'm not sure why you hold such a grudge against doctors. Maybe you've had a bad experience, maybe you're just trolling.

However it seems that the vehemence with which you denounce the medical profession in this country is completely unmatched by the level of knowledge you have with regards to how the medical profession works in this country, and how much we are actually paid.

Less of the condescension please. I got more than enough of that from doctors when I dealt with them face to face. The cheek of you to call me a troll given what I have been through.

nua domhan

seven_eleven wrote: »

Honestly, you lot sound so begrudged over them and how much they get payed. Do you know how long they work for in hospitals? Often over 24 hour shifts or double that.

48 hr shifts?? Wow, thats some super doctors.

Some GP's are definitely overrated, as a pharmacist i've caught plenty of mistakes on prescriptions, medications and treatments. Some more of an annoyance for the patient, some potentially life threatening due to total laziness or inadequacy.

The hoops you have to go through just to get past the receptionist to save the doctors ass (that's if some of them will even take calls - and don't get me started on the little dears closing 90mins for lunch or only working half days) is ridiculous.

The poor wee pets won't work weekends either, unless it's for extortionate money. Had one sunday in the pharmacy where we had 8 patients come in one after the other with the same antibiotic......hands up who thinks it was a sheer coincidence they all had the same infection or the doctor couldn't think of any others to prescribe?

If i could, i'd pay off their student loans, drop their wages to a decent (not extortionate "mickey mouse money") level and let the money grabbing idiots that sprout the same 5 min diagnoses run off to New Zealand or wherever and leave the real doctors who did medicine to actually help and care about people behind!

ps all respect to hospital doctors - they're in a different league and deserve double whatever they get!

Sarky

nua domhan wrote: »

48 hr shifts?? Wow, thats some super doctors.

A regular enough occurrence for rural GPs, especially when an unpleasant illness breaks out in the community. My own father used to be a GP, and I recall many, many nights where he got less than an hour of sleep because the phone kept ringing because someone else had caught something and panicked and required a house call. And then back in for work the next day, where he'd be unable to leave for 3-4 hours after the advertised time because so many people were queuing up to complain about the headaches they got when they stuck a screwdriver up their nose or whatever. He got every third weekend off, but only because he managed an arrangement with 2 GPs from neighbouring communities where they'd each spend a weekend looking after two communities worth of patients.

Of course you'll get bad GPs, like you get less skilled or talented people in every profession that ever was. But the amount of time, money family, friends and happiness GPs give up to keep a locality healthy, in the face of a useless HSE, constant apathy from the government and entitled ignorant plebs is severely underrated by far too many people in this country, and anyone tarring them all with the "overrated" brush should feel terribly ashamed of themselves. You probably won't, though. Far easier to begrudge.

seven_eleven

nua domhan wrote: »

48 hr shifts?? Wow, thats some super doctors.

Some GP's are definitely overrated, as a pharmacist i've caught plenty of mistakes on prescriptions, medications and treatments. Some more of an annoyance for the patient, some potentially life threatening due to total laziness or inadequacy.

The hoops you have to go through just to get past the receptionist to save the doctors ass (that's if some of them will even take calls - and don't get me started on the little dears closing 90mins for lunch or only working half days) is ridiculous.

The poor wee pets won't work weekends either, unless it's for extortionate money. Had one sunday in the pharmacy where we had 8 patients come in one after the other with the same antibiotic......hands up who thinks it was a sheer coincidence they all had the same infection or the doctor couldn't think of any others to prescribe?

If i could, i'd pay off their student loans, drop their wages to a decent (not extortionate "mickey mouse money") level and let the money grabbing idiots that sprout the same 5 min diagnoses run off to New Zealand or wherever and leave the real doctors who did medicine to actually help and care about people behind!

ps all respect to hospital doctors - they're in a different league and deserve double whatever they get!

I agree with some of what you said. Sounds like there are just quite a few bad GP's around. Fortunately my main doctor, and the 2 others in my local clinic are great and very professional. From what Ive seen, he's there from about 7:30am until past 6pm most days.

and yeah some doctors do be in the hospital for nearly 48 hours. They get sleep of course but they're under a heavy workload.

opinion guy

MysticalRain wrote: »

Less of the condensation please.

Condensation is the process by which a gas changes to a solid or a liquid.....<- that is condescension

seven_eleven wrote: »

and yeah some doctors do be in the hospital for nearly 48 hours. They get sleep of course but they're under a heavy workload.

Do they get sleep though ?

Sindri

Some doctors aren't thorough enough I think, I don't think they're overrated though, at least not by me.

My GP dismissed my symptoms out of hand as migraines because I sometimes have migraines even though they were nothing like them and some doctors are just cowboys. Most doctors I've met have been very good but one eye specialist I went to see scheduled appointments 15 minutes apart from one another so my appointment was at 1 but i only saw him at 6:15 for about 20 minutes. Sent me back to my optometrist. This cost €300. Requested it without a shred of shame.

I do think psychologists are overrated though.

Motorist

nua domhan wrote: »

48 hr shifts?? Wow, thats some super doctors.

Some GP's are definitely overrated, as a pharmacist i've caught plenty of mistakes on prescriptions, medications and treatments. Some more of an annoyance for the patient, some potentially life threatening due to total laziness or inadequacy.

The hoops you have to go through just to get past the receptionist to save the doctors ass (that's if some of them will even take calls - and don't get me started on the little dears closing 90mins for lunch or only working half days) is ridiculous.

The poor wee pets won't work weekends either, unless it's for extortionate money. Had one sunday in the pharmacy where we had 8 patients come in one after the other with the same antibiotic......hands up who thinks it was a sheer coincidence they all had the same infection or the doctor couldn't think of any others to prescribe?

If i could, i'd pay off their student loans, drop their wages to a decent (not extortionate "mickey mouse money") level and let the money grabbing idiots that sprout the same 5 min diagnoses run off to New Zealand or wherever and leave the real doctors who did medicine to actually help and care about people behind!

ps all respect to hospital doctors - they're in a different league and deserve double whatever they get!

If you actually are a pharmacist, you come across as completely unprofessional ranting and b!tching about a healthcare colleague in the manner displayed here. You seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder talking about GP's. I'd expect that kind of ignorant, uninformed, clueless rant from a Joe Duffy caller. You really don't have a clue with your vague generalisations, and are quite the embarrassment.

seven_eleven

opinion guy wrote: »

Condensation is the process by which a gas changes to a solid or a liquid.....<- that is condescension




Do they get sleep though ?

Id certainly hope so, but I imagine its not much. Enough to keep them going.

nua domhan

Motorist wrote: »

If you actually are a pharmacist, you come across as completely unprofessional ranting and b!tching about a healthcare colleague in the manner displayed here. You seem to have a massive chip on your shoulder talking about GP's. I'd expect that kind of ignorant, uninformed, clueless rant from a Joe Duffy caller. You really don't have a clue with your vague generalisations, and are quite the embarrassment.

Some Gp's

"ranting and b!tching about a healthcare colleague in the manner displayed here"

In what professional manner would you like me to rant and b!tch? Some GP's i see as healthcare colleagues who will offer advice, try to get to the bottom of diagnoses and problems, will work late, apologise for script mistakes, seek to learn from errors, take the time with a dying persons family and put the patient before themselves, apparently from this thread THEY are hard to find.

Others i see not a healthcare colleagues, but as tax dodging, condescending know-it-all's riding the gravy train, who will scream at the top of their lungs that anyone who dares to criticise them is "unprofessional". In what way is it unprofessional for a pharmacist to criticise some GP's? Should I not because they are "better than me"? It's the same attitude that some can't be bothered to take a call to check a dose over the phone, or refuse to fax an emergency prescription for a patient because "it's policy".

"ignorant, uninformed, clueless......You really don't have a clue with your vague generalisations, and are quite the embarrassment"

I have quite the experience and am well informed on the practices, social lives, income and education of quite a lot of GP's with my 8 yr pharmacy experience in both Hospital/ Community pharmacy and social life. I suppose i have only that and the testimony of hundreds of patients about their GP's to rely on......oh, and the documented evidence of mistakes I kept for a few months.

Not a complete audit of course (that would be here....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9238524/Millions-of-GP-prescriptions-contain-dangerous-errors-research.html

but mine would give a ball park figure of general incompetence).

What may i ask, do you do "motorist" to be such an expert on all this?

Motorist

nua domhan wrote: »

Some Gp's

"ranting and b!tching about a healthcare colleague in the manner displayed here"

In what professional manner would you like me to rant and b!tch? Some GP's i see as healthcare colleagues who will offer advice, try to get to the bottom of diagnoses and problems, will work late, apologise for script mistakes, seek to learn from errors, take the time with a dying persons family and put the patient before themselves, apparently from this thread THEY are hard to find.

Others i see not a healthcare colleagues, but as tax dodging, condescending know-it-all's riding the gravy train, who will scream at the top of their lungs that anyone who dares to criticise them is "unprofessional". In what way is it unprofessional for a pharmacist to criticise some GP's? Should I not because they are "better than me"? It's the same attitude that some can't be bothered to take a call to check a dose over the phone, or refuse to fax an emergency prescription for a patient because "it's policy".

"ignorant, uninformed, clueless......You really don't have a clue with your vague generalisations, and are quite the embarrassment"

I have quite the experience and am well informed on the practices, social lives, income and education of quite a lot of GP's with my 8 yr pharmacy experience in both Hospital/ Community pharmacy and social life. I suppose i have only that and the testimony of hundreds of patients about their GP's to rely on......oh, and the documented evidence of mistakes I kept for a few months.

Not a complete audit of course (that would be here....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9238524/Millions-of-GP-prescriptions-contain-dangerous-errors-research.html

but mine would give a ball park figure of general incompetence).

What may i ask, do you do "motorist" to be such an expert on all this?

Have a bit of self-respect or at least for the profession you claim to represent.

First of all you criticise all GPs - now in the most pathetic conciliatory manner you throw in "some" GPs. You obviously have massive contempt for GPs describing them as "tax dodging, condescending know-it-all's riding the gravy train".

You have also given away your massive inferiority complex "Should I not because they are "better than me"?". Throwing a tantrum like a child does not strengthen your position or emphasise your role.

Once again your vague, generalised rants are cringeworthy and embarrassing. You dispense medication - you don't have the faintest idea about diagnosis or what a GP does. Stop letting yourself down - youre dragging your role and the work of your colleagues into the gutter with every word of your bitter diatribe.

nua domhan

1. You haven't answered anything there.
2. check my original post (unedited) where i stated "Some GP's are definitely overrated".
3. If you cannot grasp the significance of putting "better than me" in inverted commas then you might not be able to keep up with any significant arguments.
4. Again, please enlighten me how you know about diagnoses or what a GP or Pharmacist does.

opinion guy

seven_eleven wrote: »

Id certainly hope so, but I imagine its not much. Enough to keep them going.

How much do you think is enough ?

Dangerous Man

seven_eleven wrote: »

Tbh Im sure you dont even know how to read an x-ray let alone how to use a stethoscope. I wish the general public would stop being such know it alls when it comes to jobs like doctors, ambulance, gardai etc.
What job do you have btw? so I can nit-pick at everything I ignorantly deem as looking a bit off, even though I really havent a clue, and then dictate to you about it.

Wait a minute you - I responded to a post from someone who said a doctor failed to diagnose her pneumonia and ended up hospitalized. I pointed out that pneumonia is a fairly simple condition to diagnose and that there's no bloody excuse not to. Of course, you don't address anything I said because, well, what I said was correct.

A lot of people, myself included, take their health seriously and choose to equip themselves with knowledge so they can be sure they're getting appropriate treatment should they need it; if you have a problem with that - there's something wrong with you. Democratization of information is a good thing.

Fuinseog

miss no stars wrote: »

I recently put a theory to test. I was diagnosed with a rather unusual chronic and slightly degenerative but not life threatening condition as a kid. I was at a specialist for something else recently that has been linked in some studies to my condition. I mentioned that the symptoms I was having might be related to ( name of condition). I was told there is no way that I have the condition and to stop self diagnosing. She wouldn't even listen when I said that I had been diagnosed - apparently I was mistaken. Got sent away completely unsatisfied and discharged from the clinic after 18 months on a waiting list.

Now, nothing involved was especially threatening to my health, just stuff that needed following up on. But it begs the question - why are doctors THAT unwilling to actually look and see if the symptoms could be caused by something a patient suggests? To my mind that behaviour is downright dangerous. I am convinced I am right, I've plenty of published research to support it, but I left without it investigated because of closed mindedness. Oh well.

because the patient is apparently an inferior being, not worthy of respect.

Fuinseog

seven_eleven wrote: »

I agree with some of what you said. Sounds like there are just quite a few bad GP's around. Fortunately my main doctor, and the 2 others in my local clinic are great and very professional. From what Ive seen, he's there from about 7:30am until past 6pm most days.

and yeah some doctors do be in the hospital for nearly 48 hours. They get sleep of course but they're under a heavy workload.

junior doctors are massively over worked (and in the days of head shops good customers). how can you make life threatening decisions if are completly exhausted?

Fuinseog

floggg wrote: »

Way I see it, if you feel this information can easily be googled and yet you were too lazy to do so then I think its entirely fair game for a doctor to exploit that laziness by taking your money.

Of course if you are confident that the internet is a good way to diagnose medical problems, that raises other issues in itself. Which the internet is far more likely to exploit by taking your money than any doctor.

i also mentioned the medical check up required for work that cost 70 euro.
he took my blood pressure. otherwise I could have taken my own pulse, weighed and measured myself.

Fuinseog

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2195488/Grumpy-receptionists-problems-making-appointment-fuel-surge-patients-complaints-GPs.html

tomtherobot

There's a great book by a guy called Ivan Illich that really tackles the medical professions. It's a bit long winded but it's worth reading a synopsis of his arguments if you can.

Personally I think doctors are very important but still overrated and definitely in this country overpaid! Doctors are great for medical emergencies, broken leg, cancer treatment etc. but when it comes to the day to day factors that determine our health, what really makes a difference is diet, exercise, income, stress.

Also something that bugs me about the medical approach is how they tend to be prioritized above other more important factors. For example, there's a lot of criticisms of medical charities. They come to an area, vaccinate everyone for malaria, people are so hungry, they die instead of some other disease. The money wasted on doctors and medication might instead have been used to provide food, housing, water sensitization etc.

sidneykidney

First things first, I have'nt read the thread,so what I say may have been discussed earlier.

Doctors are not overrated, not the ones I have had dealings with. As a transplant patient I cant praise them enough. I owe my life to their skills.