Parades commission is useless and toothless

Dubhlinner

Chuck Stone wrote: »

I think the concerned locals are going to talk with representatives of the marchers (it was on the news). The Locals came out and said they are not seeking to stop the march and that they are just asking that the marchers exercise a bit of control when they pass the church.

Very dignified.

(this is from memory - I can't find the clip)



Edit.

it was a very dignified and reasonable response it must be said. I wonder is it over-appeasing though. I think for the parades commission system to work there needs to be a dynamic in place that misbehavior like playing the famine song has a proportionate response.

junder

What the actually want is that no band plays from carlise circus until the end of donegall street which is not as unconditional as that are making out. Should this matter be dropped I believe that the loyal orders wil refrain from playing past the chapel on donegall street. The choice to play on Black Sunday was done as a protest against the parades commission and no other reason

Fenian Army

Over appeasement imo.

They flouted the rules, so did numerous other bands and were supported by Unionist politicians in doing so. The book needs to be thrown at them, it's no time for the croppies to lie down, so to speak.

Fenian Army

junder wrote: »

What the actually want is that no band plays from carlise circus until the end of donegall street which is not as unconditional as that are making out. Should this matter be dropped I believe that the loyal orders wil refrain from playing past the chapel on donegall street. The choice to play on Black Sunday was done as a protest against the parades commission and no other reason

What do you think of the bands actions? Good, or bad?

They protested against the parades commission by playing the Sash outside a church? Was the PC not correct in banning the band for playing sectarian songs outside a church? If not, why?

junder

Fenian Army wrote: »

junder wrote: »

What the actually want is that no band plays from carlise circus until the end of donegall street which is not as unconditional as that are making out. Should this matter be dropped I believe that the loyal orders wil refrain from playing past the chapel on donegall street. The choice to play on Black Sunday was done as a protest against the parades commission and no other reason

What do you think of the bands actions? Good, or bad?

They protested against the parades commission by playing the Sash outside a church? Was the PC not correct in banning the band for playing sectarian songs outside a church? If not, why?

What actually is sectarian about the sash?

Fenian Army

junder wrote: »

What actually is sectarian about the sash?

I never said the Sash was Sectarian, I was referring to the famine song. Care to address the rest of my post?

Fenian Army

Regardless the Sash is clearly provocative and is used as such to stir things up - hence why it was sung.

getzls

Fenian Army wrote: »

Regardless the Sash is clearly provocative and is used as such to stir things up - hence why it was sung.

Provocative? Who too? Not any reasonable person imo.

Fenian Army

getzls wrote: »

Provocative? Who too? Not any reasonable person imo.

Lets not get bogged down in talking about the sash, I was referring to the famine song, but fwiw many nationalists think the Sash is provocative. Regardless they were not supposed to play ANY music outside the church.

junder

Fenian Army wrote: »

junder wrote: »

What actually is sectarian about the sash?

I never said the Sash was Sectarian, I was referring to the famine song. Care to address the rest of my post?

You mentioned the sash, not the famine song

golden lane

regardless of what "this means" and that "means2.......they can just be ignored.....

if they are being ignored....they cannot mean anything......

in a few generations time.......all this will be laughed at......

Fenian Army

junder wrote: »

You mentioned the sash, not the famine song

Stop deflecting, you know as well as I do that the sectarian song the band got in trouble over was the famine song.

Again:

What do you think of the bands actions? Good, or bad?

They protested against the parades commission by playing the Sash outside a church? Was the PC not correct in banning the band for playing sectarian songs(ie the famine song) outside a church? If not, why?

woodoo

Fenian Army wrote: »

Stop deflecting,

All these NI threads are the same. I think when Junder and his buddies like the artist formerly known as KiethAFC start deflecting then that is as good as a win as far as your point is concerned.

Sunnyisland

voodoo wrote: »

All these NI threads are the same. I think when junder and his buddies like the artist formerly known as KeithaFC start deflecting then that is as good as a win as far as your point is concerned.

That's the problem, Its very rare to get a discussion going on NI here without the usual tit for tat postings taken place, Actually same with the middle east ones.

Chuck Stone

Junder, you've done little but avoid questions and engage in whataboutery.

Waste of bloody time.

Fenian Army

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Junder, you've done little but avoid questions and engage in whataboutery.

Waste of bloody time.

So it seems.

Given his lack on condemnation it appears he supports the band in question, and its activities.

junder

woodoo wrote: »

Fenian Army wrote: »

Stop deflecting,

All these NI threads are the same. I think when Junder and his buddies like the artist formerly known as KiethAFC start deflecting then that is as good as a win as far as your point is concerned.

And what have you won exactly?

Fenian Army

junder wrote: »

And what have you won exactly?

I wouldnt mind a nice drum.

Will you answer the questions I asked junder? If you and your community want to be understood you need to articulate your POV.

Why is your community sticking up for a band which played sectarian songs outside a church?

K-9

junder wrote: »

And what have you won exactly?

This isn't a blog or twitter, it's a discussion site, either engage in the discussion by answering questions from other posters or don't bother taking part at all.

Can'tseeme

Nodin wrote: »

One band was involved in this. Again, I think its throwing a few babies out with the bathwater.

Tbf Nodin, it may have only been one band caught on camera. The bigger problem is the lack of condemnation from Unionist politicians on a pretty sickening sectarian act by the band.

I've heard a few lines from The Famine Song before. But I took it upon myself to check and find the lyrics online. I was going to copy and paste them but I thought I might be in breach of Boards.ie policy. Pretty sick stuff tbh.

Jelle1880

Odd how certain people only show one side of the issue.

Perhaps people could take a look at this:

This was before and after a Republican band passed by an Orange Hall in Clifton Street.

Is it that odd that Loyalists feel as if the PC are against them, when there are no restrictions placed on such Republican parades ?

Please ignore the blatant irony of people wearing football tops from English clubs. :pac:

TOMASJ

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Odd how certain people only show one side of the issue.

Perhaps people could take a look at this:

This was before and after a Republican band passed by an Orange Hall in Clifton Street.

Is it that odd that Loyalists feel as if the PC are against them, when there are no restrictions placed on such Republican parades ?

Please ignore the blatant irony of people wearing football tops from English clubs. :pac:

this is a photo of the the UVF men who had keys to the Orange hall platform and were goading the parade.
As usual there are two sides to every story.

woodoo

Looking at pictures like these makes me glad i'm not from Northern Ireland.

Jelle1880

TOMASJ wrote: »

this is a photo of the the UVF men who had keys to the Orange hall platform and were goading the parade.
As usual there are two sides to every story.

I don't know any of these men (and neither do you I guess), and they don't seem to be goading anyone there.

But tell me this: If a Loyalist parade is forbidden to walk past a Catholic Church (which I can understand), why is the same not done for a Republican parade walking past an Orange Lodge ?

Surely they are both equally sensitive ?

Chuck Stone

Jelle1880 wrote: »

[YOUTUBE|youtube.vid[/YOUTUBE]

Ehhh.. minor disturbances. How many PSNI officers were injured? None? Compared with 40 the other night by Loyalists. Also, if you actually watch the video there is clearly a large contingent of wardens trying to quell trouble (yellow vests).

So what we have, if we compare the two recent disturbances, is orchestrated violence and attacks against the PSNI by Loyalists resulting in 40 officers being injured versus minor disturbances by Nationalists which were being quelled by wardens who seemed to be complimenting the policing of the area.

Is it that odd that Loyalists feel as if the PC are against them, when there are no restrictions placed on such Republican parades ?

This is bull****. Are you really trying to say that Republicans can march where and when they like?

Please ignore the blatant irony of people wearing football tops from English clubs. :pac:

Scottish jerseys.

Is the idea there that they're recording each other in a "oooh I'm gonna find out who you are and get you" way? Is that the idea?

Feel sorry for anyone normal within a hundred mile radius of that.

Jelle1880

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Ehhh.. minor disturbances. How many PSNI officers were injured? None? Compared with 40 the other night by Loyalists. Also, if you actually watch the video there is clearly a large contingent of wardens trying to quell trouble (yellow vests).

So what we have, if we compare the two recent disturbances, is orchestrated violence and attacks against the PSNI by Loyalists resulting in 40 officers being injured versus minor disturbances by Nationalists which were being quelled by wardens who seemed to be complimenting the policing of the area.

Where did I compare the situations regarding violence ?
I merely pointed out that apparently for some it's perfectly ok to antagonize others and to walk where they want.

And please don't try to do away with the riots as one-sided.

This is bull****. Are you really trying to say that Republicans can march where and when they like?

This one seems to...

Scottish jerseys.

Manchester is Scotland now ?

By the way, is it true that the Parades Commission is publicly unaccountable ?
How the hell can you expect either side to trust an organisation which has a final say in these matters, but doesn't have to justify any of their decisions ?

Fenian Army

Jelle1880 wrote: »

I don't know any of these men (and neither do you I guess), and they don't seem to be goading anyone there.

But tell me this: If a Loyalist parade is forbidden to walk past a Catholic Church (which I can understand), why is the same not done for a Republican parade walking past an Orange Lodge ?

Surely they are both equally sensitive ?

Thats not the case, they weren't allowed play music along the entire road, but they stopped and played outside the church. No one said they couldn't march. They got banned for playing sectarian songs. The two instances are not comparable at all, and you clearly have your facts wrong.

Churches have extra significance than ordinary buildings, or even protestant churches, due to the presence of the body and blood of christ inside, that's the catholic belief.

The republican parade was one commemorating a protestant. It was not sectarian. It was entirely legal and it broke no restrictions.

Fenian Army

Oh, and when you start having a go at people over their attire it damages your argument and makes you look petty, like you are dragging football rivalries into this.

Jelle1880

So a Roman Catholic Church is more important than any other religious building, how tolerant.

And I know why that parade had restrictions placed on it, but that doesn't change the fact that many other parades are restricted for no valid or clear reason.

The main issue for many of the Unionist community is that they perceive this as bias against them, just like I'm sure Nationalists will feel the same.

Chuck Stone

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Where did I compare the situations regarding violence ?
I merely pointed out that apparently for some it's perfectly ok to antagonize others and to walk where they want.

Your first post in the thread is 'but look at this'. The intent to compare was implicit.

Manchester is Scotland now ?

I was referring to the Celtic Jerseys - I didn't know you were referring to the club owned by Americans with loads of foreigners playing for it.

How the hell can you expect either side to trust an organisation which has a final say in these matters, but doesn't have to justify any of their decisions?

It's the only show in town. What do you propose as an alternative?

Jelle1880

Making them accountable for decisions would be a start.

Or is it not an option to want to change something, instead of outright abolishing it ?
There doesn't have to be an alternative, just a debate about the workings of the PC as it is.

Fenian Army

Jelle1880 wrote: »

So a Roman Catholic Church is more important than any other religious building, how tolerant.

And I know why that parade had restrictions placed on it, but that doesn't change the fact that many other parades are restricted for no valid or clear reason.

The main issue for many of the Unionist community is that they perceive this as bias against them, just like I'm sure Nationalists will feel the same.

I said had significance - which they do for the reasons I outlined. Doesnt mean that other religious buildings aren't important, or that I'm intolerant. Nice spin though.

Fenian Army

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Making them accountable for decisions would be a start.

Or is it not an option to want to change something, instead of outright abolishing it ?
There doesn't have to be an alternative, just a debate about the workings of the PC as it is.

Can the decisions be judicially reviewed?

Chuck Stone

Jelle1880 wrote: »

The main issue for many of the Unionist community is that they perceive this as bias against them

Tens of thousands of loyalists turn out for the marching season year-on-year and many believe that there is a bias against them? All that has happened with parade rerouteing is what should have happened decades ago.

Jelle1880

Fenian Army wrote: »

I said had significance - which they do for the reasons I outlined. Doesnt mean that other religious buildings aren't important, or that I'm intolerant. Nice spin though.

Nothing to do with spin, you clearly stated that for Catholics a Church is far more important than other religious buildings, as if that should have any bearing on a decision.

And yes, I believe they can be judicially reviewed but they don't have to explain their decisions or the reasoning behind them.

Baralis1

I must say, looking at both videos on this thread, it's a very poor reflection on both communities. To be honest, the whole parades thing is quite childish in my opinion, you can't march here and I can't march there. Both communities are out to rub each other's faces in it.

As a resident of the Republic of Ireland, I am embarrassed by this sort of stuff happening on the same island, I just hope there aren't people in other countries who lump us all in together and think this sort of nonsense and hatred between communities happens here as well.

getzls

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Odd how certain people only show one side of the issue.

Perhaps people could take a look at this:

This was before and after a Republican band passed by an Orange Hall in Clifton Street.

Is it that odd that Loyalists feel as if the PC are against them, when there are no restrictions placed on such Republican parades ?

Please ignore the blatant irony of people wearing football tops from English clubs. :pac:

Nice they way the Republicans get the under age to throw stones knowing the Police can do little about it.

Who's that c0nt with the stick and mobile? Phoning his IRA friends? Guess he deserves his DLA for all the years he has been oppressed. C9nt.

Chuck Stone

getzls wrote: »

Who's that c0nt with the stick and mobile? Phoning his IRA friends? Guess he deserves his DLA for all the years he has been oppressed. C9nt.

You sound like you have a lot of hate in your heart.

TOMASJ

Jelle1880 wrote: »

TOMASJ wrote: »

this is a photo of the the UVF men who had keys to the Orange hall platform and were goading the parade.
As usual there are two sides to every story.

I don't know any of these men (and neither do you I guess), and they don't seem to be goading anyone there.

But tell me this: If a Loyalist parade is forbidden to walk past a Catholic Church (which I can understand), why is the same not done for a Republican parade walking past an Orange Lodge ?

Surely they are both equally sensitive ?

I think if you care to do some research you will find that they are UVF thugs

If IRA men got keys from the priest and stood stood on a balcony goading and videoing Loyalists walking the church your comparison would stand up,

As it is your orange hall is not a house of worship

Jelle1880

That 'research' seems to come mainly from republican websites, like ir-news, Ardoyne Republicans blog,...

Now, I'm not doubting that those websites are clued up as to who's who over there, but it's hardly compelling evidence.

TOMASJ

Jelle1880 wrote: »

That 'research' seems to come mainly from republican websites, like ir-news, Ardoyne Republicans blog,...

Now, I'm not doubting that those websites are clued up as to who's who over there, but it's hardly compelling evidence.

Did not hear the UVF denie that they are from that terriost group

Can'tseeme

I live in Belfast and what goes on in North Belfast feels like a million miles away.

My personal opinion of these parades is that they offer nothing to either community. Kids getting dragged into this nonsense is doing nothing but teaching hate. But they exist and people have a right to 'parade', etc.

Parading is a huge part of Loyalist/Protestant culture, they will pass Catholic Churches along certain routes. That it NOT an issue. How they behave passing a Church is. Going in circles, playing The Famine Song, is totally unacceptable, Sectarian and they were rightly punished by the PC. I was glad to see the heads of the main Protestants churches condemn this. The lack of condemnation from the Loyal Orders or Unionist Politicians and certain posters on this forum is shameful.

That Henry Joe McCracken Parade, organised by dissidents, is a mirror image of Loyalists contentious parades in the same area. I've no time for any of them, they offer nothing positive for either community.

SaoriseBiker

Jelle1880 wrote: »

Odd how certain people only show one side of the issue.

Perhaps people could take a look at this:

This was before and after a Republican band passed by an Orange Hall in Clifton Street.

Is it that odd that Loyalists feel as if the PC are against them, when there are no restrictions placed on such Republican parades ?

Please ignore the blatant irony of people wearing football tops from English clubs. :pac:

PSNI Chief Supt George Clarke said there is "no doubt" the violence was organised, however it is too early to say if paramilitaries were involved.

"The violence did come from both sides of the community but initially, certainly, it came from within loyalism," he told UTV. "That's a fact. "There was clearly orchestration, there's no doubt about that.

"Three hundred people on Clifton Street, masonry broken up by people using concrete saws, there's no doubt about orchestration, but I'm not going to stand here and tell you I believe an organisation was involved - it's frankly too early to say that."


http://www.u.tv/news/Trouble-clearly-orchestrated-PSNI/bb182278-d737-4c2e-be22-9a5e719dced0

SaoriseBiker

Listening to the Nolan show, very commendably the Methodist church have asked that FM Robinson should be vocal in denouncing the violence and those instigating it. Instead Robinson has been silent and let Dodds and McCausland do all the question dodging. Now we all know how Robinson and the gang have flirted with loyalists down the years when it suits them.

So much for unionist respect for " law and order " And just remember, their has been 62 of Robinson's police officers injured due to the loyalist riots, some ' First Minister '

whitelines

Fenian Army wrote: »

Thats not the case, they weren't allowed play music along the entire road, but they stopped and played outside the church. No one said they couldn't march. They got banned for playing sectarian songs. The two instances are not comparable at all, and you clearly have your facts wrong.

Churches have extra significance than ordinary buildings, or even protestant churches, due to the presence of the body and blood of christ inside, that's the catholic belief.

The republican parade was one commemorating a protestant. It was not sectarian. It was entirely legal and it broke no restrictions.

Why would an Irish Republican care what Catholics thought was inside their church? Surely a Republican would care about Protestant sensitivities every bit as much as Catholic sensitivities?

Why do you see a religious parade as somehow more offensive than a political parade? Surely it's the impact on those who the parade impinges on that matters - not the supposed motivation of the marchers?

whitelines

TOMASJ wrote: »

I think if you care to do some research you will find that they are UVF thugs

If IRA men got keys from the priest and stood stood on a balcony goading and videoing Loyalists walking the church your comparison would stand up,

As it is your orange hall is not a house of worship

Actually, religious observance does take place in Orange halls.

whitelines

SaoriseBiker wrote: »

Listening to the Nolan show, very commendably the Methodist church have asked that FM Robinson should be vocal in denouncing the violence and those instigating it. Instead Robinson has been silent and let Dodds and McCausland do all the question dodging. Now we all know how Robinson and the gang have flirted with loyalists down the years when it suits them.

So much for unionist respect for " law and order " And just remember, their has been 62 of Robinson's police officers injured due to the loyalist riots, some ' First Minister '

Perhaps Robinson is 'reaching out' to the Loyalist 'working class'? Isn't that what Republicans are always demanding?

Do The PSNI belong to Robinson? Do they also belong to McGuiness?

Does it worry you when police officers are attacked - or only when they are attacked by Loyalists?

the_syco

woodoo wrote: »

By the way what the hell was Pat Doherty of Sinn Fein doing helping one of those bands from castlederg apply for money.

Divide and conquer. Also the SF may be the protestants representative...

junder wrote: »

are we going to get put of the road? Is it right that we could put of our road?

Do the republicans march down "your" road?

=-=

Meh. Have them both sides in a field with all people made into two people tied together at the legs, and handbags at noon. About as useful as the current parades, but they'd get their anger out without harming anyone.

I still get asked if there are "parades and riots" near me when I'm abroad.

woodoo

Jelle1880 wrote: »

So a Roman Catholic Church is more important than any other religious building, how tolerant.

Jelle they are not comparable at all. Walking past an Orange Lodge that marches themselves can hardly be compared to walking past a church (of either religion). How in Gods name could the Orange Order get upset by marching past their lodge when marching is all they themselves seem to do.