To PhD or not to PhD?

naomi23

I'm considering leaving the working world and starting a PhD in Geography in Maynooth or Trinity. It's early days though, I haven't approached either University, checked out funding or written up a proposal yet even though I have an idea as to where I'm going based on my previous masters and work at present.

However, I've read a serious amount of negative blogs about PhD's; the loneliness, frustration, dropping out half way through, lack of funding etc. I was wondering whether anyone has any positive stories on doing a PhD or is it really that bad? Also am I completely mad to leave my paid job to do a PhD and hope to join academia at the age of 27? I know I'm not ancient but still, am I better to stay on, save up and hope to self fund myself. Am I also mad to even think there is a remnant of funding left in Ireland for PhD study??

username123

My husband spent a long time looking for a Phd. He could only afford a funded one, but each time he investigated the funding was pulled. He also investigated some taught ones, but there were hundreds of applicants for just a few positions. He gave up.

I would say that if you have a great idea that you are really passionate about, that if you have good employability anyway to fall back on, and you have money to maintain you - do it. Education is always good. But you will be lucky to get funding.

However on a positive note, Ive a friend whose submission date is a few months away and he loved his. It was in a creative area though which can make a huge difference.

Cat Melodeon

Is your job in any way related to your study plans? Some unis allow you to work and do a PhD at the same time. Maybe your employer would facilitate this? It might mean cutting your hours (and pay) but you would then have security of income while you study. Investigating further study myself, I've found that some potential supervisors are very open to flexible study arrangements.

dudara

My Ph.D. nearly broke me mentally, but it also an extremely rewarding experience. I went straight into my Ph.D. from my B.Sc. so I was relatively young. In contrast, you have more experience and age behind you as you make this decision.

The whole definition of a Ph.D. is to perform "novel" research. That's the primary goal. Make sure that you are really in it for the long-haul and that you have a clear goal for your research. Your research targets may change as you work, but you will need to keep the idea of novelty in order to prove your thesis' merit.

FYI - I don't work in my Ph.D. field anymore, but extra-curricular skills I learned in that period, plus all the hard knocks have been very beneficial.

howaya

- researching a proposal and writing-it up in some detail (a literature review meets your intended project) might be a good way to see for yourself whether you want to give it a go: 3-5,000 words or so.
It would also offer you a good platform from which to seek funding

-besides the academics, it's whether you want to devote the years to it at this stage in your life, and big personal considerations such as family and relationships are factors, along with the implications for your current career

good luck :-)

avalon68

Bottom line- do you need a phd to work in the area you want? If not, then don't do it. It is often a hindrance in seeking employment unless it is required.

dyl10

PM

username123

avalon68 wrote: »

Bottom line- do you need a phd to work in the area you want? If not, then don't do it. It is often a hindrance in seeking employment unless it is required.

This is curious, can you expand?

dyl10

I suspect he is referencing that having a PhD can over-qualify you for many jobs. If you decide to swap industry, employers may be reluctant to take you on as they may be afraid you will leave once something better comes, you are not open to an entry position, wage demands etc.

username123

dyl10 wrote: »

I suspect he is referencing that having a PhD can over-qualify you for many jobs. If you decide to swap industry, employers may be reluctant to take you on as they may be afraid you will leave once something better comes, you are not open to an entry position, wage demands etc.

Is the answer to that not tailored CVs?

avalon68

username123 wrote: »

Is the answer to that not tailored CVs?

No, you can't just leave the phd off your cv as its huge gap in employment, however, I have been advised to do so in the past by recruitment agencies. Yes to the above post - you will be seen as over qualified for any position that doesn't require a phd, especially in Ireland! The old begrudgery-that guy has a phd.....must think he's better than everyone....blah blah attitude. Really though, unless your future job requires it, and very few outside the ivory tower will, then you will probably not benefit financially from it, and it will end up. Setting you back while you do it. In the Irish market, a masters seems more useful! Though it's not just Ireland, I'm stateside now, and it's very difficult for people with a phd to get industry positions which only require masters. At a recent recruitment fair a colleague asked why at a q and a session, and honestly the answer surprised me- she turned to him and said - why on earth would I hire someone that's more qualified than me to work for me! Never going to happen! It's food for thought. Beware, if you are planning working in academia, it's a terrible market for jobs and would almost certainly involve having to emigrate, at least for a few years.

username123

avalon68 wrote: »

No, you can't just leave the phd off your cv as its huge gap in employment, however, I have been advised to do so in the past by recruitment agencies. Yes to the above post - you will be seen as over qualified for any position that doesn't require a phd, especially in Ireland! The old begrudgery-that guy has a phd.....must think he's better than everyone....blah blah attitude. Really though, unless your future job requires it, and very few outside the ivory tower will, then you will probably not benefit financially from it, and it will end up. Setting you back while you do it. In the Irish market, a masters seems more useful! Though it's not just Ireland, I'm stateside now, and it's very difficult for people with a phd to get industry positions which only require masters. At a recent recruitment fair a colleague asked why at a q and a session, and honestly the answer surprised me- she turned to him and said - why on earth would I hire someone that's more qualified than me to work for me! Never going to happen! It's food for thought. Beware, if you are planning working in academia, it's a terrible market for jobs and would almost certainly involve having to emigrate, at least for a few years.

You know, for some reason I never even thought of the gap in employment issue because most people I know with PhDs did them part time while working. I take your point.

I also take your point at the end of the post about being more qualified than the guy hiring you - never thought of that either.

Thank you for an interesting and informative post.

djpbarry

naomi23 wrote: »

Also am I completely mad to leave my paid job to do a PhD and hope to join academia at the age of 27?

That depends - do you really, really want to be an academic researcher? Or are you happy enough doing what you do at present?

naomi23

djpbarry wrote: »

That depends - do you really, really want to be an academic researcher? Or are you happy enough doing what you do at present?

I'm not happy doing what I am doing at present

The reason I would do the PhD is to go in to the academic world so I'm not too worried about has been mentioned of the unemployability due to over-qualified for many jobs.

I also don't mind travelling, it's one of the main reasons I want to do a PhD but am I fearful of the situation out there to get a funded PhD.

I don't think my work would sponsor me unfortunately as it wouldn't be a supportive piece of work which would benefit them to have.

Also I like the idea of lecturing at college level. Is it a strict line between an academic researcher and an academic lecturer or can I be both?

Thanks for all the great advice though, I feel like I'm getting closer to an answer one way or another :rolleyes:

naomi23

howaya wrote: »

- researching a proposal and writing-it up in some detail (a literature review meets your intended project) might be a good way to see for yourself whether you want to give it a go: 3-5,000 words or so.
It would also offer you a good platform from which to seek funding

-besides the academics, it's whether you want to devote the years to it at this stage in your life, and big personal considerations such as family and relationships are factors, along with the implications for your current career

good luck :-)

Hey Howaya!!

I totally agree that the proposal will get me thinking along the lines of where to seek funding and I also agree with your point of devoting my life to academia right now. I also fear that to go off and write a critical piece of the work I currently do will black list me in the future and completely cut me off from the industry altogether

avalon68

naomi23 wrote: »

Also I like the idea of lecturing at college level. Is it a strict line between an academic researcher and an academic lecturer or can I be both?

Most are required to do both, however, a very tiny fraction of PhDs get a lecturing position. Do a job search for whatever academic position you think you would have in 10 yrs time.....jobs.ac.uk, naturejobs etc., and see how many positions come up. Its something I wish I had done before getting my PhD - academia is one of the biggest pyramid schemes in existence

naomi23

avalon68 wrote: »

Most are required to do both, however, a very tiny fraction of PhDs get a lecturing position. Do a job search for whatever academic position you think you would have in 10 yrs time.....jobs.ac.uk, naturejobs etc., and see how many positions come up. Its something I wish I had done before getting my PhD - academia is one of the biggest pyramid schemes in existence

Good advice avalon, I looked up lecturing jobs in human geography and there seems to be a couple going in the UK on those websites you mentioned. I think I would enjoy doing both but would like to eventually get in to the lecturing side of it. May I ask what field you are in? Is it something similar to mine in the social sciences/geography?

djpbarry

naomi23 wrote: »

Good advice avalon, I looked up lecturing jobs in human geography and there seems to be a couple going in the UK on those websites you mentioned. I think I would enjoy doing both but would like to eventually get in to the lecturing side of it. May I ask what field you are in? Is it something similar to mine in the social sciences/geography?

I imagine you're likely to find the competition for lecturing roles in an area like geography to be very, very stiff, for the simple reason that there is little demand for geography PhDs in the private sector (I stand to be corrected on that). If you want to pursue a research career in such a field, then I would imagine that opportunities for doing so outside academia are rather limited.

naomi23

QUOTE=djpbarry;80534839]I imagine you're likely to find the competition for lecturing roles in an area like geography to be very, very stiff, for the simple reason that there is little demand for geography PhDs in the private sector (I stand to be corrected on that). If you want to pursue a research career in such a field, then I would imagine that opportunities for doing so outside academia are rather limited.[/QUOTE]

I found there to be a lot of jobs on offer for geography lecturers but I'm sure you're right on the competitveness for those positions. I also believe that while I am employable now, a PhD in Geography is not going to make me any more successful in industry. However, I don't want to do the PhD to be more employable, I want to do it to join academia. I'm guessing I'll just have to work my backside off and hope for the best. [

avalon68

naomi23 wrote: »

Good advice avalon, I looked up lecturing jobs in human geography and there seems to be a couple going in the UK on those websites you mentioned. I think I would enjoy doing both but would like to eventually get in to the lecturing side of it. May I ask what field you are in? Is it something similar to mine in the social sciences/geography?

I'm in the biological sciences, all short term contracts, very unlikely to get a lecturing position at the end of it. While I do enjoy what I do, I will be trying to switch into something more secure. There are far too many PhDs out there, and far too few jobs for them.

djpbarry

naomi23 wrote: »

...I don't want to do the PhD to be more employable, I want to do it to join academia.

If you really want to get into academic research, then go for it.

avalon68 wrote: »

There are far too many PhDs out there...

This kind of statement doesn't sit comfortably with me. Every single PhD is different and it's not like we're running out of scientific problems for PhD students to study!

Yes, it's impossible for academia to soak up all PhD graduates if that's what you mean, but that's going to be the case anywhere a hierarchy exists - the pyramid narrows as you move upward. But, I think we're a long, long way from there being too many researchers in the world.

naomi23

Do you need a PhD to go in to lecturing as well? I think that's where I'd like to end up eventually? And is it possible to do both research and lecturing or does it have to be one or the other?

avalon68

djpbarry wrote: »

If you really want to get into academic research, then go for it.
This kind of statement doesn't sit comfortably with me. Every single PhD is different and it's not like we're running out of scientific problems for PhD students to study!

Yes, it's impossible for academia to soak up all PhD graduates if that's what you mean, but that's going to be the case anywhere a hierarchy exists - the pyramid narrows as you move upward. But, I think we're a long, long way from there being too many researchers in the world.

But the problem that exists is that there are far too many PhD students, and not enough places for them to progress their careers afterwards. The new PD1 PD2 rating for postdocs in Ireland goes a way towards illustrating this. Its simply a source of cheap transient labour. A lot of postdocs for example have no health benefits, crappy pay, no mat leave, no pension etc. depending on where in the world you find yourself. A huge number of PhD grads end up working in totally unrelated fields, which they probably did not need a phd to enter - so effectively they have lost years of earning time/pension accruing time etc. I think its only fair the OP should understand the chances of getting an academic lecturing position are minimal before leaving her current career to undertake a phd.

avalon68

naomi23 wrote: »

Do you need a PhD to go in to lecturing as well? I think that's where I'd like to end up eventually? And is it possible to do both research and lecturing or does it have to be one or the other?

A PhD would almost certainly be required by the time you would be qualified to lecture (right now in the ITs you dont always need one, universities usually require one). You would be competing against people with a PhD for most positions advertised. In most universities you will be required to teach and perform research/bring in external funding. Im not sure about the situation in ITs.

TheBody

naomi23 wrote: »

Do you need a PhD to go in to lecturing as well? I think that's where I'd like to end up eventually? And is it possible to do both research and lecturing or does it have to be one or the other?

Most universities require you to have a phd to lecture but sometimes you can get a lecturing position with a masters and some relevant work experience. I really depends on the position.

If you get a job in a university, you will have plenty of time for research. If you get a job in an IT you will have much less time for research as you will prob have more lectures to give.

djpbarry

avalon68 wrote: »

I think its only fair the OP should understand the chances of getting an academic lecturing position are minimal before leaving her current career to undertake a phd.

Absolutely - not disagreeing with that at all. In fact I said as much myself.

However, I think it's very important to stress that not all PhD's are equal. For example, there is a serious lack of researchers in the area I work in - a PhD student in this field would be virtually guaranteed a career in academic research for life, if that's what they wanted. Plenty of private sector opportunities too.

Cannibal Ox

If you're happy to travel you should look for funding outside of Ireland.

Jobs.ac.uk is a good place to keep an eye on for funded phds in the UK, it's also worth scoping out some departments and going directly to supervisors with your proposal and seeing what they know about funding.

For the continent (though I'm not too sure about geography) universities in the Netherlands, Scandinavia, Italy and Germany offer funding for phds in English. The EU funding schemes are worth looking at too, see http://ec.europa.eu/euraxess/.

Then there's always the US and Canada, although that probably requires a bit more preparation (although there's lots of useful threads around this forum about applying to US and Canadian universities).

Personally, I think it's preferable to do a PhD outside of Ireland. It creates a few risks, but I think the payoff is that it opens you up to the 'international' market, different ways of thinking and different ways of organising and working in universities.

Whatever you go for, you need to do a bit of research to find out what opportunities exist in your area (find the best departments in your interest area and don't limit yourself to English speaking countries), find out what their staff are like, what they're interested in, what kind of funding they offer, where they offer it and when they offer it.

naomi23

djpbarry wrote: »

Absolutely - not disagreeing with that at all. In fact I said as much myself.

However, I think it's very important to stress that not all PhD's are equal. For example, there is a serious lack of researchers in the area I work in - a PhD student in this field would be virtually guaranteed a career in academic research for life, if that's what they wanted. Plenty of private sector opportunities too.

So, are we saying that for me doing a PhD in Social Geography for the next four years, my chances of getting a lecturing/research position anywhere including Ireland is fairly minimal and I'm leaving a position with benefits such as maternity leave, holiday leave and health insurance for short term contracts in research with no guarantee of future permanant position because if so, that's a fairly dismal outlook for me

djpbarry

naomi23 wrote: »

So, are we saying that for me doing a PhD in Social Geography for the next four years, my chances of getting a lecturing/research position anywhere including Ireland is fairly minimal and I'm leaving a position with benefits such as maternity leave, holiday leave and health insurance for short term contracts in research with no guarantee of future permanant position because if so, that's a fairly dismal outlook for me

I wouldn't say it's quite that grim. The chances of you landing a permanent position in a country as small as Ireland are pretty slim, yes. However, if you're prepared to relocate (which anyone considering a career in research/academia really should be) then prospects shouldn't be quite so bleak.

avalon68

The situation is less bleak abroad, but I wouldnt go as far as to say its good. Im stateside at the moment, and while there are more opportunities for employment here, there are few for career progression. eg, one of the major career milestones is bringing in your own funding, and its almost necessary to gain a tenure track position - however - the vast majority of funding sources are not available to non citizens/non-greencard holders. Its probably a little easier in Europe, and may also depend on your field. We were having a lunch time whine about our career decisions a couple of weeks ago - and of the 8-9 of us sitting at the table, every single person bar one said if they had to do it over again, they would not do a PhD.....me included. All of us had 5-6 yrs PhD, and from 3-8 years postdoc experience. Its just an unsettled life - hard to buy property as you dont know where you will be in a few years - i moved to the states after my Phd, and am in the process of moving to the uk right now. So basically Im highly educated, in my thirties, have no assets to my name, very little savings, no pension - I feel like I'm a perpetual student !