Is Wing Tsun an effective Martial Art?

FeckArseInc

I thought about doing Wing Tsun, but I have mixed ideas.

On the one hand, it specialises specifically on self-defense for street scenarios.

On the other hand, I've heard that it's wrapped too much on traditional moves which are no longer effective.

Craptacular

A punch to the face is a traditional move but it's still pretty effective.

Why not try a session and see what you think? These guys have clubs in Dublin City Centre, Blanchardstown, Maynooth, Wexford & Sligo so there may be one near you. http://www.wingtsun.ie

OLDMAN1

FeckArseInc wrote: »

I thought about doing Wing Tsun, but I have mixed ideas.

On the one hand, it specialises specifically on self-defense for street scenarios.

On the other hand, I've heard that it's wrapped too much on traditional moves which are no longer effective.

Yes if it is taught properly, it is also not a self-defense system , although it is marketed as one by a lot of people...

Peetrik

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

Yes if it is taught properly

I'd go along with that, I only gave it 6 months before moving on as there was no live sparring... just speeded up choreography. Maybe just the place I was training but any videos I've seen with the style pressure tested against other styles or even against itself it turns into a messy brawl with neither side displaying much actual Wing Tsun, which to me speaks volumes.

It can be effective but there are better styles, or at least in my limited experience there are other styles that are trained more effectively.

Lassard

Hi Oldman 1,

You said that Wing Tsun " it is also not a self-defense system" ,would you care to expand on this. I always thought of WT as a very stripped-down, "get the job done" type art.

Niall Keane

Lassard wrote: »

Hi Oldman 1,

You said that Wing Tsun " it is also not a self-defense system" ,would you care to expand on this. I always thought of WT as a very stripped-down, "get the job done" type art.

Like other kung fu styles it is a "fighting" system.

Of course fighting can be used in self defence. But these days self defence seems to carry the tone of if A does this, you do that. Kung fu is somewhat more subtle than that. And often such systems tend to suggest poking eyes, groin shots etc., suggesting that power and ability is not so important an can be overcome, which Kung fu would not agree with, an old expression:
"One strength/ power defeats ten best techniques"

Also there is the concept of "defence", some suggest this means "only to defend" so disregarding aggressive tactics. This method of reaction only can be dangerous.
Of course as a TCC man, I would suggest that reaction may not be the secondary action, if the attack has been "enticed". But this carries past the current discussion.

Traditionally many kung fu systems talk about 3 timings...

After the fact, where you will be hit etc.
As a technique is applied where the outcome of your counter has a 50/50 chance of success
And "before it lands" , anticipating or enticing CERTAIN actions and to use the classic line:
"he starts first, but I arrive first!"

Most "self defence" systems I've seen demoed seem to be focused in the two low level timings.

Also most "self defence" systems seem opposed to sport fighting, traditionally "lei tai" (Sanshou) is used by kung fu schools to develop good timing, angle and range, useful attributes in fighting, on or off a platform!

bill buchanan

Peetrik wrote: »

I'd go along with that, I only gave it 6 months before moving on as there was no live sparring..

I did it overseas where there was live sparring and enjoyed it. But in Dublin there was no live sparring, outwith chi sau, so I gave it up and did kickboxing instead.

OLDMAN1

Lassard wrote: »

Hi Oldman 1,

You said that Wing Tsun " it is also not a self-defense system" ,would you care to expand on this. I always thought of WT as a very stripped-down, "get the job done" type art.

Niall Keane wrote: »

Like other kung fu styles it is a "fighting" system.

Of course fighting can be used in self defence. But these days self defence seems to carry the tone of if A does this, you do that. Kung fu is somewhat more subtle than that. And often such systems tend to suggest poking eyes, groin shots etc., suggesting that power and ability is not so important an can be overcome, which Kung fu would not agree with, an old expression:
"One strength/ power defeats ten best techniques"

Also there is the concept of "defence", some suggest this means "only to defend" so disregarding aggressive tactics. This method of reaction only can be dangerous.
Of course as a TCC man, I would suggest that reaction may not be the secondary action, if the attack has been "enticed". But this carries past the current discussion.

Traditionally many kung fu systems talk about 3 timings...

After the fact, where you will be hit etc.
As a technique is applied where the outcome of your counter has a 50/50 chance of success
And "before it lands" , anticipating or enticing CERTAIN actions and to use the classic line:
"he starts first, but I arrive first!"

Most "self defence" systems I've seen demoed seem to be focused in the two low level timings.

Also most "self defence" systems seem opposed to sport fighting, traditionally "lei tai" (Sanshou) is used by kung fu schools to develop good timing, angle and range, useful attributes in fighting, on or off a platform!

Basically what Niall said, he writes much nicer than i do...

Michael O Leary

FeckArseInc wrote: »

I thought about doing Wing Tsun, but I have mixed ideas.

On the one hand, it specialises specifically on self-defense for street scenarios.

On the other hand, I've heard that it's wrapped too much on traditional moves which are no longer effective.

Hi,

I teach Wing Tsun in Blanchardstown and have been studying it since 1993.

When talking about traditional moves which are no longer effective it all depends on how you use the movements. There are many Wing Tsun/Chun clans or linages and we share most of the same movements. However there is a vast difference in how we apply the movements.

When talking about Wing Tsun moves, this is it in a nutshell. We move close to our opponent to limit their ability to punch and kick us. At the same time we launch signature Wing Tsun punches to our opponent which are ideally suited for close range. We also employ Wing Tsun footwork to give more power to our bodymass and therefore our punches.

When punching to our opponents head, the triceps and anterior deltoids are working under concentric tension. If they meet an obsticle such as our opponents hands, they will fold/bend under eccentric tension and when our arms are free and the eccentric tension is released, they spring towards the target again. If they fold one way, we can call this a Bong Sau or a Tan Sau if they fold another way.

Other Wing Chun/Ving Tsun families will actively create the shape of a Bong Sau with the biceps and anterior deltoids under concentric tension which means that the punch is secondary and we feel that this is risky and leaves them open to feints.

So I feel we have to be specific when talking about Wing Tsun, its principles and movements.

You are more than welcome to come down any Tuesday or Saturday for a free first class where along with all beginners you will work on some simple defences against some of the most common attacks you are likely to face and you will work on the idea of eccentric tension which is core to Wing Tsun.

Regards,

Michael
www.wingtsun.ie

Michael O Leary

Niall Keane wrote: »

Like other kung fu styles it is a "fighting" system.

Of course fighting can be used in self defence. But these days self defence seems to carry the tone of if A does this, you do that. Kung fu is somewhat more subtle than that. And often such systems tend to suggest poking eyes, groin shots etc., suggesting that power and ability is not so important an can be overcome, which Kung fu would not agree with, an old expression:
"One strength/ power defeats ten best techniques"

Also there is the concept of "defence", some suggest this means "only to defend" so disregarding aggressive tactics. This method of reaction only can be dangerous.
Also most "self defence" systems seem opposed to sport fighting, traditionally "lei tai" (Sanshou) is used by kung fu schools to develop good timing, angle and range, useful attributes in fighting, on or off a platform!

Hi,

Just wanted to follow up on one or two points.

Wing Tsun/Wing Chun/Ving Tsun is of course a fighting system with inter-related principles, mottos and bio-mechanical drills. We do teach techniques but only as examples to show how the principles work.

When we say that Wing Tsun is a self-defence orientated martial art, it does not mean that we teach X response for Y attack or that we focus on defending, it just means that we don't enter competitions. All my students spar and it begins on night one. However the sparring or pressure testing is based upon what would happen outside the ring rather than what happens inside it.

As an aside, I did enter a full contact competition years ago fighting under Sanshou rules. Niall's coach Paul Mitchell was the referee and I was fighting one of Dave Joyce's Thai-Boxers. I won my fight decisively but had no further interest in competing.

Regards,

Michael
www.wingtsun.ie

OLDMAN1

Michael O Leary wrote: »

Hi,

All my students spar and it begins on night one.
www.wingtsun.ie

That's great to hear, are you still part of the EWTO? its not long ago that the EWTO stated on there website that they did not believe in sparing! i was wondering why there were selling mma gloves on there website..i realise that your group is not really into competitions but there's a Wing Chun competition in China at the end of next year run by Yip Chun if your intrested ...

Tony

Michael O Leary

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

That's great to hear, are you still part of the EWTO? its not long ago that the EWTO stated on there website that they did not believe in sparing! i was wondering why there were selling mma gloves on there website..i realise that your group is not really into competitions but there's a Wing Chun competition in China at the end of next year run by Yip Chun if your intrested ...

Tony

Hi Tony,

The EWTO doesn't have a problem with sparring. The problem with the word "sparring" is that different people mean different things by it. The EWTO does not agree with the type of sparring where two people attack and defend sequentally in a tit for tat manner as it has little to do with self-defence and Wing Tsun in general.

Wing Tsun is a system and one definition of a system that I like is that it is "an inter-related set of elements viewed as a whole and designed to achieve a set purpose". Wing Tsun's elements are principles, forms, applications, chi-sau, etc. The key thing for these elements to make a system is that they have to be inter-related. Therefore any sparring or pressure testing should have a relationship to the other elements.

The problem with some Wing Tsun/Chun people is that once they start "sparring", all the other elements go out the window. They start bobbing, feinting like a boxer or go hell for leather, trying to hit each other with cheap shots that take no skill but lots of inappropriate strength.

Regards,

Michael
www.wingtsun-blanchardstown.ie

bill buchanan

Michael O Leary wrote: »

Hi Tony,

The EWTO doesn't have a problem with sparring. The problem with the word "sparring" is that different people mean different things by it. The EWTO does not agree with the type of sparring where two people attack and defend sequentally in a tit for tat manner as it has little to do with self-defence and Wing Tsun in general.

Wing Tsun is a system and one definition of a system that I like is that it is "an inter-related set of elements viewed as a whole and designed to achieve a set purpose". Wing Tsun's elements are principles, forms, applications, chi-sau, etc. The key thing for these elements to make a system is that they have to be inter-related. Therefore any sparring or pressure testing should have a relationship to the other elements.

The problem with some Wing Tsun/Chun people is that once they start "sparring", all the other elements go out the window. They start bobbing, feinting like a boxer or go hell for leather, trying to hit each other with cheap shots that take no skill but lots of inappropriate strength.

Regards,

Michael
www.wingtsun-blanchardstown.ie

Hi Michael,

What is sparring like in your club? Do the students get in the ring/on the mat and fight?

DannyBoy92

i trained wing tsun for 2 years , and thought it was great , till i went to a mma school and learned it wasnt really worth a lot ,

this is because the martial art training in wing tsun lacks aliveness

look up a vid on youtube called matt thornton aliveness ......if you understand what he says in the video it should be easy for you to make up your mind ,

my advice if u want to learn to fight ...take up boxing or mma or bjj ....something were u will get to put your technique under pressure

Civilian Personal Protection

My TKD teacher, who was also my Muay Thai teacher, was also a Shaolin Kung Fu teacher. He refused to teach me Shaolin in 1996 as he said "it is too soft". I know nothing bout it. Only repeating what he said.

A freind of mine is a Wing Chun teacher in the lineage of Ip Man/IP Chun. I wont speak for him directly, but him and I have had lots of chat's about street self defense. He has indicated to me that it isn't easy adapting it for the street. A view i found refreshing, and responsible. He does also learn Muay Thai. I've advised him on lots of occasions that with what he already knows maybe all that is lacking is for him to create the psychological and physiological dramas that are in street combat. Including leading up to the actual physical. not only focusing on the physical = A last stage of street conflict.

Again, i'm not trained in WT, so only got anecdotal view.

warmest wishes

Wayne

OLDMAN1

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

A freind of mine is a Wing Chun teacher in the lineage of Ip Man/IP Chun. I wont speak for him directly, but him and I have had lots of chat's about street self defense. He has indicated to me that it isn't easy adapting it for the street.
Wayne

He's wrong, it's as good as anything else that people are SELLING...

Michael O Leary

bill buchanan wrote: »

Hi Michael,

What is sparring like in your club? Do the students get in the ring/on the mat and fight?

Hi Bill,

We start by pressure testing one technique, for example against a left lead punch. We drill the technique and increase the pressure until the opponent is pretty much going 100% with the attack and the role of the Wing Tsun student is to counter with minimum percieved effort. Then we do the same with another technique, for example a right rear punch and drill until about 100% intensity. Then the opponent will launch either punch and the Wing Tsun student has to chose between two variables and we start this on day one. This usually causes the new student to tense up so we lower the intensity to a manageable level and then increase it as they become more proficient. Then we add other attacks into the mix gradually. The Wing Tsun student holds back once contact is made however in order to practise their striking power, they will also hit pads.

Then they also pressure test Wing Tsun against Wing Tsun and this gives them the opportunity to sharpen their chi-sau reflexes so that it easier when with a non-Wing Tsun opponent. We then divide the two partners into Wing Tsun and non-Wing Tsun roles and this time when the Wing Tsun student counters, rather than playing dead the non-Wing Tsun opponent will continue to launch attacks which the Wing Tsun student must learn how to counter at a much closer range.

This is a brief overview of how we pressure test and I have noticed a big difference between those Wing Tsun students who do this exercise and Wing Tsun/Chun students from other schools/organisations who don't do it.

Regards,

Michael
www.wingtsun-blanchardstown.ie

Civilian Personal Protection

OLDMAN1 wrote: »

He's wrong, it's as good as anything else that people are SELLING...

He's 'wrong'? I'm pretty certain his opinion is right, to him and his experience. I dunno maybe he's actually tried to use it in a street brawl or something, and got his C*** knocked in.

Anyhow, what is the litmus test for wing chun being effective on the streets in Ireland over the last decade?

And in that quantitative testing, what conditions/variables are present for the 1000's that exist in street combat? Surely people are not that foolish, in that they believe one little bitch-slapping in a housing estate constitutes 'street-effective'.

warmest wishes

Wayne

crosstrainer1

Ive trained with Thomas Lamount in lisburn who is in my opion the best wing tsun instructor in ireland , and as hes an ex world cage fighting champion and has used wing chun in the enviroment hes the man to ask

Peetrik

This Thomas Lamount?

Doesn't use any Wing Chun I can see... unless this was before he took it up?

Civilian Personal Protection

I had some private tuition from Tom back in 2000, when he was UK number 1 full contact fighter. Met him again some years later. Chum sut ain't wing tsun. It's Chum sut. But i get you're point.

So, cos Tom has a background in WT and then created his own style - chum sut, and Tom was a Vale Tudo world champ in Brazil, that somehow implies WT is applicable to the street?

How does that work?

Peetrik, that's Tom in the video yeah. and he was teaching chum sut at that time. Cos i trained with him in Chum Sut few years before that.


CS has a foundation of WT, but also uses fillipino and ground stuff from other systems, btw crosstrainer1.

To be proven in any combat arena the combat must take part in THAT arena. ALL the time. Peolple assume that because Tom can handle himself, and has a background in WT then he must:

1. Use it in the street
2. Not have any other tools.

People forget that all, in fact, few, are at Tom's level. If tom is able to use any martial art for the street, it may be because he has also had the experience of the street. And i dont mean walking up it to go to the shop. It is quite acceptable, and i can quote many serious dan grade martial artists, that the more they are exposed to real world violence, the more they see what would work and what wouldn't. To say or imply one traditional system is street-effective is imo, a fallacy. Bit's may or may not work.

Peetrik pointed out something in that fight clip. And i havn't watched it proper, so i'm genuinely asking, what WT is being used, if any? In the safety of a fight with rules.

Actually, let me put it like this. Fighting based on rules, in safety, where folks taake their time over rounds, and get rested, etc, is not street violence. Hopefully that is agreeable. So.. how popular is WT in the safe, rule based fights? UFC, K1, Vale Tudo, etc? I ai9n't done the research on it, but if it isn't popular, or if it fails in rule based contests, then it is an indication of potential weaknesses. The more right throughout that WT fails to make it's mark, the more it might indicate systematic issues.

Before anyone get's their knickers in a twist, i ain't anti-Wt. I ain't anti anything. But when we are talking about peoples lives, as we are on the street, and Ireland, if not the world are watching the forums looking advise. It falls to us to be upfront and honest. About what is proven.

warmest wishes

Wayne

Peetrik

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

Actually, let me put it like this. Fighting based on rules, in safety, where folks taake their time over rounds, and get rested, etc, is not street violence. Hopefully that is agreeable.

If something works (causes damage) in a ring/cage against a fully resisting trained athlete then you can be pretty sure it will work on 'the street'. Personally I would be way more suspect of techniques that have only ever worked on drunk people or unfit people who have never trained a day in their life.
Dismissing martial arts that compete as being 'not street effective' because there are rules involved is on par with dismissing cars as a form of transport because some people race in cars on a track with rules in safety.
The whole original idea of competition was to find out whose techniques actually work.

Niall Keane

It is fairly well known that in Hong Kong many WT schools (and other kung fu schools) are recruiting grounds for Triads.
In fact the Triads sprang from martial art patriotic societies.
They do tend to like their hatchets and machetes, to deal out that "death by a thousand cuts"!
I guess some WT lads must be very well versed in "the streets"?


Fighting looks like fighting always! Styles simply are strategic and tactical peculiarities and training regimes that go along with them. Some training methods may look strange, and strangely some people expect a direct translation of skill training methods into live combat.

One would expect a western boxer to have good footwork in an encounter, but hardly to bring along his skipping rope and hop up and down on the one spot to "make it" boxing!

Niall Keane

"Dismissing martial arts that compete as being 'not street effective' because there are rules involved is on par with dismissing cars as a form of transport because some people race in cars on a track with rules in safety."

Exactly! And I'd expect a sports rally driver would make a pretty good "get away" driver if so inclined!

Civilian Personal Protection

Peetrik wrote: »

If something works (causes damage) in a ring/cage against a fully resisting trained athlete then you can be pretty sure it will work on 'the street'.

Causes what kind of damage? The street ain't a safe place where the fight is paced out over rounds. The victim hasn't got the luxury of mentally preparing themselves for a fight. Hasn't got the luxury of being against one opponent of similar weight, and same sex. Gimme a break.. Lol!

This is about being set upon from behind at the kebab shop. Getting a bottle in the face or neck. biting like a rabid dog on someones throat. ending the confrontation within seconds.

i'll give another example of how street personal protection is vastly different from the ring. Renzo Gracie. Look at his recent exploits he talked bout on twitter. Those martial artists who know nothing about street self defence thought what eh done was great. The people who actually know about street self defence all agree he is a prat. There is a huge discrepancy.

Of course, all the talk here is about fighting. Fighting is merely one of the stages of street combat. One of the last stages.

Peetrik wrote: »

Dismissing martial arts that compete as being 'not street effective' because there are rules involved is on par with dismissing cars as a form of transport because some people race in cars on a track with rules in safety.
The whole original idea of competition was to find out whose techniques actually work.

Analogies sound lovely but are useless when it is facts that are required.

Did i dismiss martial arts as not being effective? I missed that. Do i need to once again quote myself! I've said on this forum that all training is applicable, i said in this months edition of Irish Fighters the same thing. It has to be applied, as in trained in the right manner.

warmest wishes

Wayne

Niall Keane

Just because a school competes does not mean its all they do!

However it's hard once your eyes have been opened on the Lei tai, ring or cage to see people who don't compete any differently than this boxing coach does:

http://vimeo.com/m/42209600

It's not just "experiencing violence", though its a damn better way than running through a gauntlet of shouting shoving class mates or playibg with toy weapons, but it develops far more self awareness and peripheral and envirnomental awareness as where you're blind or move bad you get punished. Also you learn how to receive force, and to dish it out, the intensity of a fighters training means he's travelling 100 miles a day in his martial development for every mile the player is.

Yesterday on 2fm there was some joker saying how a 24 hour course in krav maga would bring someone up to navy seal standard. And that fittness didn't matter.
I guess this type of stuff harms any credibility "street self defence systems" could have. Avoidance of trouble is of course best but really that kind of awareness / posturing / common sense is like learning the safe cross code. Like if I couldn't swim and wanted to learn and most of the course was based around being careful near water, and included some safe paddling I'd not be impressed!

Also I've noticed over the years that although such systems are great at pointing out te flaws of other styles and how "unrealistic" they are they have never posted up a demo of how they train for adrenal stress in a realistic manner. I've seen plenty of shouting and flailing and kicks at te balls aimed to miss - supposed to stop a determined attacker, but no drills with explanations of te training aim with evidence based results.

I guess this lack of transparency bothers me, I know they got to "sell" something, but when you look at styles that also compete as part of their syllabus you can find their training drills, their fight footage, it's all out in the open, because they know that the only secret is practice, and most people are too lazy!

Peetrik

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

The street ain't a safe place where the fight is paced out over rounds.

People who train effectively have vastly better cardio than people who don't train, to even make this point shows a large gap in your knowledge.

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

The victim hasn't got the luxury of mentally preparing themselves for a fight.

The whole point of training full contact and regular heavy sparring is to mentally prepare yourself not go to pieces after being hit hard.

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

Hasn't got the luxury of being against one opponent of similar weight, and same sex. Gimme a break.. Lol!

So what? The whole point of training technique is to close the advantage gap over someone who is bigger/stronger than you.
Being matched by weight just ensures that your techniques aren't only working because you are bigger. They work because they are effective.

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

Getting a bottle in the face or neck. biting like a rabid dog on someones throat. ending the confrontation within seconds.

Ah get real, no way you are actually trying to glass each other full contact each training session. If you don't train it each week then you have no idea if it will work in a fight.
At best you practise slow motion, stopping just before the biting or whatever with both parties 'agreeing to these rules of no one actually getting bitten or stabbed so that its safe. How is that any different from the ring rules you disparage?

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

Analogies sound lovely but are useless when it is facts that are required.

What facts? Facts about what?

Doug Cartel

Niall Keane wrote: »

Yesterday on 2fm there was some joker saying how a 24 hour course in krav maga would bring someone up to navy seal standard.

Ah, but who said Navy Seal standard is a high standard?

Peetrik

Niall Keane wrote: »

Also I've noticed over the years that although such systems are great at pointing out te flaws of other styles and how "unrealistic" they are they have never posted up a demo of how they train for adrenal stress in a realistic manner.

Open to being corrected but I think this might be Civilian Personal Protections demo

RainMaker

Peetrik wrote: »

Open to being corrected but I think this might be Civilian Personal Protections demo

Looks quite Krav Maga-ish...

Damo W

Niall Keane wrote: »

Yesterday on 2fm there was some joker saying how a 24 hour course in krav maga would bring someone up to navy seal standard. And that fittness didn't matter.

'Colm Hayes' show on 2FM and while it was only on the the background, I believe they ran some sort of competition for a place on the course. I think you had to ring in and tell why you needed it.
Good publicity...

Civilian Personal Protection

Peetrik wrote: »

People who train effectively have vastly better cardio than people who don't train, to even make this point shows a large gap in your knowledge.

what kind of cardio ya talking bout? a street fight brings oyxgen depletion within seconds. aerobic cardio is not anaerobic. Perhaps this shows a gap in your street combat knowledge.

And someone stabbing the **** out of ya, or him and his mates kicking your crap in doesn't give one **** bout your cardio.

you assume street attacks are all paced, with rest, and are evenly matched.

Peetrik wrote: »

The whole point of training full contact and regular heavy sparring is to mentally prepare yourself not go to pieces after being hit hard.

sparring mentally prepares one for sport-based, rule based fighting. for the street it's not sparring that is wanted, but full contact no rules.

something of note, people training in martial arts have been shown to hit up to 10 times harder than people who havn't. i'm all for facts.

Peetrik wrote: »

So what? The whole point of training technique is to close the advantage gap over someone who is bigger/stronger than you.
Being matched by weight just ensures that your techniques aren't only working because you are bigger. They work because they are effective.

your sparring gonna deal with a heroin addict who is stabbing you in close with a syringe, who will kill you for your cash? unless that something similar is trained, it is daft to assume. You ever sparred where your life was in danger? Actually, you ever really, truely, had your life in danger and used any of your skills?

Peetrik wrote: »

Ah get real, no way you are actually trying to glass each other full contact each training session. If you don't train it each week then you have no idea if it will work in a fight.

One can incorporate training in a scenario based approach.

Peetrik wrote: »

At best you practise slow motion, stopping just before the biting or whatever with both parties 'agreeing to these rules of no one actually getting bitten or stabbed so that its safe. How is that any different from the ring rules you disparage?

nothing wrong with ring rules. unless we are talking a different language ring rules ain't street.

Peetrik wrote: »

Because in training for sport you don't experience that getting bit or stabbed in any way.

In prison i had a guy lock onto my ear with his teeth. Every time i went to do something he would clamp harder and tell me if i kept messing bout he would take the ear off. It is quite a scary thing. There is psychological elements to street fighting that are opposite to the way one trains 5 times a week under rules.

Peetrik wrote: »

What facts? Facts about what?

Facts about whether WT is applicable in it's traditional form in modern day irish street combat.

that demo, needs to be looked in context. we were pressure testing some techniques using a real 9 inch carving knife, with 80% speed/power. there's only one sure way to discredit my testing with carving knives....

I ain't krav. nothing against it though.. the person who made that advert training to navy seal standard is a ****head. Marketing BS gone mad. With that kind of crap peoples live may be in danger.

i teach combatives, western combatives, via my criminal knowledge.



warmest wishes

Wayne

Doug Cartel

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

that demo, needs to be looked in context. we were pressure testing some techniques using a real 9 inch carving knife, with 80% speed/power. there's only one sure way to discredit my testing with carving knives....

Probably not a good idea to play with knives like that. Have you any real training?

Peetrik

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

what kind of cardio ya talking bout? a street fight brings oyxgen depletion within seconds. aerobic cardio is not anaerobic. Perhaps this shows a gap in your street combat knowledge.

I'm well aware of the difference between aerobic and anaerobic, a competitive fighter will have both, aerobic from longer runs to drop weight and building the gas tank and then anaerobic from explosive padwork, sprints etc.

The oxygen depletion in seconds comes from...

1) a lack of fitness
2) inexperience (inexperienced fighters tend to tense up and forget to breath, this lessens the more experienced a fighter gets)
3) adrenaline dumped into the blood stream (again the lessens with experience)

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

sparring mentally prepares one for sport-based, rule based fighting. for the street it's not sparring that is wanted, but full contact no rules.

And you do full contact no rules sparring then with face bites etc? You're losing credibility.

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

You ever sparred where your life was in danger? Actually, you ever really, truely, had your life in danger and used any of your skills?

Nope, never.... although personally I'd consider having successfully avoided fights a better endorsement for 'street defense' than someone who is unable to avoid conflict


I'll address all the 'ring aint the streets'/killer junkie points all together as it'll save time.

I believe that a hardstyle competitive MA trained with aliveness is better for both the ring and the street than any combatitive/KM/self defense style despite the fact that there are rules in the competition side of the MA.

We'll just have to agree to disagree if you have a different opinion.

SBG Ireland

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

I had some private tuition from Tom back in 2000, when he was UK number 1 full contact fighter. Met him again some years later. Chum sut ain't wing tsun. It's Chum sut. But i get you're point.

So, cos Tom has a background in WT and then created his own style - chum sut, and Tom was a Vale Tudo world champ in Brazil, that somehow implies WT is applicable to the street?

How does that work?

Peetrik, that's Tom in the video yeah. and he was teaching chum sut at that time. Cos i trained with him in Chum Sut few years before that.


CS has a foundation of WT, but also uses fillipino and ground stuff from other systems, btw crosstrainer1.

To be proven in any combat arena the combat must take part in THAT arena. ALL the time. Peolple assume that because Tom can handle himself, and has a background in WT then he must:

1. Use it in the street
2. Not have any other tools.

People forget that all, in fact, few, are at Tom's level. If tom is able to use any martial art for the street, it may be because he has also had the experience of the street. And i dont mean walking up it to go to the shop. It is quite acceptable, and i can quote many serious dan grade martial artists, that the more they are exposed to real worldhe more they see what would work and

warmest wishes

Wayne

i used to give tom weekly privates in bjj. pretty cool he won that fight with a technique that's part of our beginner program
tom is an awesome guy and built like a superhero haha

Dyr

Peetrik wrote: »

Open to being corrected but I think this might be Civilian Personal Protections demo

I'm going to make to observations about the benefits of sparring here. When you spar with knives and the other guy is genuinely putting the thrusts in:

1) you'll find that blocking arms with your fingers is not going to stop a good knife thrust, fingers bend backwards against force

2) only making contact above the elbow allows the arm to fold and you wind up with the knife heading towards your face/neck

sparring is not the arbitrator of effectiveness in the real world but it usually beats the alternatives imo

SBG Ireland

" When you spar with knives and the other guy is genuinely putting the thrusts in:
you're gonna have a bad time"

wonder will anyone get that

Peetrik

SBG Ireland wrote: »

wonder will anyone get that

I doubt anyones heard of south park SBG

SBG Ireland

where's the knife demo video that's been referred too?

Peetrik

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB_9TyhVmvM&feature=plcp

Someone I've never spoken to sent me it in a PM out of the blue... that parts not relevant but I thought it would make me appear more mysterious and interesting

crosstrainer1

what ive seen over the past years is the emergence of quick fix martial arts systems, and since time began different martial arts systems claim to have the answer. But its down to one thing Training. If you put the time in, if you follow a path that suits you, if you have a open mind about training and gather information from good quality instructors:)

Civilian Personal Protection

Peetrik wrote: »

And you do full contact no rules sparring then with face bites etc? You're losing credibility.

Even our beginner students go into situational scenarios approaching full contact. Cant' do full contact biting of course. I've been bit and know what it can do mentally as well as physically. It's that understanding i share.

i'm not needing credibility btw from you. No offence.

Peetrik wrote: »

Nope, never.... although personally I'd consider having successfully avoided fights a better endorsement for 'street defense' than someone who is unable to avoid conflict

now we're getting somewhere. One of my earliest posts on here i listed important points for the street. Awareness and avoidance was top.

Peetrik wrote: »

I'll address all the 'ring aint the streets'/killer junkie points all together as it'll save time.

I believe that a hardstyle competitive MA trained with aliveness is better for both the ring and the street than any combatitive/KM/self defense style despite the fact that there are rules in the competition side of the MA.

We'll just have to agree to disagree if you have a different opinion.

It depends on how much once trains. you've just touched upon how different street defence is to the ring by avoiding conflict. Whole seminars are taught on that subject in scenario specific ways. If one only trains for the ring they are giving themselves a valuable option for a last stage of street attacks. Is this to be to the exclusion of the more valuable foundation of awareness and avoidance.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with learning ring based sports. If it's tied into the full spectrum of street protection. This includes awareness and avoidance, the law, scenario based training, etc.

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Probably not a good idea to play with knives like that. Have you any real training?

Yes i have. Have you any real world experience using your 'real' training?

Peetrik wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jB_9TyhVmvM&feature=plcp

Someone I've never spoken to sent me it in a PM out of the blue... that parts not relevant but I thought it would make me appear more mysterious and interesting

Yeah, i thought that video was deleted. I no longer endorse some of it, as things have evolved from then. The day of the clip i hadn't slept in 36 hours. This was important. I was to test the effectiveness of one aspect of a knife attack and needed myself to be under pressure as much as possible. Hence the no sleep, and using a real carving knife. It was only around 70% speed and power though. Though going against a real carving knife even under such conditions as it not being real, is still unnerving. I was testing the mental capacity as much as anything. Thats what my system focuses on most.

It might be an idea to make a seperate topic about me now. This ain't WT. And i love the attention.

warmest wishes

Wayne

Doug Cartel

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

Yes i have. Have you any real world experience using your 'real' training?

What training have you received? Do you have any qualifications to teach knife work?

Civilian Personal Protection

Doug Cartel wrote: »

What training have you received?

Various. If you doubt my ability in street knife attacks there is only one way, one arena, that that can be shown. Attempting to take me to task on here in words is daft.

Doug Cartel wrote: »

Do you have any qualifications to teach knife work?

Qualifications? Lol. I've formal training. Ya are aware all formal training is of the safe, not real variety. so what has that got to do with anything, haha.

Real world experience in what one is teaching since the combat arena is real world - is what is important. My criminal record sadly shows i've been in many knife fights/serious crimes. It's not a badge of achievement, it just proves i have first hand experience subject i teach.

bill buchanan

Very few people actually have enough experience in street fighting to know what will work and what will won't. Even less have enough experience to know whta will work for an unfit person, a small person, a nervous person etc.

So there arguments tend to go round in circles. If people want to learn how to best defend themselves, then a full contact art is presumably the best. Do these arts work on the street? Who knows. BUt I guess learning how to get hit and trying to hit while someone else is trying to hit you is the best bet.

Maybe these conbatives courses etc do work. But I doubt they've ever been properly tested by anyone bar their aggressive founders/chief instructors, who probbaly would have been handy enough in a fight in the first place.

Civilian Personal Protection

bill buchanan wrote: »

Very few people actually have enough experience in street fighting to know what will work and what will won't. Even less have enough experience to know whta will work for an unfit person, a small person, a nervous person etc.

It's a valid point. One can only teach from experience.

bill buchanan wrote: »

Maybe these conbatives courses etc do work. But I doubt they've ever been properly tested by anyone bar their aggressive founders/chief instructors, who probbaly would have been handy enough in a fight in the first place.

Combatives has it's origin with people like Fairbairn, who taught Defendu to outfits like the shanghai police in the 1930's. Combatives then was took up by military forces worldwide. As combatives is simple, gross motor skill moves, and is concept based, it takes relatively little time to learn, whilst being effective under high stress (re: physiological fine/gross motor skills ability). The military are of course world leaders in real hand to hand combat.

Street violence is aggressive. If one is receiving violence one must be violent back. Violence takes many forms of course.

warmest wishes

Wayne

bill buchanan

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

It's a valid point. One can only teach from experience.




Combatives has it's origin with people like Fairbairn, who taught Defendu to outfits like the shanghai police in the 1930's. Combatives then was took up by military forces worldwide. As combatives is simple, gross motor skill moves, and is concept based, it takes relatively little time to learn, whilst being effective under high stress (re: physiological fine/gross motor skills ability). The military are of course world leaders in real hand to hand combat.

Street violence is aggressive. If one is receiving violence one must be violent back. Violence takes many forms of course.

warmest wishes

Wayne

I'm not sure if the military ARE world leaders in hand to hand combat, but I'm happy to be corrected. I believe that the military/police in Asian countries would spend significant amounts of time training in unarmed combat back in the day. I think that's different to what's currently on offer in a lot of combatives/self defence circles, where accountants and dentists train two nights a week max or do occasional weekend courses. The military and police in Shanghai in the 30s wouldn't exactly have been staffed by shrinking violets. I guess my concersn (if you could word it even that strongly) is that I'm not sure how tested these things are on nervous people, physically weak people, small people etc.

My counsin is in an army overseas. he learned some self defence in the forces and I imagine is more than able to handle himself. But I wonder if that's because he's huge and tough and fit, or because he's done some military self defence. I suspect the former, but I'm no expert.

maguffin

bill buchanan wrote: »

I'm not sure if the military ARE world leaders in hand to hand combat, but I'm happy to be corrected. I believe that the military/police in Asian countries would spend significant amounts of time training in unarmed combat back in the day. I think that's different to what's currently on offer in a lot of combatives/self defence circles, where accountants and dentists train two nights a week max or do occasional weekend courses. The military and police in Shanghai in the 30s wouldn't exactly have been staffed by shrinking violets. I guess my concersn (if you could word it even that strongly) is that I'm not sure how tested these things are on nervous people, physically weak people, small people etc.

My counsin is in an army overseas. he learned some self defence in the forces and I imagine is more than able to handle himself. But I wonder if that's because he's huge and tough and fit, or because he's done some military self defence. I suspect the former, but I'm no expert.

Here's an old clip of the North korean Army training...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KOS0_WEuYUU&feature=related

Peetrik

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

Qualifications? Lol. I've formal training. Ya are aware all formal training is of the safe, not real variety. so what has that got to do with anything, haha.

Exactly what formal training have you received under who?

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

My criminal record sadly shows i've been in many knife fights/serious crimes. It's not a badge of achievement, it just proves i have first hand experience subject i teach.

Plenty of drunk gobshítes get in fights at the weekend. This in no way qualifies them to teach martial arts or self defense.

Civilian Personal Protection

Peetrik wrote: »

Exactly what formal training have you received under who?

You're at risk of boring me to death. There's only one sure way to know what my reality is like.

Peetrik

Civilian Personal Protection wrote: »

You're at risk of boring me to death. There's only one sure way to know what my reality is like.

Trust me, I'm finding your BS equally as boring.