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Jews refuse to shop at ‘Hitler’ store in India
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,171 Mod ✭✭✭✭
Join Date:Posts: 59099
Good post from the ground thereAs someone from India, vast majority of Indians wouldn't know much about Hitler - I am not talking about uneducated people either. My own personal experience is that I had read something about the two World wars and Hitler - and the name was mentioned along with Stalin, Mussolini and Churchill. That's about it really. History classes in Indian schools teaches Indian history - various dynasties that ruled the land - we have some 2000 years of that to get thru before coming to the British Raj - and then textbooks usually focuses on colonization, freedom movements, various campaigns, and key figures and events. Only after moving to Europe, I read up so much about World Wars and key figures, and only then I realized how bitter the western world is about Hitler, and the memories of holocaust is still fresh etc. I had absolutely no idea otherwise. I remember buying and wearing t-shirt labeled 'furore'. In fact I think they still sell that brand of t-shirts there.
Oh yeah, Swastika is an ancient Hindu symbol of prosperity etc - and you will see it drawn fresh every morning in front of most houses even in the remotest of the Indian villages - especially in the South - and most of them have probably never heard of Europe - let alone Hitler.
Just my 2 paise worth.
Tnx. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,171 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59099
He smoked quite heavily when he was younger. Apparently to keep warm when he was down on his luck. Then he thought fcuk that and gave up overnight. From then on, like many the reformed smoker/whore he had a major bee in his bonnet with the practice. Brought in some of the first tobacco controls in history and funded research on the damaging effects of tobacco. He was fond of the odd liqueur and on occasion would even have a beer. The veggie bit was one of his doctors requests, but he regularly dismissed this request and was a fan of sausages. Bacon, the temptation, even the ruination of many a potential vegetarian.I'm not sure if he smoked or not but Hitler was neither a vegetarian nor a teetotaler. Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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He smoked quite heavily when he was younger. Apparently to keep warm when he was down on his luck. Then he thought fcuk that and gave up overnight. From then on, like many the reformed smoker/whore he had a major bee in his bonnet with the practice. Brought in some of the first tobacco controls in history and funded research on the damaging effects of tobacco. He was fond of the odd liqueur and on occasion would even have a beer. The veggie bit was one of his doctors requests, but he regularly dismissed this request and was a fan of sausages. Bacon, the temptation, even the ruination of many a potential vegetarian.
That's very interesting I never knew he was an ex smoker. No wonder he was such an arse about it.0 -
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Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,171 Mod ✭✭✭✭ Join Date:Posts: 59099
Certainly, but it is a pretty large factor. It's by far and away the most "popular" atrocity of relatively recent history. Celebrated - for the real need for a better word - in popular western culture. Hell it's damn near atrocity porn for some. Sadly.randylonghorn wrote: »I think there's some truth there, Wibbs, but it's only one factor.
Very bloody much so. I grew up with a childhood mate whose family had lost a whole generation in that period. Mercifully with enough familial distance that it wasn't so deeply raw as many in Europe after the dust settled and the truth came out. I grew up listening to the stories of two rellies who's been involved in liberating such camps, or observing same soon after. Like you said RLH it happened on our doorstep and that makes the atrocity that much keener and as was pointed out before the long history of shíte the Jewish people had lived under in Europe just added to it.
The name itself says everything "the final solution". The Nazis invented feck all. The previous "solutions" of identification, exclusion and ghettoisation et al were long before them and in their eyes only went so far. The final solution was annihilation. That's what they invented and followed through with. A 2000 year old arrow pointed at history with a Nazi telescopic sight added in.
It's why it still makes Europeans uncomfortable today(and I include America in that as a large cultural island of Europeanness) . But like I said it;s cos we're exposed to it all the more. We make movies and documentaries and books and all the rest, maybe as some mass cathartic expression? The sheer volume of popularity would suggest so. IT's why it hits so hard and makes us rate it as the worst. IMHO there's an element of race/culture snobbishness to it too. We deep down expect this guff from the "foreigner, the fuzzy wuzzy, the chink, the other" but this period wrankles because we were the "other" to ourselves and for the most part we can't quite explain it. Yet.
Add in the natural political stuff that stemmed from the formation of the state of Israel. They needed to keep it in the public mind of those who mattered and I don't fcuking blame them TBH, though I have serious misgivings over how they sought and seek to achieve what they need and deserve. History can repeat itself in ironic ways hand in hand with real shabbiness coming along for the ride.
Honestly? I think it's a more recent thing and influenced by outside cultural stuff. If you look back through history from the first texts of the Irish monks in cold damp blessed cells you see a feeling of wanting to be part of the greater, the wider world. Isolationists they were not. Neither were for the most part the diaspora that spread across the world(and not just America). We're similar to the Jews in that respect, both of us could be described as wandering, oft self hating, oft paranoid, oft at odds with who we are, and we have Irish mammies and Jewish mammies and shíte cuisine tooI agree with you that despite some black marks, the Irish are relatively free of this negative history; had the Jewish population in this country been bigger, I wonder if we would have been so? Have the attitudes you have no doubt seen reflected on this forum from some members over the last 10 years towards immigrants from Africa and even from Eastern Europe given you reason for confidence that the possibility for race hatred does not exist in the Irish psyche?
My childhood mate had an Irish Jewish mammy. He was boned from birth
I do reckon our xenophobia is relatively recent. IT's only a generation ago when Irish men and women went on "the missions" to far flung parts of this globe to try and make a difference and maybe escape what it is to be us still here. A couple of 100,000 went and are largely forgotten today, except in those countries they went to. And we went to places beyond where "irish american" politicians hoover for votes sporting the green. The South Americas are positively infected with MIcks. Che Guevara Lynch but one example(a close mate of mine is a distant rellie of his). As a culture we've traveled and were welcoming to the wayfarer, like Columba, Columbanus et al a thousand years before us. One Saxon writer was flabbergasted to note that the Irish welcomes all seekers of learning for no recompense. We could do well to plug into that cultural history today.
True and true.More as an interesting fact than anything else, one of the witnesses of the Nanjing Massacre was German businessman and Nazi Party member (as you pretty much had to be in Germany at that time if you had any aspirations to a successful business) John Rabe.
He was horrified at what he was witnessing, and appealed to Hitler to intervene with the Japanese government. Hitler refused. Rabe personally sheltered and hit many Chinese on his estate during that time, and documented the atrocity in his diaries, which became one of the few independent records of events which the Japanese High Command at the time made every effort to cover-up.
So Hitler's hands were not even clean in the matter of the Nanjing Massacre.
And not everyone who joined the Nazi party was a bastard.Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.
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Spot on.Add in the natural political stuff that stemmed from the formation of the state of Israel. They needed to keep it in the public mind of those who mattered and I don't fcuking blame them TBH, though I have serious misgivings over how they sought and seek to achieve what they need and deserve. History can repeat itself in ironic ways hand in hand with real shabbiness coming along for the ride.
Add in that many post-war leaders seem to have been influenced by both guilt and a desire to make reparation, and at the same time a fervent willingness to export both the 'problem' and the daily reminder of the horror, and, as too often happens in human history, from the ashes of one conflict are born the seeds of another.
I by no means disagree with your general point, but still I wonder.Honestly? I think it's a more recent thing and influenced by outside cultural stuff. If you look back through history from the first texts of the Irish monks in cold damp blessed cells you see a feeling of wanting to be part of the greater, the wider world. Isolationists they were not. Neither were for the most part the diaspora that spread across the world(and not just America). We're similar to the Jews in that respect, both of us could be described as wandering, oft self hating, oft paranoid, oft at odds with who we are, and we have Irish mammies and Jewish mammies and shíte cuisine too My childhood mate had an Irish Jewish mammy. He was boned from birth
I do reckon our xenophobia is relatively recent. IT's only a generation ago when Irish men and women went on "the missions" to far flung parts of this globe to try and make a difference and maybe escape what it is to be us still here. A couple of 100,000 went and are largely forgotten today, except in those countries they went to. And we went to places beyond where "irish american" politicians hoover for votes sporting the green. The South Americas are positively infected with MIcks. Che Guevara Lynch but one example(a close mate of mine is a distant rellie of his). As a culture we've traveled and were welcoming to the wayfarer, like Columba, Columbanus et al a thousand years before us. One Saxon writer was flabbergasted to note that the Irish welcomes all seekers of learning for no recompense. We could do well to plug into that cultural history today.
True and true.
The Jewish population in Ireland was always small, and more a novelty than a threat. In the 1870s the Jewish population of Ireland was only about 250, before exiles fleeing European and especially Russian pogroms caused it to rise (interestingly, in the light of the history of the last decade, many of these came from Lithuania). It never exceeded 5,000, and is only about half that now.
If the population had been ten or twenty times that much, centred in the cities (which would have been more typical in Europe), with the business skills and industry which was historically a double-edged sword, in that it both caused them to prosper and drew unwelcome attention, envy and in time hatred, would they have been both more visible and seen as more of a threat?
Or given that we blamed everything on the English anyway, and didn't need the Jews to be our scapegoats, would that have made a difference?
The other major factor was of course the tendency of historical Christianity / Catholicism to demonise the Jews as Christ-murderers. Again, if they had been more visible, would we have had more John Creaghs? ... more intolerant bigots whipping up the crowds?
Yes, Ireland, comparatively speaking has a pretty good history in this respect. To what extent though is this a factor of the relatively small Jewish population? Or of the fact that we had someone else to blame for our woes?
It can be noted that the Irish government wasn't exactly throwing the doors open wide for Jewish refugees from the Holocaust. Names like Hugh O'Flaherty, TJ Kiernan and Delia Murphy are remembered with pride, and rightly so, but this eclipses a less than praiseworthy attitude by the state.
Interestingly, the first references to Jews in Ireland were in the Annals of Inisfallen in 1079: "Five Jews came from over sea with gifts to Toirdelbach, and they were sent back again over sea". Sent back, eh? Interesting choice of words!
I hope you're right, Wibbs, but I'm not so sanguine. 'Tis an academic discussion, though, we'll never know!0 -
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