Doberman with Erect Ears

Music4Life085

Is it possible to buy dobermans with erect ears like this:



In Ireland?

Raminahobbin

I'm not sure if you know...but ears like that are surgically cropped so that they stand up. I'm not too sure if it's illegal in Ireland, but if it's not it certainly is frowned upon quite heavily and I seriously doubt any reputable vet would preform the surgery. I've never seen a dobe with cropped ears in Ireland. It's quite an unnecessary and cruel practice, IMO.

http://www.doginfopedia.com/doberman-ears.jpg

The Sweeper

It's illegal.

The ears are surgically cut when the dog is a pup. The soft dust flap (the pinna) at the back is sliced off and the edge is stitched or glued, and the ears are then tied into upright cones for a number of weeks so they heal in a propped position - just like in the picture shown by Raminahobbin. There's quite a bit of wound management involved to prevent infection and sometimes the ears need to be rebandaged because they're not 'setting' properly - so even after the surgery one or both may still flop.

cjf

Ear cropping is illegal in Ireland. It is classed as mutilation. Mutilating a dog for cosmetic purposes.

In countries where it is legal you would not buy a fully cropped pup you would buy a pup with plastic posts and bandages holding his mutilated ears in place for months until they set.

Music4Life085

Wow didn't know that it was surgical wow! Thanks forum

ABajaninCork

Cropped ears are horrible on a Dobie! :eek: Lovely floppy ears, and curly tails is what they should have. Just as nature intended.

SingItOut

I've actually seen a few dobermans with cropped ears around here so it is not uncommon. While I think they look better left naturally, if ear cropping is done humanely (if that's possible) then I don't see much of a problem.

pinkdaisy

Raminahobbin wrote: »

I'm not sure if you know...but ears like that are surgically cropped so that they stand up. I'm not too sure if it's illegal in Ireland, but if it's not it certainly is frowned upon quite heavily and I seriously doubt any reputable vet would preform the surgery. I've never seen a dobe with cropped ears in Ireland. It's quite an unnecessary and cruel practice, IMO.

http://www.doginfopedia.com/doberman-ears.jpg

Exactly. Surgically cropped if they're lucky. It is illegal in Ireland.
And as a Vet working in the Uk I can tell you no vet in the UK would perform this surgery either. I have vaccinated one in England and it was imported from mainland europe and the ears were glued as a puppy to make them that shape. The dog freaked out when anyone touched its ears.
If you want one you need to import it. But I really wouldn't recommend it. At all.

pinkdaisy

SingItOut wrote: »

I've actually seen a few dobermans with cropped ears around here so it is not uncommon. While I think they look better left naturally, if ear cropping is done humanely (if that's possible) then I don't see much of a problem.

It's not possible to do it humanely.

DBB

SingItOut wrote: »

I've actually seen a few dobermans with cropped ears around here so it is not uncommon. While I think they look better left naturally, if ear cropping is done humanely (if that's possible) then I don't see much of a problem.

There simply is no way to humanely crop ears. That is why vets are not allowed to do it. It is entirely cosmetic, there is no argument to do it on health grounds.
The surgery itself is quite extensive, but as already explained here, the dog has to remain in extremely limiting bandages and dressing for anything up to a year following surgery. For me, that is the worst part of it. The effect of enforcing a young dog into wearing hard bandaging on his head for many months means they cannot interact properly with other dogs or people, and often have dog- or human-related hang-ups for life as a result.
Given that there isn't exactly a shortage of pointy-eared breeds, it defies logic, and it certainly defies even the most slapdash attempt at animal welfare, to put any sort of positive slant on this barbaric practise.

scudzilla

Ear cropping is jsut vile and disgusting behaviour from people who claim to have a love of animals. If i could i'd like to crop the owners balls to see how they like the pain.
Boxers have them done too, and, IMO, look hideous

Music4Life085

Why is it cruel are the animals in a lot of pain? Don't get pissed with me I don't even have a dog I'm curious to learn not to do !

scudzilla

The Sweeper wrote: »

It's illegal.

The ears are surgically cut when the dog is a pup. The soft dust flap (the pinna) at the back is sliced off and the edge is stitched or glued, and the ears are then tied into upright cones for a number of weeks so they heal in a propped position - just like in the picture shown by Raminahobbin. There's quite a bit of wound management involved to prevent infection and sometimes the ears need to be rebandaged because they're not 'setting' properly - so even after the surgery one or both may still flop.

Music4Life085 wrote: »

Why is it cruel are the animals in a lot of pain? Don't get pissed with me I don't even have a dog I'm curious to learn not to do !

Not pissed off with you, just read Sweepers post then ask yourself again if the animals are in pain

Music4Life085

see what you mean...Well Forum do you guys recommend Dobermans? Do you recommend any breeders in dublin?

Irishchick

All of the Doberman's I have seen in practise have really just been big idiots! They're really lovable and friendly.

You could contact the IKC for information on breeders.

Do your research first though, they are large strong dogs and like all dogs can become unruly if not properly trained.

On the subject of ear cropping. It can lead to aggression and fighting between dogs because of mis-communication. Dog use their ears to communicate. Pointed ears portray fear/stress and/or aggression to other dogs. They need movement in the ears and tail to communicate properly.

Dyr

Irishchick wrote: »

On the subject of ear cropping. It can lead to aggression and fighting between dogs because of mis-communication. Dog use their ears to communicate. Pointed ears portray fear/stress and/or aggression to other dogs. They need movement in the ears and tail to communicate properly.

Show me some reputable research behind this, because frankly it's sounds like nonsense.

Irishchick

Bambi wrote: »

Show me some reputable research behind this, because frankly it's sounds like nonsense.

Eh, read any reputable book on dog behaviour and communication

You think its nonsense that dogs use their ears and tails to communicate!?

I'm starting to think your trolling!! Or are you actually being serious??

seamus

Bambi wrote: »

Show me some reputable research behind this, because frankly it's sounds like nonsense.

Tbh, anyone who's ever owned a dog will tell you that the ears form a large part of the dog's body language.

Few dogs' ears stand to attention in the way that cropped ears do, but the ears sitting forward and up indicates that the dog is in a state of heightened alertness and will be used for a number of moods, one of which is a dominant posture approaching another dog. In this context, it's part of a number of responses which make the dog appear more imposing.

Naturally other dogs can pick up on these cues and will interpret them accordingly. When the dog is surgically altered (such as by ear or tail docking), it can cause the dog's intention to be misinterpreted both by humans and other animals.

Pure aggression (i.e. about to attack), the ears actually go back to protect themselves, but up to that point the ears sit forward. Since a cropped ear can't be placed back to indicate submission or relaxation, another dominant dog may misinterpret the dobie's intentions.

fatmammycat

Bambi, do you own a dog at all? Along with his tail and his ruff my own dog uses his ears to communicate constantly. Forward when alert/curious, relaxed around dogs he knows, flat when anxious, semi-flat when unsure about something/someone, rotating when trying to find the source of sound, back against his skull when tired. If I sliced and diced them to be pointed into alert at all times of course it would send mixed messages.

And having owned a doberman previously I can tell you that enough people are afraid of them without owners utting them through surgery to make them look more aggressive.

Irishchick

Thanks for that! I was too gob smacked to write a decent reply lol!!

SingItOut

Music4Life085 wrote: »

see what you mean...Well Forum do you guys recommend Dobermans? Do you recommend any breeders in dublin?

There is actually a female four month old tan and black doberman pup in a rescue centre in kilkenny if you wanted to go to rescue route?

Dyr

seamus wrote: »

Few dogs' ears stand to attention in the way that cropped ears do,

Orly . I would say that ears to standing to attention is far more common and natural than floppy ears in canines. Every dog I had held their ears in the same manner that a cropped dobie would.

Since a cropped ear can't be placed back

Orly? Not from what I've seen of dogs with cropped ears, same range of motion is still there, certainly more range of motion than a floppy eared breed would have:

Both my dogs are breeds that have naturally erect, forward carried ears and tight sickle tails, so presumbaly they are suffering the same communication problems that a dog which has both tail and ears cropped have. Presumably dogs with heavy dropped ears are suffering from the same thing as they cannot cock their ears, Presumably dogs with massive coats like the puli have the same problem as their ears and tail are hidden.

Like I said, reputable research to back this up please because it sounds like retrospective justification.

Music4Life085

SingItOut wrote: »

There is actually a female four month old tan and black doberman pup in a rescue centre in kilkenny if you wanted to go to rescue route?

Check your private message?

Sigma Force

the whole eat thing aside.
There's lots of dobies in rescue atm adult ones as well pm me if you want to contact the person who has them.

cjf

If considering a dobie I'd defo advise you do loads of research on the breed. While all dogs are individuals dobies are quite breed specific and share alot of common characteristics. Clingy, tendency for seperation anxiety, highly energetic, requires alot of of mental and physical exercise to keep them relaxed and happy, can be wilful, hyper intelligent and needs calm and firm training. Very sensitive so if mistreated or handled harshly can develop nervousness. Requires alot of socialisation with people and dogs on an ongoing basis to maintain social skills. Prone to sensitive digestion so needs a high quality dry food to keep things solid .. Which isnt cheap considering their size and food requirement. If getting a young dobe or puppy prepare to live with the typical puppy stage for 2+ years ... They take a long time to mature fully and many owners claim they never mature fully untill well into the 4-5 years age. Also consider insurance as they can be accident prone and due to size all vet treatment is pricey! If you provide your dobie with all he requires and commit to the time and energy it takes to keep them fit, well and social you will have a happy 40kilo lap dog who is a loyal friend and protector.

Rommie

Bambi wrote: »

Both my dogs are breeds that have naturally erect, forward carried ears and tight sickle tails, so presumbaly they are suffering the same communication problems that a dog which has both tail and ears cropped have. Presumably dogs with heavy dropped ears are suffering from the same thing as they cannot cock their ears, Presumably dogs with massive coats like the puli have the same problem as their ears and tail are hidden.

Ehm, yes actually that's exactly how it is. My housemate has four akitas, they are constantly being attacked by other dogs that misread them because of their erect ears and curled tails (they never react in turn thankfully, they just step back). To other dogs they look like they're ready for action, the tightly curled tail wag is hard to spot and normally friendly dogs either end up lunging at them, or fearfully rolling onto their backs.

There are a lot of signals dogs use to communicate, they don't just use one part of their body to make these signals, but by cutting off and mangling two rather important communication devices, some dogs do end up having a lot of trouble.

Not on cropping, but on docking: http://web.uvic.ca/~reimlab/robodog.pdf
In summary, dogs tended to stop and show a lot more caution around a model with a short tail than they did around a model with a long tail

Music4Life085

cjf wrote: »

If considering a dobie I'd defo advise you do loads of research on the breed. While all dogs are individuals dobies are quite breed specific and share alot of common characteristics. Clingy, tendency for seperation anxiety, highly energetic, requires alot of of mental and physical exercise to keep them relaxed and happy, can be wilful, hyper intelligent and needs calm and firm training. Very sensitive so if mistreated or handled harshly can develop nervousness. Requires alot of socialisation with people and dogs on an ongoing basis to maintain social skills. Prone to sensitive digestion so needs a high quality dry food to keep things solid .. Which isnt cheap considering their size and food requirement. If getting a young dobe or puppy prepare to live with the typical puppy stage for 2+ years ... They take a long time to mature fully and many owners claim they never mature fully untill well into the 4-5 years age. Also consider insurance as they can be accident prone and due to size all vet treatment is pricey! If you provide your dobie with all he requires and commit to the time and energy it takes to keep them fit, well and social you will have a happy 40kilo lap dog who is a loyal friend and protector.

I've been wanting a dog for as long as I remember!

My mums dad did greyhound racing so she grew up with them and knows a good bit. My dad grew up in South Africa where all his dogs were guard dogs like self trained and were trained to attack but yet not to them so my dad has tones of experience. When I was little I had two little dogs but I was only 5 so can't really remember too much about them only a little. Two years ago my brother had two dogs a Boxer cross and Terrier Cross that was my second experience with dogs I brought them for walks when ever I stayed over then my brother went to South Africa so had to give them away But when my brother went to South Africa he got two guard dogs a Mastiff and a St Bernard Cross Something. So although this will be my first dog that will be long term everyone in my family has experience with dogs especially big ones. Like the mastiff was huge! I died when I saw the pictures!

There will always be someone at home so the dog will have socialization,

So far my research have shown me that these dogs are loyal but can be doggie around strangers, I went on the dspca and read about laws about these types of dogs e.g Have to be kept on short lead. I need to do more research on diet but

SingItOut

Music4Life085 wrote: »

Check your private message?

PM was sent.

The Sweeper

Music4Life085 wrote: »

I've been wanting a dog for as long as I remember!

My mums dad did greyhound racing so she grew up with them and knows a good bit. My dad grew up in South Africa where all his dogs were guard dogs like self trained and were trained to attack but yet not to them so my dad has tones of experience. When I was little I had two little dogs but I was only 5 so can't really remember too much about them only a little. Two years ago my brother had two dogs a Boxer cross and Terrier Cross that was my second experience with dogs I brought them for walks when ever I stayed over then my brother went to South Africa so had to give them away But when my brother went to South Africa he got two guard dogs a Mastiff and a St Bernard Cross Something. So although this will be my first dog that will be long term everyone in my family has experience with dogs especially big ones. Like the mastiff was huge! I died when I saw the pictures!

Hey OP

Few wee bells ringing here:

Greyhounds are not normally well treated by their trainers. They're raised to run and then discarded if they don't run well. Unless your grandfather was an exception to the rule of greyhound trainers and racers, be wary of taking on board your mum's childhood experience of 'how to treat dogs' as it were.

Your dad's experience - similarly, under no circumstances whatsoever should you attempt to train your new dog to attack or defend the home. South Africa is quite literally a whole different country when it comes to dogs on property. I have good friends from SA and Zim and they have stories from their own childhoods about raising dogs. The thing that struck me is that they were usually on spacious property, and had dogs that would be highly human aggressive to strangers, but that was okay in the region they lived in. A human-aggressive dog would be an absolute disaster anywhere in urban or suburban Ireland, and frankly an absolute disaster rurally too. We don't have properties the size of the stations in Africa, and in our smaller properties - couple of acres - we don't have them fenced off with hurricane wire fencing with a razor wire top.

Your brother's experience with his boxer cross and terrier cross also isn't great. I'm glad to hear he rehomed his dogs before moving, but you really do need to have a comprehensive plan for your pets before you get them. If you move, will you take them with you? Have you specific homes in mind if you go? Do you understand the difficulty of rehoming them? If there's a chance you may move, should you get a dog?

Last thing - a dog with someone always home isn't a well socialised dog. It'll most certainly be a happier dog if it's permitted indoors, because it will always have company, and that will be great. In order to be well socialised, it needs to be taken out from puppyhood and introduced to sights, sounds and smells that it won't see in its own home - other dogs, kids, teenagers on skateboards, the postman on a bicycle, groups of shoppers, people outside a coffee shop, so on, so forth.

You seem to be willing to research - just be very aware that if you get a large, powerful dog, you are essentially taking on a liability. It's up to you to ensure that dog is well trained using appropriate methods, well socialised with everything and everyone and most importantly that your dog is capable of being walked in public places without reacting to sights and sounds and other dogs. If you miss a stage, or make a mistake in your choices, it's hard to go back and retrain, so try to get it right from the outset. I'm not trying to be mean about your folks at all, but basically I wouldn't be taking the experiences of greyhound-raising, or owning human aggressive property guard dogs in South Africa, as models for raising a large dog in Ireland.

Music4Life085

The Sweeper wrote: »

Hey OP

Few wee bells ringing here:

Greyhounds are not normally well treated by their trainers. They're raised to run and then discarded if they don't run well. Unless your grandfather was an exception to the rule of greyhound trainers and racers, be wary of taking on board your mum's childhood experience of 'how to treat dogs' as it were.

Your dad's experience - similarly, under no circumstances whatsoever should you attempt to train your new dog to attack or defend the home. South Africa is quite literally a whole different country when it comes to dogs on property. I have good friends from SA and Zim and they have stories from their own childhoods about raising dogs. The thing that struck me is that they were usually on spacious property, and had dogs that would be highly human aggressive to strangers, but that was okay in the region they lived in. A human-aggressive dog would be an absolute disaster anywhere in urban or suburban Ireland, and frankly an absolute disaster rurally too. We don't have properties the size of the stations in Africa, and in our smaller properties - couple of acres - we don't have them fenced off with hurricane wire fencing with a razor wire top.

Your brother's experience with his boxer cross and terrier cross also isn't great. I'm glad to hear he rehomed his dogs before moving, but you really do need to have a comprehensive plan for your pets before you get them. If you move, will you take them with you? Have you specific homes in mind if you go? Do you understand the difficulty of rehoming them? If there's a chance you may move, should you get a dog?

Last thing - a dog with someone always home isn't a well socialised dog. It'll most certainly be a happier dog if it's permitted indoors, because it will always have company, and that will be great. In order to be well socialised, it needs to be taken out from puppyhood and introduced to sights, sounds and smells that it won't see in its own home - other dogs, kids, teenagers on skateboards, the postman on a bicycle, groups of shoppers, people outside a coffee shop, so on, so forth.

You seem to be willing to research - just be very aware that if you get a large, powerful dog, you are essentially taking on a liability. It's up to you to ensure that dog is well trained using appropriate methods, well socialised with everything and everyone and most importantly that your dog is capable of being walked in public places without reacting to sights and sounds and other dogs. If you miss a stage, or make a mistake in your choices, it's hard to go back and retrain, so try to get it right from the outset. I'm not trying to be mean about your folks at all, but basically I wouldn't be taking the experiences of greyhound-raising, or owning human aggressive property guard dogs in South Africa, as models for raising a large dog in Ireland.

No what I'm, saying is that this isn't the first experience with big dogs we will have and You have to understand that the circumstances in South Africa are different than here, This dog will be brought up as a pet and not a guard dog. What I meant is my family is comfortable with large dogs, As for going away my brother decided to go away long term, If we were going away we are willing to pay travelling fees for the dog.

Run_to_da_hills

I had a cropped eared Doberman in the 80's was given to me as a stray. Very effectuation, wouldn't get on with other dogs, He looked vicious but was useless as a guard dog.