Middle Class Dole, does it exist?

tomtherobot

I heard a friend use the phrase 'middle class dole' lately and thought it was a common term, so a quick google to find out it's not. Queue a little surprise on my part, but why is not?

Well to start, 'middle class dole', as my friend used the term, describes how the middle class can abuse public funds. There's lots of argument about the conventional dole and it's often put forward that it's people sponging, undeserving wasters etc. But do middle class people 'sponge'?. I can think of 3 examples off the top of my head.

1) I used to work in a publicly funded disability service and while most of the people there were caring and hard working one guy in particular did absolutely nothing. When the boss wasn't around, he would sit on his ass and watch tv to the point that he'd let the service users sit in their own piss and **** and not even have the decency to take them to the toilet. On a sunday, getting the double rate premiums, he could take home 300-400 hundred quid for a twelve hour shift of sitting on his ass watching tv.

2) I worked for a short while as a pizza delivery driver while i was in college. Most of the guys working there were signing on. I know they were breaking the law but what of the owner? We would get less than minimum wage for this cash in hand job. A full week's work would bring in about two hundred quid, not enough to keep a car on the road. So the owner is getting his business subsidized to the tune of at least a grand a week because he doesn't have to pay a proper driver's rate. Plus, he's not breaking the law. Sweet, middle class dole.

3) The various tribunals. I don't need to explain this, I think we can all see how public funds were taken advantage here.

That's just three examples of 'middle class dole' that spring to mind. So does this phenomenon exist and does anybody have any other examples?

FloatingVoter

Report number 1. If he's still "working" he is a scumbag deserving of death but certainly jail and public humiliation. As for doing a few nixers leave number 2 alone - we all get by.
We're all aware of no. 3.

al28283

What? I litterally have no idea what you're talking about, your examples are not good.

But clearly if you can give 3 examples of something then it must exist

The King of Moo

"Middle class dole" is a bit of a misleading term. "Middle class benefit fraud" would make more sense.

I'd imagine that such things exist wherever the opportunity presents itself. But obviously, there are more opportunities for benefit/welfare fraud among poorer people, who'd receive more assistance.

El Weirdo

tomtherobot wrote: »

2) I worked for a short while as a pizza delivery driver while i was in college. Most of the guys working there were signing on. I know they were breaking the law but what of the owner? We would get less than minimum wage for this cash in hand job. A full week's work would bring in about two hundred quid, not enough to keep a car on the road. So the owner is getting his business subsidized to the tune of at least a grand a week because he doesn't have to pay a proper driver's rate. Plus, he's not breaking the law. Sweet, middle class dole.

Of course he's breaking the law. He's paying less than minimum wage (the clue's in the name) and he's clearly not paying his employers' contributions.

eoins23456

Aren't you just describing spongers and tax frauds?

davet82

1. thats criminal, its abuse! report him!

2. Unless you want to pay 10 euro delivery charge everytime you order a pizza leave that one alone

3. We know all about tribunals unfortunatley

old hippy

Oh goody, another swathe of society to demonise/generalise/ rolls eyes

tomtherobot

No 1 was reported by a lot of the staff working there, because he was clever enough to look like he was working when the manager was around there was never enough evidence (at least that's what we were told). He was complained then to higher management and said he was being bullied by the other staff and that's why so many people had complained him. Again they said there wasn't enough evidence.

I had a look into where else he could be complained but basically there's no governing body for disability services. I know there was a prime time show on them last year and how HIQA need to be involved but i read lately it's been put on the long finger again.

ameeee

tomtherobot wrote: »

I heard a friend use the phrase 'middle class dole' lately and thought it was a common term, so a quick google to find out it's not. Queue a little surprise on my part, but why is not?

Well to start, 'middle class dole', as my friend used the term, describes how the middle class can abuse public funds. There's lots of argument about the conventional dole and it's often put forward that it's people sponging, undeserving wasters etc. But do middle class people 'sponge'?. I can think of 3 examples off the top of my head.

1) I used to work in a publicly funded disability service and while most of the people there were caring and hard working one guy in particular did absolutely nothing. When the boss wasn't around, he would sit on his ass and watch tv to the point that he'd let the service users sit in their own piss and **** and not even have the decency to take them to the toilet. On a sunday, getting the double rate premiums, he could take home 300-400 hundred quid for a twelve hour shift of sitting on his ass watching tv.

2) I worked for a short while as a pizza delivery driver while i was in college. Most of the guys working there were signing on. I know they were breaking the law but what of the owner? We would get less than minimum wage for this cash in hand job. A full week's work would bring in about two hundred quid, not enough to keep a car on the road. So the owner is getting his business subsidized to the tune of at least a grand a week because he doesn't have to pay a proper driver's rate. Plus, he's not breaking the law. Sweet, middle class dole.

3) The various tribunals. I don't need to explain this, I think we can all see how public funds were taken advantage here.

That's just three examples of 'middle class dole' that spring to mind. So does this phenomenon exist and does anybody have any other examples?

You're confusing different things. There is fraud which is usually white collar and obviously is a crime. Your first example is merely laziness at work which I imagine all classes are guilty of. Also, sometimes civil servants claim a lot of expenses which is possibly morally dubious. I'm not sure how anyone would use the term 'middle-class dole' to describe the above. It would however be used to describe an educated professional who has been made redundant and is claiming benefits. I think that is the only way in which the term can be applied.

tomtherobot

eoins23456 wrote: »

Aren't you just describing spongers and tax frauds?

A lot of people seem to think that a sponging mindset is common amongst the unemployed. I'm neither a agreeing or disagreeing. What I'm asking does this attitude exist in the middle classes and to what extent.

El Weirdo wrote: »

Of course he's breaking the law. He's paying less than minimum wage (the clue's in the name) and he's clearly not paying his employers' contributions.

Well, i don't think we were his employees. We were contracted to provide a service and not working for him. I don't know for sure that this is legal, but this is how he had it set up and it seems to fairly common practice for nixers.

tomtherobot

ameeee wrote: »

You're confusing different things. There is fraud which is usually white collar and obviously is a crime.

Well if that's the case people who sign on and don't look for work are just individuals committing fraud and we can forget about all the generalization's and moralizing that surround unemployment.

floggg

The phrase is dumb and meaningless. Middle class dole would imply some special benefit for middle class only.

I don't know of any and you certainly haven't pointed to any.

Also there is no logical link between the examples you've described.

The first is just somebody who is **** at their job and lazy. To be honest, it can be harder to get away with that (but by no means impossible) in better paying jobs, so it would probably be as much a "working class" issue as middle class.

The second is illegal. And for the staff who are on the dole and accepting less than minimum wage, they are hardly middle class now are they?

Barristers and judges in tribunals are more likely to be upper class. And while they might be over paid, they are working for what they charge so it's hardly comparable to dole or benefits.

But otherwise, great rant about three entirely unrelated scenarios.

Since you asked for examples, I shall also suggest chuggers as an example of middle class dole. They have absolutely nothin to do with the dole, but I don't like them and they get money for something so it seems to be enough to bring it within the parameter you have set out.

floggg

tomtherobot wrote: »

ameeee wrote: »

You're confusing different things. There is fraud which is usually white collar and obviously is a crime.

Well if that's the case people who sign on and don't look for work are just individuals committing fraud and we can forget about all the generalization's and moralizing that surround unemployment.

You don't really understand the word fraud do you?

NinjaK

tomtherobot wrote: »

I heard a friend use the phrase 'middle class dole' lately and thought it was a common term, so a quick google to find out it's not. Queue a little surprise on my part, but why is not?

Well to start, 'middle class dole', as my friend used the term, describes how the middle class can abuse public funds. There's lots of argument about the conventional dole and it's often put forward that it's people sponging, undeserving wasters etc. But do middle class people 'sponge'?. I can think of 3 examples off the top of my head.

1) I used to work in a publicly funded disability service and while most of the people there were caring and hard working one guy in particular did absolutely nothing. When the boss wasn't around, he would sit on his ass and watch tv to the point that he'd let the service users sit in their own piss and **** and not even have the decency to take them to the toilet. On a sunday, getting the double rate premiums, he could take home 300-400 hundred quid for a twelve hour shift of sitting on his ass watching tv.

2) I worked for a short while as a pizza delivery driver while i was in college. Most of the guys working there were signing on. I know they were breaking the law but what of the owner? We would get less than minimum wage for this cash in hand job. A full week's work would bring in about two hundred quid, not enough to keep a car on the road. So the owner is getting his business subsidized to the tune of at least a grand a week because he doesn't have to pay a proper driver's rate. Plus, he's not breaking the law. Sweet, middle class dole.

3) The various tribunals. I don't need to explain this, I think we can all see how public funds were taken advantage here.

That's just three examples of 'middle class dole' that spring to mind. So does this phenomenon exist and does anybody have any other examples?

Jesus, your just a clown

tomtherobot

floggg wrote: »

You don't really understand the word fraud do you?

Ok maybe not technically fraud but it's commonly called dole fraud or welfare cheating, it's illegal. The point i'm making is that when middle class people sponge it's just bad individuals, when it's the unemployed it's a whole class.

And just for clarification the second example i've used is about the owner. He's saving himself a grand a week on his wage bill and he won't get locked up if he's caught. The guys working for him are working, taking home a small wage and if caught could be imprisoned.

al28283

tomtherobot wrote: »

Ok maybe not technically fraud

why is it not technically fraud?

tomtherobot

al28283 wrote: »

why is it not technically fraud?

I was replying to frogg and I think the point he was making is that the legal term for 'dole cheating' isn't fraud. I don't know that it is or isn't. The point im making is that when middle class people sponge or cheat or misappropriate public funds, they're discussed as individuals.

wp_rathead

tomtherobot wrote: »

1) I used to work in a publicly funded disability service and while most of the people there were caring and hard working one guy in particular did absolutely nothing. When the boss wasn't around, he would sit on his ass and watch tv to the point that he'd let the service users sit in their own piss and **** and not even have the decency to take them to the toilet. On a sunday, getting the double rate premiums, he could take home 300-400 hundred quid for a twelve hour shift of sitting on his ass watching tv.

did you not report him?!!!!!!! if not, you just as guilty of neglect

al28283

you are basically asking why two completely different things are not treated the same. It's because they are two different things

tomtherobot

wprathead wrote: »

did you not report him?!!!!!!! if not, you just as guilty of neglect

Yup, i've covered this. He was reported, nothing done and there is no being guilty of neglect when it comes to the disabled. There's no law saying what the standard of care should be, just 'voluntary' guidelines. I think this is appalling but there just doesn't seem to be much public interest in these issues.

tomtherobot

al28283 wrote: »

you are basically asking why two completely different things are not treated the same. It's because they are two different things

Would they not be different forms of the same thing. If you agree that both are an immoral use of public funds, then they're just different methods of doing this.

In example two, why does the owner get treated so differently from the workers. Surely, he's as, if not more, guilty?

floggg

tomtherobot wrote: »

floggg wrote: »

You don't really understand the word fraud do you?

Ok maybe not technically fraud but it's commonly called dole fraud or welfare cheating, it's illegal. The point i'm making is that when middle class people sponge it's just bad individuals, when it's the unemployed it's a whole class.

And just for clarification the second example i've used is about the owner. He's saving himself a grand a week on his wage bill and he won't get locked up if he's caught. The guys working for him are working, taking home a small wage and if caught could be imprisoned.

So, no, you don't know the meaning of the term.

People who sign up for the dole and don't look for a job don't commit dole fraud or any other form of fraud. They are just lazy good for nothing sponges.

People who sign up for the dole, look for a job, get one, but continues to draw the dole do however commit a type of fraud known as dole fraud.

And I'm no expert but I'm sure there are criminal sanctions for somebody who cheats revenue.

No in your example, the pizza shop owner would be cheating revenue if he employed drivers under a contract of service (i.e. employee) but didn't pay prsi/paye. He would also be guilty of an offence under the minimum wage legislation and liable to fines and/or imprisonment on conviction.

Of course if he lawfully engaged you under a contract for services (i.e. service provider, not employee - one word makes a big difference) then you would have been liable to account to revenue for income tax depending on the amount earned, and failure to comply would also likely be an offence.

You would obviously be the delinquent there, not him.

Let me know which is the case so I will know which of you I should judge.

PS - if they are committing dole fraud, they should be imprisoned. Either claim the job or work as a delivery driver. Nobody makes them do both.

tomtherobot

floggg wrote: »

People who sign up for the dole and don't look for a job don't commit dole fraud or any other form of fraud. They are just lazy good for nothing sponges.

I'm pretty sure this is also illegal. If you sign for the dole you're signing to say you're looking for work and if you don't it's 'fraud' or illegal in some form.

floggg wrote: »

Of course if he lawfully engaged you under a contract for services (i.e. service provider, not employee - one word makes a big difference) then you would have been liable to account to revenue for income tax depending on the amount earned, and failure to comply would also likely be an offence.

You would obviously be the delinquent there, not him.

Why, would i be the delinquent there not him? This guy is having the public paying his wage bill and getting away with it. He's availing a clear bias in the legal system favouring 'middle class dole'.

In every meaningful sense this guy is employing the drivers. He also (in this case) knows there signing on. But he's legally doing nothing wrong and the drivers can be imprisoned. Lovely.

tomtherobot

floggg wrote: »

PS - if they are committing dole fraud, they should be imprisoned. Either claim the job or work as a delivery driver. Nobody makes them do both.

Nobody makes the owner hire people on the dole. He can employ people as employees and pay the correct taxes if he wishes. Why isn't he facing prison for not doing so?

Festy

Middle class dole stands for people who don't wear tracksuits on signing day or when collecting their money from the post office.

floggg

tomtherobot wrote: »

I'm pretty sure this is also illegal. If you sign for the dole you're signing to say you're looking for work and if you don't it's 'fraud' or illegal in some form.

No expert on social welfare law, but I doubt it's a criminal offence. If it was, they'd be arresting people who didn't look for a job, not just proposing to cut their payments.

tomtherobot wrote: »

Why, would i be the delinquent there not him? This guy is having the public paying his wage bill and getting away with it. He's availing a clear bias in the legal system favouring 'middle class dole'.

In every meaningful sense this guy is employing the drivers. He also (in this case) knows there signing on. But he's legally doing nothing wrong and the drivers can be imprisoned. Lovely.

Did you read what I posted?

If he employs them as employees, he's committing criminal offences if he doesn't pay taxes and pays below the minimum wage.

If he engages them as service providers, he wouldn't be committing any crime per se. In the same way you wouldn't be committing an offence if you didn't pay PRSI for a plumber you get in to fix your sink, or a gardener who does your lawn once a week.

And he's not getting the public to pay his wages. if they are employees, he's committing revenue offences and offences under minimum wage legislation. if he has structured it as a contract for services, then the fact that the drivers are committing a criminal offence isn't his problem. It's their.

tomtherobot wrote: »

Nobody makes the owner hire people on the dole. He can employ people as employees and pay the correct taxes if he wishes. Why isn't he facing prison for not doing so?

Nobody is making them commit revenue fraud. If they are employees he would be facing prison.

Report him if you feel strongly on the issue.

tomtherobot

I don't think you get what i'm saying. I think he's benefiting immorally from employing these people. Whether, under legal definition, he's employing them or contracting a service from them is irrelevant (though it shows the law favours 'middle class dole')

Either way, the people working for him are being paid from the public purse and he knows this.

Whenever there's an outrage about dole fraud and people working while signing on we never hear about the employers. If all these people are working while signing a lot of business owners can benefit by having their wage bill subsidized.

Chinasea

Newsflash:

The middle class are the working class.

The working class choose not to work.

tomtherobot

Chinasea wrote: »

Newsflash:

The middle class are the working class.

The working class choose not to work.

And a significant portion of this middle class are cheating the public purse while at work?

BornToKill

tomtherobot wrote: »

I heard a friend use the phrase 'middle class dole' lately and thought it was a common term, so a quick google to find out it's not.

Maybe you just misheard what he said. If not, I can't really see it catching on as a popular phrase. Seems a bit confused to me.

tomtherobot

Maybe it won't catch on but i still think it's a very interesting phenomenon. There seems to be a completely different attitude to middle class people misusing public funds.