Traveller woman beaten to death in Louth.**Mod warning in post 1**

tayto lover

mango salsa wrote: »

Saying that it is a tradition for traveller men to beat their wives is frankly disgusting. Some might do it but frankly I do not believe that all traveller men are encouraged to beat their wives and I have worked with some traveller women as well.

Of course not all of them do it but some do and think it is their right to do so. Nobody said anything about encouraging it at all. Where did you get that from ?

dharma200

Its funny when a man beats his wife to death, such as Joe whatshisname murdering scumbag... he is just a woman beater and murderer, But when it happens to travellers it is tradition? Ofcourse its not traditon. There are woman being beat all round this country right now... its not tradition for any group.

using the 'I worked with travellers' thing, well, really you shouldnt if you are of the conclusion that domestic violence is something more inherrant in their community than it is in any other.

Annasopra

tayto lover wrote: »

Of course not all of them do it but some do and think it is their right to do so.

That does not make it a tradition or culture

Annasopra

dharma200 wrote: »

Its funny when a man beats his wife to death, such as Joe whatshisname murdering scumbag... he is just a woman beater and murderer, But when it happens to travellers it is tradition? Ofcourse its not traditon. There are woman being beat all round this country right now... its not tradition for any group.

using the 'I worked with travellers' thing, well, really you shouldnt if you are of the conclusion that domestic violence is something more inherrant in their community than it is in any other.

+1000000

tayto lover

mango salsa wrote: »

That does not make it a tradition or culture

Then you need to talk more with them yourself.
How do you explain the lack of court cases about it then in the traveller community?

mikemac1

dharma200 wrote: »

Its funny when a man beats his wife to death, such as Joe whatshisname murdering scumbag... he is just a woman beater and murderer, But when it happens to travellers it is tradition? Ofcourse its not traditon. There are woman being beat all round this country right now... its not tradition for any group.

using the 'I worked with travellers' thing, well, really you shouldnt if you are of the conclusion that domestic violence is something more inherrant in their community than it is in any other.

Lets try a few stats

Yeah it's old but it states it was the best research out there at the time

And the first I found in google, it'll do

According to the Government Departments (Health and Justice) who have responsibilities in this area, the NCC study is the definitive piece of research on domestic violence in this country

The report

Ireland:
On Tuesday 5th July 2005 the National Crime Council (NCC), in association with the Economic and Social Research Institute (ESRI), published the first ever large scale study undertaken to give an overview of the nature, extent and impact of domestic abuse against women and men in intimate partner relationships in Ireland. Among the notable findings are:

Nothing strange here, affects both men and women

15% of women and 6% of men suffer severe domestic abuse
29% of women and 26% of men suffer domestic abuse when severe and
minor abuse are combined
13% of women and 13% of men suffer physical abuse
29% of women (1 in 3) and only 5% of men (1 in 20) report to the Gardaí

Huge over-representation here, almost half. How does a tiny group of the population account for almost half the visits to these refuges?

49% of admissions to women’s refuges are Travellers (according to the 2002 census Travellers account for just 0.6% of the entire population)
Of those turned away from refuges, 46% were for reasons other than
the refuges being full.

I got told I was selectively quoting by Nodin a while back!

Everything there is from the first paragraph, nothing taken out, just switched the order, a bit easier to read

http://www.amen.ie/Papers/15270.htm

Annasopra

tayto lover wrote: »

How do you explain the lack of court cases about it then in the traveller community?

The same as the settled community

Fear
Inability to be financially independent

The lack of court cases still does not make it a culture or tradition and frankly it's completely offensive to say it's traditional for travellers to beat their wives

Monty Burnz

mango salsa wrote: »

That does not make it a tradition or culture

It's not helpful to ignore the facts on the ground in a desperate attempt to be PC.

Kay's story may be similar to that of the 25% of women in the UK who are thought to experience domestic violence during their lifetimes – six to 10% of women suffer it in any given year – but a recent paper by the Equality and Human Rights Commission, suggests that women from the Gypsy and Traveller communities who report domestic violence will often have suffered it more severely and over a considerably longer period than other women. Although there is no conclusive evidence about the prevalence of this abuse, the paper cites a study in Wrexham, which found that between 61 and 81% of married Gypsy and Traveller women had experienced direct abuse from a partner.

Pretending the problem isn't endemic does a huge disservice to Traveller women and children for a start.

tayto lover

mango salsa wrote: »

The same as the settled community

Fear
Inability to be financially independent

The lack of court cases still does not make it a culture or tradition and frankly it's completely offensive to say it's traditional for travellers to beat their wives

Many of them go to refuges but I have never heard of or read of a court case out of any of it. Ask some traveller men and women yourself then?
Is the grabbing thing imaginary too?

Annasopra

Monty Burnz wrote: »

It's not helpful to ignore the facts on the ground in a desperate attempt to be PC.

Pretending the problem isn't endemic does a huge disservice to Traveller women and children for a start.

I'm not ignoring anything. I am stating that it is hugely offensive to generalise about domestic violence in the travelling community and call it a tradition or culture

Monty Burnz

mango salsa wrote: »

I'm not ignoring anything. I am stating that it is hugely offensive to generalise about domestic violence in the travelling community and call it a tradition or culture

If between 60% to 80% of people do something, does that not make it part of their culture?

And what's offensive is throwing the women and the kids under the bus by ignoring the problem.

tayto lover

mango salsa wrote: »

I'm not ignoring anything. I am stating that it is hugely offensive to generalise about domestic violence in the travelling community and call it a tradition or culture

Well then you should try to prove the post wrong then. Maybe do some research on it, interview a few travellers yourself.
I worked with them and listened to their stories. I don't know where you worked but i saw a lot of women travellers and spoke to them about it and that is what they told me.
I am not in the habit of making up lies on such a serious subject as domestic abuse.

Qualitymark

Ar dheis Dé go raibh a h-anam. It is tragic that three children - at the terribly vulnerable ages of 14, 10 and 5 - will have to grow up without the love, care and advice of their mother. They will never show off their first party outfits to her, or run home with a prize from school to Mammy, they will never now turn proudly to her at their wedding dinner and praise her upbringing for the good it brought them. Their memory of her is forever soiled and destroyed by her awful death. All her ambition for them - all her hope that her children might have made her proud and happy - may yet come about, but she will never see this, and they will never share it with her. Three little lives ruined, and their mother gone.

OnTheCounter

True.

The 5 year old might not suffer the psychological damage but the 14 and 10 year old could be terribly affected by this for the rest of their lives. I hope they get the right professional care to deal with this as best they can.

Qualitymark

OnTheCounter wrote: »

True.

The 5 year old might not suffer the psychological damage but the 14 and 10 year old could be terribly affected by this for the rest of their lives. I hope they get the right professional care to deal with this as best they can.

My uncle was 5 when he saw his mother's funeral pass by; his life was destroyed.

android1

Qualitymark wrote: »

My uncle was 5 when he saw his mother's funeral pass by; his life was destroyed.

Bloody hell.

Mr Whirly

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

I volunteer at a local women's refuge a couple of times a year and there are always traveller women there.

I volunteered in a women's refuge while in school many years ago.There are always settled women there too.

If you take the socioeconomic background of a lot of women that end up in these shelters you will find a lot of them come from disadvantaged communities. The traveling community is one of these.

If a woman from a middle to wealthier class family suffered the same abuse they would have less a call to enter such a place being more likely to have their own money or friends with money.

LoonyLovegood

I knew her when she lived in Finglas, she came into the wash-house I helped out in, absolutely lovely woman, doted on the kids. She was the only woman out of the travellers who came in whose husband helped her lift the bags in, if it was him I'd be shocked. May she rest in peace and I hope those kids are alright, they were lovely to talk to, very well mannered and polite.

ananas

Qualitymark wrote: »

Ar dheis Dé go raibh a h-anam. It is tragic that three children - at the terribly vulnerable ages of 14, 10 and 5 - will have to grow up without the love, care and advice of their mother. They will never show off their first party outfits to her, or run home with a prize from school to Mammy, they will never now turn proudly to her at their wedding dinner and praise her upbringing for the good it brought them. Their memory of her is forever soiled and destroyed by her awful death. All her ambition for them - all her hope that her children might have made her proud and happy - may yet come about, but she will never see this, and they will never share it with her. Three little lives ruined, and their mother gone.

This has brought tears to my eyes. So true. Poor things.

wonderfulname

Mr Whirly wrote: »

If you take the socioeconomic background of a lot of women that end up in these shelters you will find a lot of them come from disadvantaged communities. The traveling community is one of these.

Thank you, and I would wonder if the same holds true for values with respect to reporting domestic violence, and the importance of marriage, the family, etc, travellers generally struck me as what I'll call traditionally Irish in a way a lot of people of certain upbringings are, I think it's a problem with our culture in general, one we like to pretend we're past, not just a subculture within it.

Wibbs

wonderfulname wrote: »

I'll call traditionally Irish in a way a lot of people of certain upbringings are, I think it's a problem with our culture in general, one we like to pretend we're past, not just a subculture within it.

Certainly there is more than an element of this, however the stats show it's significantly more of a problem within that subculture, so as has been said trying to wriggle out of acknowledging that because of some noble but misplaced cultural sensitivity stuff does the victims no good at all and won't help reduce it.

Annasopra

Wibbs wrote: »

Certainly there is more than an element of this, however the stats show it's significantly more of a problem within that subculture, so as has been said trying to wriggle out of acknowledging that because of some noble but misplaced cultural sensitivity stuff does the victims no good at all and won't help reduce it.

Really? I've just been reading some research that suggests the opposite

The notion that domestic violence is ‘cultural’ for some communities and, therefore, does not warrant a serious response from agencies has been documented as a significant factor placing ethnic minority women at great risk from violent partners or family members (Bograd, 1999; Burman et al, 2004; Donnelly et al, 2005; Sokoloff and Dupont, 2005a, 2005b). In this context, it is noted that when domestic violence is defined as culturally normative, the victimisation of women is denied, and this translates into a failure to recognise the need for intervention strategies (Dasgupta, 2005; Sokoloff and Dupont, 2005a, 2005b; Volpp, 2005). If service providers characterise ethnic minority groups as inherently violent, they tend to view intervention efforts as futile (Burman et al, 2004). Stereotypes may also lead professionals to underestimate the impact of abuse on minority women or to overestimate the ability of these women to cope (Donnelly et al, 2005). Furthermore, the internalisation of stereotypes may contribute to some minority women not perceiving themselves as victims of abuse or as being in need of help (Nash, 2005

mackg

mango salsa wrote: »

Really? I've just been reading some research that suggests the opposite

That isn't really the opposite though. He didn't say because it's cultural it should be left alone, just that it's cultural.

Annasopra

mackg wrote: »

That isn't really the opposite though. He didn't say because it's cultural it should be left alone, just that it's cultural.

I'm not sure if you read what I responded to

Wibbs

Where did I suggest this "The notion that domestic violence is ‘cultural’ for some communities and, therefore, does not warrant a serious response from agencies" was any part of the solution? Of course it warrants a serious response regardless of the victims origins. These are two separate issues. As Monty Burnz suggested you're valiantly ignoring realities in an attempt at some sort of moral equivalence. wonderfulname's post which you thanked plugs into this. "Ah sure we're all beating our spouses it's not just group X". Well the facts are wider Irish society(including those of a similar socioeconomic background) do not abuse spouses to nearly the same degree. It might be an uncomfortable or an "offensive" fact for you, but it's a fact nonetheless.

mackg

Wibbs wrote: »

Certainly there is more than an element of this, however the stats show it's significantly more of a problem within that subculture, so as has been said trying to wriggle out of acknowledging that because of some noble but misplaced cultural sensitivity stuff does the victims no good at all and won't help reduce it.

mango salsa wrote: »

I'm not sure if you read what I responded to

That post? Maybe it's a comprehension fail on my part, fill me in?

EDIT:

Where did I suggest this "The notion that domestic violence is ‘cultural’ for some communities and, therefore, does not warrant a serious response from agencies" was any part of the solution? Of course it warrants a serious response regardless of the victims origins. These are two separate issues.

Yeah I picked it up right.

Wibbs

mackg wrote: »

That post? Maybe it's a comprehension fail on my part, fill me in?

Mango salsa it appears is too busy being offended on behalf of the traveling community to acknowledge it is one aspect of their culture that is actually unpalatable. I'm all for cultural sensitivity and objectivity. It's narrow minded not to be. However it's equally narrow minded to ignore dubious cultural norms for the sake of that sensitivity. Indeed IMHO this sniff of cultural protectionism is actually a bit insulting to any culture it's aimed at.

mackg

Wibbs wrote: »

Mango salsa it appears is too busy being offended on behalf of the traveling community to acknowledge it is one aspect of their culture that is actually unpalatable. I'm all for cultural sensitivity and objectivity. It's narrow minded not to be. However it's equally narrow minded to ignore dubious cultural norms for the sake of that sensitivity. Indeed IMHO this sniff of cultural protectionism is actually a bit insulting to any culture it's aimed at.

I agree, there are always calls for stats to back up the wild claims that are made around here and in this case those stats were presented. The study mango quoted seems to underline the greater need for intervention among the travellers. I think Monty Burns described it well as "throwing the women and children under the bus".

Lollipops23

Wibbs wrote: »

Mango salsa it appears is too busy being offended on behalf of the traveling community to acknowledge it is one aspect of their culture that is actually unpalatable. I'm all for cultural sensitivity and objectivity. It's narrow minded not to be. However it's equally narrow minded to ignore dubious cultural norms for the sake of that sensitivity. Indeed IMHO this sniff of cultural protectionism is actually a bit insulting to any culture it's aimed at.

This Wibbs, is why I think you're my Seamus

I agree, it's actually doing an ethnic minority a dis-service to completely ignore their issues.

RIP to the poor woman, in fairness there's been umpteen cases of domestic violence/murders in the settled community in the last decade, so we can't really talk.

Wibbs

mango salsa wrote: »

Really? I've just been reading some research that suggests the opposite

PS had a read of that UCD study you quoted from. I'd take a few issues with it.

1) the introduction describes Travelers as an "ethnic minority". Maybe the researchers should pop over to the genetics faculty in UCD and ask for a better definition of "ethnic minority". Travelers while most certainly are a cultural minority, describing them as an ethnic minority though currently fashionable is a bit of a stretch. I'm sure with enough red wine on board some could argue rugger buggers are also an ethnic minority. The genetic "differences" trotted out most recently on "blood of the Travelers" are beyond minor, simply stemming from a slightly narrower gene pool than the general population(the commonality of surnames within the community being a bit of a giveaway there Ted). On that basis I'm sure you could find similar in many native Donegal folks with O'Donnell/O'Doherty/O'Neill surnames who were also native Irish speakers, but it sure as hell wouldn't make them an ethnic minority. Travelers are Irish like the rest of the indigenous Irish population.

2)The same study states; "However, while it is not possible to provide accurate prevalence data on the extent of this abuse within the Traveller community, there is no evidence to suggest that it is more or less prevalent than in the community in general". Oh really? Seems they didn't look too hard. The Amen study previously linked(by people at the sharp end of dealing with this) found "49% of admissions to women’s refuges are Travellers (according to the 2002 census Travellers account for just 0.6% of the entire population)" or the UK research into the culture that came up with even higher figures. Maybe they didn't want to look too hard because of this cultural sensitivity stuff. To be frank IMHO that paper is all over the place.

It seems Traveler folks themselves acknowledge it as a problem worth addressing and fair play. This statement from Pavee Point notes among other things that "Research carried out by Tullamore Travellers Movement Research on Domestic Violence and
Traveller Women, in 2007 found that Traveller women were „shocked‟ to discover that emotional
abuse and rape within a marriage constituted domestic abuse". If that's the case and nearly half of admissions to women's refuges are women from the same mindset, how many aren't showing up because they don't even realise that emotional abuse and rape are examples of "real" abuse?

Annasopra

I'm not ignoring the issues or prevalence of domestic violence amongst the travelling community at all and it's completely disingenuous for anyone to suggest that I am.

The research that I pointed to above shows that there are actually a number of inherent dangers with presenting domestic violence in certain communities as 'cultural' because the consequences can be: that agencies often don't respond and see responses as futile.

mackg

mango salsa wrote: »

I'm not ignoring anything. I am stating that it is hugely offensive to generalise about domestic violence in the travelling community and call it a tradition or culture

mango salsa wrote: »

I'm not ignoring the issues or prevalence of domestic violence amongst the travelling community at all and it's completely disingenuous for anyone to suggest that I am.

The research that I pointed to above shows that there are actually a number of inherent dangers with presenting domestic violence in certain communities as 'cultural' because the consequences can be: that agencies often don't respond and see responses as futile.

But surely the better solution is not to simply deny that it is cultural but to ensure that the attitude amongst the relevant agencies changes towards it. By denying it best case is it gets the same attention as everything else, by admitting and tackling the issue it would (hopefully) be prioritised.

demanufactured

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

Wibbs wrote: »

"Roid rage" is in the vast majority of cases a tabloid fantasy, up there with "spiked drinks". Such drugs can cause aggression, but not nearly to the degree some seem to think.

If you watch the documentary "knuckle" you can't help but notice the dramatic change that occurs in the shape of the suspects body. It was clear he was availing of more than a little "extra help" to achieve this. He was a horrible aggressive individual to begin with so I don't think adding steroids to the mix was helpful.

I've known many people to have dabbled with steroids and in general they all experience an increase in aggression levels. From my experience the increase is quite significant.

Which if the brothers is it you are reffering to

tipptom

Ita a very sad that the documetary opens with their wedding with the video of their of the happy time of their wedding day,apperantly the documetary came about from this after her family hired the the film maker for their wedding.It came across to me from the film that the McDonaughs seemed to have a fairly good family life.

Wibbs

mango salsa wrote: »

I'm not ignoring the issues or prevalence of domestic violence amongst the travelling community at all and it's completely disingenuous for anyone to suggest that I am.

Ah so you agree that domestic abuse within the Traveling community runs at a higher proportion than in the wider community? Indeed a much higher proportion? So stating this is more a part of that community and culture isn't actually "hugely offensive"?

The research that I pointed to above shows that there are actually a number of inherent dangers with presenting domestic violence in certain communities as 'cultural' because the consequences can be: that agencies often don't respond and see responses as futile.

Well that "research" has more holes than a colander and has a slant from page one, so you'll pardon me if I take a gimlet eye to it. In any event you're simply moving the goalposts, while busy taking offence on behalf of others.

Another aspect of the unwillingness of some agencies to get involved with this community is that often it is futile and often involvement of outside agencies are rejected, sometimes forcefully by the community itself. There can also be the worry that any such involvement will result in the leveling of racism against such agencies. It's happened before. Unwillingness goes both ways.

Carlos_Ray

demanufactured wrote: »

Which if the brothers is it you are reffering to

The one that likes to bite. Michael.

Qualitymark

Wibbs wrote: »

PS had a read of that UCD study you quoted from. I'd take a few issues with it.

1) the introduction describes Travelers as an "ethnic minority".

I'd completely agree, Wibbs, that the idea of travelling people being an ethnic minority is a bit of a makey-uppy. However, this point doesn't, surely, take from the findings of the study on domestic violence?

(I post on this question reluctantly; it's really inappropriate that a thread on a woman's death should have thread-creeped into a thread on the problem of violence among a group within society, frankly.)

mathepac

The_Minister wrote: »

Anyone else noticing how few thanks the sympathy posts are getting in comparison to normal threads?

I'm a bit puzzled by your post.

Why do you view this thread as being different to "normal threads"? Is it because it deals with violent death in a family or is it because the family concerned happens to be a traveller family?

From my perspective I view it, bans and deleted posts excepted, as being a perfectly normal, respectful thread dealing with a delicate and tragic news item. The OP is a bit unusual but I think in context an appropriate intervention by the mods and for the most part it seems to have worked, my only reservation being about the choice of AH as the home for a topic as sensitive as this.

I'm not sure what significance you attach to the practice of thanking posters but I think it can be a ridiculously mis-used feature, e.g. Dev's announcement of a new skin for boards.ie had, the last time I looked, received in excess of 370 thanks - for what? I'd prefer to see a lot of posts expressing condolences with no thanks rather than a few with dozens of thanks attached, but that's just me.

May the wonderful young woman and mother who died rest in peace, may her children, her family, her friends and community come though this appalling tragedy and continue with their lives as she would have wanted.

Wibbs

Qualitymark wrote: »

I'd completely agree, Wibbs, that the idea of travelling people being an ethnic minority is a bit of a makey-uppy. However, this point doesn't, surely, take from the findings of the study on domestic violence?

The problem QM being the paucity of findings in the study and the inaccuracy of some of it.

(I post on this question reluctantly; it's really inappropriate that a thread on a woman's death should have thread-creeped into a thread on the problem of violence among a group within society, frankly.)

Why? It's not a condolence thread as Super Rush who started the thread said "Ok so we've decided to start a thread for discussion about this terrible incident". We're having a discussion and part of that would include the suggestion that there is some cultural background to domestic abuse, while not suggesting it's exclusively a Traveler problem.

tayto lover

Carlos_Ray wrote: »

The one that likes to bite. Michael.

Commonly known as "Mad Dog".

demanufactured

Ah ok I though ye meant james

tayto lover

Wibbs wrote: »

Certainly there is more than an element of this, however the stats show it's significantly more of a problem within that subculture, so as has been said trying to wriggle out of acknowledging that because of some noble but misplaced cultural sensitivity stuff does the victims no good at all and won't help reduce it.

Here is another interesting item on domestic violence among travellers --
chrome://newtabhttp//www.equalityhumanrights.com/uploaded_files/Wales/domestic_abuse_and_gypsy_travellers.pdf

charlemont

The poor woman was the same age as me, RIP.

Rochelle

charlemont wrote: »

The poor woman was the same age as me, RIP.

Like a lot of people my age, I'm 34.

KeithM89_old

Mod:
A whole load of posts have been removed, unless a claim can be backed up with a source, it will be considered specualtion and removed.

girl in the striped socks

I've read all of this thread & I'm a little bit disgusted by how it's become about domestic abuse of a settled person vs a traveller.

Whatever happened there's kids without their mother. I think that poor woman & her family deserve a bit of respect right now.

Domestic abuse is a serious, serious issue that affects many people from many different backgrounds. I just don't think this thread is the one to discuss stats on it. Personally I think it's turned into a game of tit for tat. Sad really.

Rip to the deceased & my thoughts are with her family. I hope they will be ok in time.

BlueSmoker

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

I've read all of this thread & I'm a little bit disgusted by how it's become about domestic abuse of a settled person vs a traveller.

Whatever happened there's kids without their mother. I think that poor woman & her family deserve a bit of respect right now.

Domestic abuse is a serious, serious issue that affects many people from many different backgrounds. I just don't think this thread is the one to discuss stats on it. Personally I think it's turned into a game of tit for tat. Sad really.

Rip to the deceased & my thoughts are with her family. I hope they will be ok in time.

I have to agree with this point completely, I couldn't agree with girl in the striped socks more. Trying to make domestic abuse about, your up bringing, it effects every parts of society, and in fairness it unfair to use it as a social political agenda

And this is a very terrifying part of it and I agree RIP to Jacquline and her family, especially her children, my thoughts are with them

Monty Burnz

girl in the striped socks wrote: »

Domestic abuse is a serious, serious issue that affects many people from many different backgrounds. I just don't think this thread is the one to discuss stats on it. Personally I think it's turned into a game of tit for tat. Sad really.

To be honest, I think it's a very opportune time to discuss this when we can clearly see the tragic consequences of not addressing it.

I don't think it's disrespectful to the woman or her children in the slightest, and nobody intends it to be either.

BlueSmoker

Monty Burnz wrote: »

To be honest, I think it's a very opportune time to discuss this when we can clearly see the tragic consequences of not addressing it.

I don't think it's disrespectful to the woman or her children in the slightest, and nobody intends it to be either.

Completely agree, but do we really need to have 2/4 pages arguing whether it is tradition within a particular community. It should be discussed, nothing stopping anyone from starting a new thread to discuss it. My apologies, I find a lot of the posts in this thread, coming close to being their opinion of what has happened, and they seem to like to use their own colouring pencils to paint that picture.

Well I'm sorry a woman just died, from being beaten to death in her own home, with her 3 children in the house. That's what should be discussed, not what social group is open to it, cause it could happen in any part of society, I still think it's another thread topic.

Again my applogies it must be a horrific time for the family, RIP again

face1990

This is a ridiculous thread. The amount of speculation going on is ludicrous. I would go and report the posts but to be honest it's the majority of the posts in the thread.

People trying to work out what age the husband is to see if he might be the culprit, posting statistics on how common wife-beating is in the traveller community. How on earth is any of this relevant, when we have no reason to believe the husband is involved?

And why are those posts still here? On any other thread about a person who's been beaten to death, speculation like that would've been removed, with people complaining that friends and family of the victim could read this thread and find it upsetting.