Are kids really worth all the hassle

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

well im 29, only a few months from thirty and I can safely say I'm never having children (outside of some horrible horrible accident)

im sure I'd love the little parasite if it ended up happening but I just dont want the pressure. If all I have to worry about in my life is me it reduces the level of hassle I'll have to deal with before I die by a large amount. I don't have to make something of myself, I don't have to fight for the best jobs or promotions I just have to find things to occupy my time with and enjoy my life how I want to.

maybe I'll feel different when i'm 55 and childless but that's life and I'm not going to try and spawn just so I don't potentially feel lonely as an older man. There is no right way to live your life, if you're happy more often than not you probably did whatever was right for you. *shrug*

Giselle

branbee wrote: »

I had my daughter when I was 17- obviously she was a 'surprise'. Before I fell pregnant I knew I never wanted kids. Even now I would be happy to admit that if I hadn't had her I would not plan to have kids.
Having said that once they arrive they are not just 'kids', they are the little person you created and as they get older they get their own personalities that you love and they really arent just an endless list of inconveniences!
I completed an honours degree and started an internship in the same field since she was born. I have friends that I talk to regularly and I see them as often as I would if I didn't have a child. So I don't think having a child traps you or puts an end to your life as you know it unless you allow it to.

Well done

seamus

I have a child on the way, and tbh we reckon we're in exactly the right place for it.

We've done the twenties thing of going out at 12pm on Saturday and waking up at 3pm on Sunday afternoon with the vaguest memories of the previous twelve hours. We've done the going off on holidays and sitting around doing nothing thing. We've spent inordinate amounts of time sitting on the sofa watching TV just because we had free time and no obligation.
We could probably have done more international travelling. But then you don't have to be young to do that, and we're not big travellers. I don't feel any loss by not having gone to Oz or Thailand. I'd rather do that when I'm 50 and flush with cash than at 20 and slumming it in hostels tbh.

I honestly don't feel like I'll be losing a lot. Some sleep, and the odd time I'll have to turn down an invite to the pub on a Friday night. Boo-hoo.

Chances are I'll actually have a better social life because saying "Ah fnck it" and sitting on my ass watching TV on a Saturday afternoon will no longer be an option.

There's a lot of martyrdom about kids. People whinging about how hard they have it. Then they go and have more kids. That's when you know they're just being whingey fnckers trying to out-hardship everyone else.

Sappa

I reckon your either cut out for kids or your not it's very simple.
Some people yearn to be parents,I am happier with just my wife and our dog in our lives.
I know many couples who never had children and they have very exciting lives,it's insulting to say it's a bit sad if someone in there 40s is having a good time out at the weekend and childless.
Each to there own but you either feel that need to have a child which I never had or you just never think about it and are happy to keep things as they are.

floggg

SafeSurfer wrote: »

Looks like a thinly disguised "I didn't have sex threads".

Not since Tuesday night, no

anncoates

floggg wrote: »

So growing up as a kid,

As opposed to...

My kids are worth it to me and even though it's really hard sometimes, I could never be without them now. That said, I made sure to have them later in life so I could live a little before.

floggg

summerskin wrote: »

Lots of 16-25 year olds in this thread. 90% of them will have kids, 99% will settle down with someone, and none will remember the nonsense they are sprouting on here.

When I was 19 i had all the same views. I was never going to be settled down, I was going to travel the world and be a free sprit, never having kids.

20 years later and I'm in love with my wife and two children. Your life changes as you grow older and so do your priorities, it's folly to think otherwise.

I'm 27, and starting to feel like I don't want any. When I was younger, I always just assumed it would happen, and I think I would make a good Dad if it did.

In my case, being gay, a lot more thought and effort would have to go into it than for most, but I would be willing to go through that no problem if I thought it was something I really wanted and that I good offer a good home to a child.

At first I didn't want to be gay because I wanted a normal family. Now though, as I get older, and now that the prospect of marriage equality is getting closer and closer, I've started to question is it something I actually really want, or was it just a case of buying into society's hype that having kids is the be all and end all of our lives.

seamus

Sappa wrote: »

I know many couples who never had children and they have very exciting lives,it's insulting to say it's a bit sad if someone in there 40s is having a good time out at the weekend and childless.

Actually, I would be of the opposite opinion. If you don't have children and your life isn't a constant party, then that's just sad. What's the point in working a 9 to 5 job and living a dull existence, only to die at the end of it. At least people with children can say they're working for their children.

But if you're childless, then throw caution to the wind, take the low-paying but really fun job and blow all your money on frivilous things. Why waste your time being frugal and sensible - you're going to die anyway!

anncoates

Don't get the negativity about having kids to stave off loneliness. Fair enough, it's wrong if you have kids you don;t want or love but if you like the feeling of being surrounded by family and friends in life, a family perpetuates that.

It can be lonely later in life without family although some people are fine with that and more power to them.

Mr Benevolent

OP, are you male or female? If you're male and single you don't have the option to start a family anyway.

anncoates

seamus wrote: »

I have a child on the way,

seamus wrote: »

There's a lot of martyrdom about kids. People whinging about how hard they have it. .

lol

seamus

anncoates wrote: »

lol

...did I whinge about it?

smash

floggg wrote: »

Lately though, I've been looking around at friends and colleagues starting families, and I'm starting to think to myself - being a parent looks like a load of ****e!

You only see snippets of their life, not the full story.

Mr Benevolent

seamus wrote: »

Actually, I would be of the opposite opinion. If you don't have children and your life isn't a constant party, then that's just sad.

WTF? You're watching far too many road trip movies. Or was that remark directed at single people? I have a girlfriend and a place to live and I love my life and my girlfriend. I hate parties and I don't have kids. Life is great.

On kids, I have a 18 month old niece and she's great, but we won't be having kids for a while yet.

Abi

floggg wrote: »

So, are they really worth all the crap that goes with them?

I'll put it this way, you're not likely to find parents in this thread with any regrets.

anncoates

seamus wrote: »

...did I whinge about it?

I wasn't implying that.

I was just saying that when you have one you'll see that kids are bloody hard work.

Not so hard that people should necessarily be always looking for kudos for something they elected to do, I admit.

seamus

anncoates wrote: »

I was just saying that when you have one you'll see that kids are bloody hard work.

It's OK, I have enough nieces and nephews to know that they are hard work. But not so hard that you need to go on and on about it. Your life doesn't stop, it changes.

anncoates

seamus wrote: »

It's OK, I have enough nieces and nephews to know that they are hard work. But not so hard that you need to go on and on about it. Your life doesn't stop, it changes.

That said, I have so much sympathy for people that raise children alone. It must be incredibly hard.

poldebruin

Abi wrote: »

I'll put it this way, you're not likely to find parents in this thread with any regrets.

I have two young kids now and I do have regrets, but only insofar as I didn't have them a little earlier in life.

I'm 38 now, and did enjoy my 20's and early 30's. When I was younger I didn't know what I wanted with regard to having kids and a family.

As you get older, I suppose priorities change - the urge to go to the pub or club dwindled naturally before I had kids. It was replaced with other social activities though - the idea that your social life dissappears is a nonsense. Someone elase mentioned that this is only hr case if you allow it to be.

Reading through the thread there seems to be a common misconception (speaking for myself) that any kid you have will be just like the other kids that you see, with their annoyances, talking too much, being a hassle etc. The difference is when it is your kid, you don't find these things annoying, but endearing - I like when my little one tells me about her toy horses hooves, wiping his snot and dribble or his bum. It's completely different when it is someone else's kid - even a niece or nephew (dare I say it!)

It's not all sweetness and light - far from it, it's tough work and the biggest commitment in your life, it brings stress and pressure that I never felt before children - but these things are all acceptable, and more than worth it imo.

branbee

Abi wrote: »

floggg wrote: »

So, are they really worth all the crap that goes with them?

I'll put it this way, you're not likely to find parents in this thread with any regrets.

Is that down to them just not wanting to admit it though?
Not saying it is I just know that people always say to me 'I know you wouldn't change her for the world' etc. I've never once said this to anyone though, they just assume its how I should feel. They're right in my case but I don't believe every parent feels the same way.

granturismo

xDramaxQueenx wrote: »

no, wiping someone elses ass? no thankss.

Who will wipe your ass or pay for someone to do it when you get old? Thats what kids are for.

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar

Abi wrote: »

I'll put it this way, you're not likely to find parents in this thread with any regrets.

you're not likely to find many parents who will admit publically to regretting having children

anncoates

It's human nature to miss the shit out of the things that kids restrict: spare time, socializing and lack of responsibility, but I still wouldn't change my kids for the world.

Nymeria

You're never going to get a proper answer on this subject OP, it's too subjective. The people who have or want children can't understand those who don't and the people who don't have and don't want can't understand those that do.

I don't hate kids, I just have no maternal desire whatsoever. I'm 28, and now more than ever I know that having and raising children would not make me happy. I am planning to get sterilised for my 30th birthday present to myself . Its quite funny when people say 'oh you will regret it later in life'...that can be applied to most choices we make! In life there will always be the other choice that you didn't make, its not fruitful to dwell on this. And besides, could you imagine going up to a parent of young children and saying 'don't worry, you'll change your mind about them later' :eek:.

I have 3 nephews and a niece who I spend quite a bit of time with, collecting from school, making lunch with, doing homework, taking them for days out etc. While thats not the same as a full time parent it allows me to enjoy them in small doses, which is all I can handle. I'm looking forward to getting to know them as adults and building a hopefully rewarding relationship.

Not having children doesn't mean I plan to party every night and end up a crazy clubbing alcoholic. I have plans for my future that include travel and adventure and further education, but in reality people who have children can achieve this also.

I think to say that a persons life can be divided up into a; having children or b; having crazy adventures is way too simplistic. There are people who have young children and still get to fulfill other life goals, and there are people without children who are happy to plod along doing the same thing, there is no one size fits all.

I'm looking forward to a time when not having children is more accepted as a valid lifestyle choice and not just something that selfish people who don't really know themselves do - I certainly don't feel that I'm missing out, and if in years to come I regret it (highly doubtful) then its my own fault. Children deserve to be really wanted and loved not just something to be had because people feel they 'should'.

Nymeria

CJC999 wrote: »

I felt the same as you OP all through my 20's and into my early 30's. I now have a 2yr old and another child due any day now. I wouldn't swap them for the world, I would give up absolutely everything for them.

You may feel that way now and it probably means your just not ready to settle down and start a family just yet but more than likely that will change. I couldn't be bothered going out anymore, it's a pain in the hole apart from the obvious expense. Id rather have a few beers at home lying in comfort on the sofa watching tv.

Do you really want to be that sad 40 something still out every night at the weekend trying to pretend your 10yrs younger while all your friends are at home with their families?

Way to generalise that just because you changed your mind that everyone will, not everybody wants to just go along with what everyone else is doing, and not everyone who doesn't have children at 40 will be in the corner of a nightclub desperately clinging to their youth.

Some of us (me) have thought long and hard about the realities of a life without children and concluded that it is the right choice for us.

floggg

Confab wrote: »

OP, are you male or female? If you're male and single you don't have the option to start a family anyway.

Really? I'm male but I'm pretty sure 5 minutes of unprotected "passion" with some drunk young one in coppers could give me a good down payment on one (as long as I hide her passport for 9 months).

I also don't plan on being single for ever.

Abi

poldebruin wrote: »

I have two young kids now and I do have regrets, but only insofar as I didn't have them a little earlier in life.

I see what you're saying, but you wouldn't do without them. You'd merely choose to have them at a different time in your life rather than do without them altogether.

branbee wrote: »

Is that down to them just not wanting to admit it though? ... They're right in my case but I don't believe every parent feels the same way.

Perhaps you are right, maybe it's a case that I just can't comprehend a parent regret having their child / children. It wouldn't be a healthy or happy situation for either the parent or the child(ren).

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

you're not likely to find many parents who will admit publically to regretting having children

Perhaps not to anyone face to face, but on a discussion board where you can post anon, why not?

Cienciano

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

you're not likely to find many parents who will admit publically to regretting having children

I'd say the reason behind that is that there's not many people who regret it. As Abi said, this is a messageboard, 99% of people don't know who everyone is. I can honestly say I don't regret it in the slightest.

splashthecash

floggg wrote: »

So growing up as a kid, it's kind of assumed as inevitable that you will end up starting a family and raising a few sprogs of your own.

Lately though, I've been looking around at friends and colleagues starting families, and I'm starting to think to myself - being a parent looks like a load of ****e!

Seriously, apart from the inexplicable amounts of money they gobble up on you, they completely take over your whole life. You can kiss goodbye to a social life, friends, hobbies etc. You will end up spending most of your time working just so you can support the ingrates, and when you do have time off, it will invariably be spent cleaning up after them, or taking them some place etc.

I'm single and while I am doing ok financially, I'm not exactly flush. But there are plenty of people raising families on my wages. it horrifies me to think what I would have to give up to support another human being or two on my wage. Never mind the socialising and reasonable clothes, i'd be back to my colleg diet of koka noodle sandwiches!

So, are they really worth all the crap that goes with them?

Is there any parents here with buyer's remorse (or a strong grievance with the condom company)?

If your parents read this post they might have buyer's remorse.

Also, you are indirectly referring to yourself in the below..
You will end up spending most of your time working just so you can support the ingrates, and when you do have time off, it will invariably be spent cleaning up after them, or taking them some place etc.

floggg

Nymeria wrote: »

I'm looking forward to a time when not having children is more accepted as a valid lifestyle choice and not just something that selfish people who don't really know themselves do - I certainly don't feel that I'm missing out, and if in years to come I regret it (highly doubtful) then its my own fault. Children deserve to be really wanted and loved not just something to be had because people feel they 'should'.

Well if you get sterilised and regret it, that doesn't mean you still can't have kids. With all the kids in the world without loving homes, I can't think of anything more loving than adoption.

Somebody commented earlier about wanting to continue your genes - that's a dumb reason to have kids. When I die, I'll be dead. I won't know or care what my genes are up to.

When I'm on my death bed though, I think there might be a lot of comfort in knowing a took in somebody tiny and vulnerable and gave them a loving home, an education and a chance in life that the may never have had otherwise.

Plus, with adoption, you get to pick your kid. Which, if you do your background checks thoroughly, can help your chances of raising a premiership footballer to live off in your old age.

****, now I'm leaning towards wanting a kid again

branbee

Cienciano wrote: »

Sir Digby Chicken Caesar wrote: »

you're not likely to find many parents who will admit publically to regretting having children

I'd say the reason behind that is that there's not many people who regret it. As Abi said, this is a messageboard, 99% of people don't know who everyone is. I can honestly say I don't regret it in the slightest.

Maybe cause admitting it to everyone on the internet would mean admitting it to themselves. Its something you're not 'supposed' to feel. And even if it is anon, nobody wants people judging them regardless.
I can honestly say I don't regret having my daughter.
But I can also say if she didn't come along I wouldn't have wanted a child. I dunno if that's the same thing really.
But I do regret having her so young, not for my reasons, but for her.

Although on her first day of school one of the dads did say he was very jealous of my youthful good looks and I made him feel old, so I guess I should be thankful for that!

floggg

splashthecash wrote: »

If your parents read this post they might have buyer's remorse.

Also, you are indirectly referring to yourself in the below..
You will end up spending most of your time working just so you can support the ingrates, and when you do have time off, it will invariably be spent cleaning up after them, or taking them some place etc.

No they wouldn't. What, just because I may not want a kid, I'm not a good person?

They wanted kids, they had five of them. If they hadn't wanted kids, they would have been fully entitled not to have any.

And yea, I am an ingrate. Don't get my wrong, I love my parents, and try to spend as much time with them as I can, and am thankful for all the opportunities they gave me.

But I reckon few if any kids show their parents half as much gratitude as they deserve for all the hard work and sacrifices that goes into raising kids these days.

IvyTheTerrible

granturismo wrote: »

Who will wipe your ass or pay for someone to do it when you get old? Thats what kids are for.

My goodness I hope that's not the reason people have kids! I didn't have my baby so I have someone to look after me, I'll look after myself financially and otherwise thanks very much!

Nymeria wrote: »

You're never going to get a proper answer on this subject OP, it's too subjective. The people who have or want children can't understand those who don't and the people who don't have and don't want can't understand those that do.

I don't agree with this. I've always wanted kids but I completely understand why lots of people don't ever want kids. I really really hate when people say "you don't understand you don't have kids". Really really sweeping statements tbh.

Nymeria wrote: »

I am planning to get sterilised for my 30th birthday present to myself .

In all sincerity, good look finding a practitioner in Ireland who will do that. Extremely difficult (which I find unfair).

Nymeria wrote: »

I think to say that a persons life can be divided up into a; having children or b; having crazy adventures is way too simplistic. There are people who have young children and still get to fulfill other life goals, and there are people without children who are happy to plod along doing the same thing, there is no one size fits all.

Totally agree with this

Nymeria wrote: »

Children deserve to be really wanted and loved not just something to be had because people feel they 'should'.

+1 million

anncoates

That's a novel one that I must try in other discussions.

I believe in opinion A and disagree with opinion B so claim that most people who believe in opinion B are in fact lying because they are secretly afraid to say they actually believe opinion A.

Nymeria

IvyTheTerrible wrote: »

In all sincerity, good look finding a practitioner in Ireland who will do that. Extremely difficult (which I find unfair).

Yeah I've heard some horror stories about GP's refusing people under a certain age or women who don't already have a few children :mad:. Thankfully I'm living in Edinburgh for the next few years, and have looked into the Marie Stopes clinic in the UK. As far as I know they require younger patients to have a few counselling sessions but thats it. It costs about 1500 pounds sterling so I have already started saving

mr kr0nik

starbelgrade wrote: »

I wouldn't swap being a dad for all the money in the world.

Maybe for a lie-in on a Saturday :-)

Melion

I wouldnt swap my daughter for anything in the world. I might not be able to go out drinking anymore, i might not be able to afford trips over to Liverpool anymore but i dont care, getting a hug off her and being told she loves me is better than any night out or football match. A simple thing like the smile on her face when she sees me is enough to make me never ever regret it.

anncoates

Nymeria wrote: »

Yeah I've heard some horror stories about GP's refusing people under a certain age or women who don't already have a few children :mad:.

I doubt it's a big conspiracy. In most cases, at least..

Probably just wary of elective, irreversible medcical procedures at a young age.

westies4ever

I firmly believe that the majority of parents are liars, when they say they wouldnt swop their kids for the world. its usually swiftly followed by them telling me I should have some of my own. They just want everyone to be as miserable as them :P

seamus

westies4ever wrote: »

I firmly believe that the majority of parents are liars, when they say they wouldnt swop their kids for the world.

You're wrong. Wishful thinking on your part.

I wouldn't swap my dog for the world. 10 billion euro? Nope, gimme my doggy,

I've heard plenty of people give plenty of reasons as to why they don't want kids. And I understand them all, I have no issue with them. "I want to spend all my money on me and spend half of my days in my underwear playing computer games and eating pizza" is a perfectly valid reason to not want kids. Being selfish is OK. In fact, if someone is selfish, then they probably should avoid having kids.

What I don't understand is evangelists who seem to think that everyone should have kids and "grow up" or "cop on". It's like telling people they should own a house, and they're just being ridiculous for refusing to buy one.

smash

westies4ever wrote: »

I firmly believe that the majority of parents are liars, when they say they wouldnt swop their kids for the world. its usually swiftly followed by them telling me I should have some of my own. They just want everyone to be as miserable as them :P

If you don't have kids, who gets your beer from the fridge for you?

IvyTheTerrible

seamus wrote: »

It's like telling people they should own a house, and they're just being ridiculous for refusing to buy one.

And look where that got us!

westies4ever

seamus wrote: »

You're wrong. Wishful thinking on your part.

I wouldn't swap my dog for the world. 10 billion euro? Nope, gimme my doggy,

I've heard plenty of people give plenty of reasons as to why they don't want kids. And I understand them all, I have no issue with them. "I want to spend all my money on me and spend half of my days in my underwear playing computer games and eating pizza" is a perfectly valid reason to not want kids. Being selfish is OK. In fact, if someone is selfish, then they probably should avoid having kids.

What I don't understand is evangelists who seem to think that everyone should have kids and "grow up" or "cop on". It's like telling people they should own a house, and they're just being ridiculous for refusing to buy one.

I'm with you on the doggy part!

floggg

seamus wrote: »

I've heard plenty of people give plenty of reasons as to why they don't want kids. And I understand them all, I have no issue with them. "I want to spend all my money on me and spend half of my days in my underwear playing computer games and eating pizza" is a perfectly valid reason to not want kids. Being selfish is OK. In fact, if someone is selfish, then they probably should avoid having kids.

I hope your not trying to suggest that people who may not want kids aren't going to do anything productive with their lives? lots of people may not want them because of the freedom it gives them to achieve other things with their lives, be it travel, education, work, etc.

The lives of many childless people or couples could objectively be viewed as far more purposeful and meaningful than somebody who's greatest achievement is passing on their genes (though equally there are many wonderfully productive parents who contribute to the world).

I also hope it isn't a case that being childless is seen as selfish. I can't see how its any more selfish than having them. Most people (with planned kids) tend to have kids for what the kids can bring into their own lives.

How is that not equally as selfish as somebody who chooses not to because their priorities are elsewhere?

If having children was a selfless act, we would have a lot more people adopting or fostering kids in order to give them a good home. People don't do that, they desire their own kids for whatever reason, and they choose to bring a new life into this world for their own reasons rather than offering a home to an existing child which has a need of one.

Seems kind of selfish to me.

If I do have kids, it will most certainly be by adoption. I could go the surrogacy route etc etc, but why would i go to all that effort when there are kids out there that need a home which i could provide.

IvyTheTerrible

floggg wrote: »

I hope your not trying to suggest that people who may not want kids aren't going to do anything productive with their lives? lots of people may not want them because of the freedom it gives them to achieve other things with their lives, be it travel, education, work, etc.

The lives of many childless people or couples could objectively be viewed as far more purposeful and meaningful than somebody who's greatest achievement is passing on their genes (though equally there are many wonderfully productive parents who contribute to the world).

I also hope it isn't a case that being childless is seen as selfish. I can't see how its any more selfish than having them. Most people (with planned kids) tend to have kids for what the kids can bring into their own lives.

How is that not equally as selfish as somebody who chooses not to because their priorities are elsewhere?

If having children was a selfless act, we would have a lot more people adopting or fostering kids in order to give them a good home. People don't do that, they desire their own kids for whatever reason, and they choose to bring a new life into this world for their own reasons rather than offering a home to an existing child which has a need of one.

Seems kind of selfish to me.

If I do have kids, it will most certainly be by adoption. I could go the surrogacy route etc etc, but why would i go to all that effort when there are kids out there that need a home which i could provide.

I thought Seamus was just commenting on "I'm selfish" as one of the many reasons why people don't have kids, not that everyone who doesn't have kids is selfish, to be fair.

gabsdot40

We adopted our 2 kids so we went to quite a bit of trouble to get them and they were very wanted,
in saying that they wreak my head sometimes. I can't wait for Monday to get them back to school.
But being a parent is great and I think my kids are amazing and I enjoy being with my family more than anything else.
So yes Kids are totally worth it IMO


Plus, with adoption, you get to pick your kid. Which, if you do your background checks thoroughly, can help your chances of raising a premiership footballer to live off in your old age.

This is not true BTW. You can't pick the child you adopt.

seamus

floggg wrote: »

I hope your not trying to suggest that people who may not want kids aren't going to do anything productive with their lives?

No, just giving an example of a reason why someone mightn't want kids. There are literally thousands of them, from genuine fear of childbirth, to idealogical reasons for not bringing another person into the world.

Some people see childlessness as the person just being selfish for not wanting to share their space. Even if that was the case, I see no issue with that.

Leftist

westies4ever wrote: »

I firmly believe that the majority of parents are liars, when they say they wouldnt swop their kids for the world. its usually swiftly followed by them telling me I should have some of my own. They just want everyone to be as miserable as them :P

what a weird pov. There are some seriously braindead posters on this forum.

floggg

gabsdot40 wrote: »

Plus, with adoption, you get to pick your kid. Which, if you do your background checks thoroughly, can help your chances of raising a premiership footballer to live off in your old age.

This is not true BTW. You can't pick the child you adopt.

It was a joke.

Sperm and egg donors are are the way to go if you want a guaranteed champion - though I'm not sure how I would convince Messi and Maradonn's daughter to pony up.

westies4ever

Leftist wrote: »

westies4ever wrote: »

I firmly believe that the majority of parents are liars, when they say they wouldnt swop their kids for the world. its usually swiftly followed by them telling me I should have some of my own. They just want everyone to be as miserable as them :P

what a weird pov. There are some seriously braindead posters on this forum.

Thanks for being insulting - I was joking. I thought this was After hours? Lighten up!