Nelson Mandela terrorist?

Fuinseog

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Nothing exemplifies how vain and delusional the Provos are than when they compare themselves to people like Mandela.

how is that?

are you going to tell us that there was no oppression or discrimination in he north?
Mandela was not entirely a man of peace.

Fenian Army

charlemont wrote: »

Speak for yourself.

Anybody with half a brain would know the damage Partition has caused here.

And still does.

Especially clear when you live in a border county.

Fuinseog

cowzerp wrote: »

History will see them in the same light, Mandela was seen as a terrorist and now as freedom fighter, Ireland been partitioned is ridiculous no matter what way you look at it-Just because the people who consider themselves Irish are not persecuted anymore does not change this.

There is still people who view Mandela as a terrorist, it all depends what view your coming from-When they are all long gone History will write them as Men who stood for a cause, This i have no doubt about.

The 1916 rising soldiers where thought as Terrorists, There considered Heroes by most now.

Adams and Mandela are still alive, I feel Mandela is being peddled as some kind of Gandhi, which he was not. maybe Gerry should lose the accent and the beard and wear colourful shirts like the great Mandela?

--Kaiser--

I can't understand how Mandela is so revered, he was a murderous terrorist. Amnesty International refused to recognise him as a political prisioner as he had commited violent crimes and they were happy that he had a fair trial and a reasonable sentence.

And yet he is frequently mentioned in the same breath as Ghandi....

Fuinseog

lugha wrote: »

The “terrorist” label is irrelevant. The PIRA took it upon themselves to use force on behalf of the Irish people when it was demonstrably obvious that the vast majority of the people did not support this means, even if a majority did support the same ends.

Can make an argument that Nelson Mandela similarly did not have the support of the people he represented?

The PIRA defended their community, when the Irish army and government stood idly by. Thatcher argued that people like Bobby Sands represented nobody but themselves but he somehow got elected.

RubyRoss

The ease with which posters refer to the ‘ethnic cleansing of Catholics’ and the ‘genocide of Protestants’ is alarming if not also embarrassing.

Northern Ireland was not a nice place – people were intimidated from their homes on the grounds of religion and there were laws which discriminated against Catholics AND Presbyterians. However, there is no need to inflate these nasty facts to the status of genocide or ethnic cleansing.

I’m not saying our own nasty history is unworthy of attention because much greater travesties have occurred in the world…history as a game of my calamity trumps your calamity is sad indeed. But those who attempt to elevate distort perspective without which we have no language and no context for examining the terrible deeds of the world.

The Armmenians were systematically targeted by the Turks in a genocide that is not fully recognised. The Serbs attempted to kill Muslim males and rape the women to cleanse a region.
The British rounded up the Mau Mau in concentration camps in the 1950s and tortured the population to suppress a rebellion. Very little attention is given to this.

Fuinseog

--Kaiser-- wrote: »

I can't understand how Mandela is so revered, he was a murderous terrorist. Amnesty International refused to recognise him as a political prisioner as he had commited violent crimes and they were happy that he had a fair trial and a reasonable sentence.

And yet he is frequently mentioned in the same breath as Ghandi....

do you have a source where it states Amnesty did not embrace him? I did a quick search on Mandela on Wikipedia before starting this thread, but I fear I am being denied the full picture.


The reason they didn't let him out is because he refused to forswear the use of violence?

http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~springbk/enemy.html

Son Of A Vidic

Confab wrote: »

No rational person cares about partition in Ireland anymore.

Ironically, no rational person would even make such a sweeping generalisation.

RubyRoss

Fuinseog wrote: »

do you have a source where it states Amnesty did not embrace him? I did a quick search on Mandela on Wikipedia before starting this thread, but I fear I am being denied the full picture.


The reason they didn't let him out is because he refused to forswear the use of violence?

http://www.netcomuk.co.uk/~springbk/enemy.html

Ghandi also advocated non-violence but was pragmatic enough to recognise that violence is sometimes a necessary resort. His comments criticising the European Jews for not violently revolting against oppression exemplify this (somewhat controversially).

It's amazing that Ghandi and Mandela have become these benign saintly figures in Western rhetoric. The west vilified them and then turned them into saints. Mandela for example refused to condemn Gaddafi because the latter had supported him when others did not and (like it or not) Gaddafi did quite a bit for pan-African union.

Fuinseog

i see Mandela got the nobel peace price in 1993. should Gerry adams not also have gotten this award? without himself and SF there would have been no peace process, although they tried to have peace talks without the major player.

Crooked Jack

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Nothing exemplifies how vain and delusional the Provos are than when they compare themselves to people like Mandela.

Jesus, did the Provos start this thread? Or are you just making up ridiculous statements?
Throw us a link to the Provo statement where they compare themselves to Mandela. Thanks

Rascasse

Fuinseog wrote: »

how is that?

are you going to tell us that there was no oppression or discrimination in he north?
Mandela was not entirely a man of peace.

While the north had its very serious problems, the situation in South Africa for the non white population was far, far worse. Unimaginable acts were committed by the apartheid government. While some people on hear like to use terms like ethnic cleansing about the north, I think they should look up the Group Areas act and the land clearances that took place to see what it really means.

Conversely, while the MK did commit bombings they were not anywhere near on the scale of what the paramillitaries got up to in the north. While the government thought nothing

It is also worth noting that while Mandela did help form the MK he wasn't in it for long as after a few years he was on Robben Island.

Of course Mandela has really cemented his place in history for what happened after he was released. From that very day he concerned himself with working for all South Africans. So easily could that country have ended up in civil war, or the whites been pushed out, but thanks to his statesmanship those first 9 years after his release went far better than most observers expected.

Sinn Fein (and the DUP) on the other hand, well, look at the big palava over should one of their officials shake the Queen's hand. Or angry MLA's protesting over "Welcome to Northern Ireland" signs. Or the DUP not sorting out the sodding Orange Order provocation.

Republicans may like to make comparisons between Sinn Fein/IRA and ANC/MK and but I think history will show they have little in common.

Rascasse

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Jesus, did the Provos start this thread? Or are you just making up ridiculous statements?
Throw us a link to the Provo statement where they compare themselves to Mandela. Thanks

The post above yours typifies the sentiment.

Fratton Fred

Fuinseog wrote: »

lugha wrote: »

The “terrorist” label is irrelevant. The PIRA took it upon themselves to use force on behalf of the Irish people when it was demonstrably obvious that the vast majority of the people did not support this means, even if a majority did support the same ends. Can make an argument that Nelson Mandela similarly did not have the support of the people he represented?

The PIRA defended their community, when the Irish army and government stood idly by. Thatcher argued that people like Bobby Sands represented nobody but themselves but he somehow got elected.

If that's all the PIRA did then I'm pretty sure no one would take issue.

Unfortunately they also decided to kill and maim, quite intentionally, scores of innocent men, woman and children. None of which was carried out in defense of anybody's civil rights.

kingtiger

Rascasse wrote: »

While the north had its very serious problems, the situation in South Africa for the non white population was far, far worse. Unimaginable acts were committed by the apartheid government.

oh yeah the poor misunderstood British

hmmm lets see

there's the creation of the "concentration camp" in South Africa during the Second Boer War along with their "Scorched Earth" policy

1919 Amritsar Massacre in India

the Cromwellian "purge" of Ireland

The planning, collusion, and participation in the murder of Irish Catholics

The assault, torture, and murder of civilian prisoners

The supply of weapons, explosives, and intelligence to paramilitary “death squads”

Perjury, and the destruction / fabrication of evidence in order to protect the guilty

yep a lovely bunch of lads

Fuinseog

was apartheid not very much the system of governance in NI until recently?

Fratton Fred

kingtiger wrote: »

Rascasse wrote: »

While the north had its very serious problems, the situation in South Africa for the non white population was far, far worse. Unimaginable acts were committed by the apartheid government.

oh yeah the poor misunderstood British
hmmm lets see
there's the creation of the "concentration camp" in South Africa during the Second Boer War along with their "Scorched Earth" policy
1919 Amritsar Massacre in India
the Cromwellian "purge" of Ireland
The planning, collusion, and participation in the murder of Irish Catholics
The assault, torture, and murder of civilian prisoners The supply of weapons, explosives, and intelligence to paramilitary “death squads”
Perjury, and the destruction / fabrication of evidence in order to protect the guilty
yep a lovely bunch of lads

None of which justifies the murder of one innocent person by an Irish nationalist.

kingtiger

Fratton Fred wrote: »

None of which justifies the murder of one innocent person by an Irish nationalist.

who's justifying anything?

I am just stating fact

ultra_other

One mans freedom fighter another mans terrorist

Irish history is littered with them

lugha

guinnessdrinker wrote: »

but I'm talking about popular support.

gurramok wrote: »

Are the rebels in Libya and Syria terrorists or freedom fighters?

As I said, I steer clear of the “terrorist” label, but also the “freedom fighter” one. The issue is whether their actions in using force are justified. And if they are using force on behalf of a people against the wishes of the people then it is not justified.

leggo wrote: »

You are aware that the 1916 Rising was, essentially, a way of drumming up support for a cause that was seen as more of a nuisance at the time, than anything else, by the majority?

This is precisely the kind of thinking that people like Anders Breivikand Timmy McVeigh used. They believed that violence was needed to force people to appreciate the failings in their countries that only they were gifted enough to see. (Notice my emphasis on thinking, before you come back to compare actions)

floggg wrote: »

When the Troubles began, it wasn't the IRA who initiated violence, or sectarianism. ….

Fuinseog wrote: »

The PIRA defended their community, when the Irish army and government stood idly by.

This would be all grand and hunky dorey if the PIRA restricted their efforts to “defending their community” and achieving an equitable Northern Ireland.

But of course despite the revisionist efforts of republicans, that is simply not true. As Sinn Fein keep telling us, they are an all-Ireland party and PIRA most definitely had an all-Ireland agenda. At one point, they even took to asserting that they were the lawful army and government of Ireland! Nobody in the gallery of rogues that have emerged in recent years comes anywhere close to that level of arrogance.

And while there were deficiencies in democracy in NI, that was certainly not the case in the republic. The people voted, in free and fair elections, overwhelmingly for parties who favoured a united Ireland but who did not endorse violent means to being it about. They were arrogantly and repeatedly dismissed by physical force republicans, whose political representatives got close to zero support here when the finally did start to contest elections.

Fratton Fred

kingtiger wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

None of which justifies the murder of one innocent person by an Irish nationalist.

who's justifying anything?
I am just stating fact

Sounds like you are making excuses for terrorism tbh.

kingtiger

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Sounds like you are making excuses for terrorism tbh.

nope no excuses here, just a cold hard slap of truth

Border-Rat

The same type of people celebrate Collins rounding up Protestant farmers on a scale the Provos never came close to, then boo and hiss Adams.

Pathetic really.

Rascasse

kingtiger wrote: »

oh yeah the poor misunderstood British

hmmm lets see

there's the creation of the "concentration camp" in South Africa during the Second Boer War along with their "Scorched Earth" policy

1919 Amritsar Massacre in India

the Cromwellian "purge" of Ireland

The planning, collusion, and participation in the murder of Irish Catholics

The assault, torture, and murder of civilian prisoners

The supply of weapons, explosives, and intelligence to paramilitary “death squads”

Perjury, and the destruction / fabrication of evidence in order to protect the guilty

yep a lovely bunch of lads

You do realise this is a thread regarding people opinions on Mandela in light peoples opinions of Gerry Adams? Yet you turn up with a load of nonsense about India? Cromwell?

You seem to have done a lot of research about the nasty Brits through history. Maybe use your passion for history to learn about apartheid so you can contribute something worthwhile and relevant to the debate at hand.

Border-Rat

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Sounds like you are making excuses for terrorism tbh.

This is rich coming from you, tac. England averages one war per decade. How many Iraqis died as a result of the 2003 invasion? And to make matters worse, you lot re-elected the man who did it.

sureitsgrand

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Nothing exemplifies how vain and delusional the Provos are than when they compare themselves to people like Mandela.

When I read sentiments like this I wonder if people actually recognise that just like McGuinness and (probably) Adams lovely, cuddly old Mandela also gave the order to injure and kill people in pursuit of a political end.

Now, I'm defo not saying McGuinness and co deserve to be revered, but FFS neither does Mandela. Popular opinion has seemed to swallow hole the narrative of Mandela as peacemaker without shining a light on the fact that because of his orders (and possibly actions, too) some people died.

But of course Mandela looks like a teddy bear and has a funny voice. So it's OK.

Fratton Fred

kingtiger wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Sounds like you are making excuses for terrorism tbh.

nope no excuses here, just a cold hard slap of truth

Then why post it?

I'll answer that for you. You are trying to say the "Brits" deserved it, because of x,y,z.

In the same way, could a Greek plant a bomb in Liffey Valley, kill a few people and shrug it off saying, "bah, the Irish, nice bunch of lads.

Enniskillen, coventry, Guildford, Adare, or Roermond?

I mean, all those murders were done in your name.

floggg

RubyRoss wrote: »

The ease with which posters refer to the ‘ethnic cleansing of Catholics’ and the ‘genocide of Protestants’ is alarming if not also embarrassing.

Northern Ireland was not a nice place – people were intimidated from their homes on the grounds of religion and there were laws which discriminated against Catholics AND Presbyterians. However, there is no need to inflate these nasty facts to the status of genocide or ethnic cleansing.

I’m not saying our own nasty history is unworthy of attention because much greater travesties have occurred in the world…history as a game of my calamity trumps your calamity is sad indeed. But those who attempt to elevate distort perspective without which we have no language and no context for examining the terrible deeds of the world.

The Armmenians were systematically targeted by the Turks in a genocide that is not fully recognised. The Serbs attempted to kill Muslim males and rape the women to cleanse a region.
The British rounded up the Mau Mau in concentration camps in the 1950s and tortured the population to suppress a rebellion. Very little attention is given to this.

It wasn't genocide. That's the mass murder of an ethnic or religious group.

Attempting to drive all members of a particular ethnic or religious group is ethnic cleansing however. How else would you describe an attempt to cleanse an areas of all members of a minority group (religious cleansing maybe).

kingtiger

Rascasse wrote: »

You seem to have done a lot of research about the nasty Brits through history. Maybe use your passion for history to learn about apartheid so you can contribute something worthwhile and relevant to the debate at hand.

having lived for 15 years in Capetown, I think I am well versed in apartheid history buddy

Chuck Stone

Same ol' same ol'.

State violence = legitimate.

Non state violence = not legitimate.

Neat packages for small minds.

Fratton Fred

Border-Rat wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Sounds like you are making excuses for terrorism tbh.

This is rich coming from you, tac. England averages one war per decade. How many Iraqis died as a result of the 2003 invasion? And to make matters worse, you lot re-elected the man who did it.

More excuses for killing children.

And republicans wonder why so many people are embarrassed by them.

Fratton Fred

Chuck Stone wrote: »

Same ol' same ol'.
State violence = legitimate.
Non state violence = not legitimate. Neat packages for small minds.

That sounds like toys being thrown out of a pram.

The right way to look at it is very simple.

Deliberately targeting and killing innocent people is wrong.

kingtiger

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Then why post it?.

just to annoy the likes of you, I have never agreed with killing to achieve a political end

but unlike you I can put myself in Mandela's\Adams shoes, but you just cant do that and refuse to admit that the Catholics in N-Ireland where treated more or less like the Xhosa and Zulu in SA by your own government

in your name

Border-Rat

Fratton Fred wrote: »

More excuses for killing children.

And republicans wonder why so many people are embarrassed by them.

Since you mention killing children, tac;

An example of the character of British people, children murdered by their military in one province, 1970-00;

- Patrick Barnard (13), Dungannon, Co. Tyrone, killed along with James McCaughey (13) and three adult Catholics in British paramilitary car bomb attack.
- Daniel Barrett (15), Ardoyne, Belfast; shot in his home from a nearby BA observation post.
- Martha Campbell (13), Ballymurphy Road, Belfast, shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Michael Patrick Connors (14), Central Belfast, shot along with John Mahon by British soldiers at a checkpoint.
- Patrick Crawford (15), West Belfast, while walking with two others, shot by British soldiers.
- James Cromie (13), Belfast, killed along with fourteen other Catholics by British paramilitary car bomb outside McGurk’s Pub.
- Alphonsus Cunningham (13), West Belfast, during disturbances, run over by a vehicle.
- Manus Deery (15), Derry, shot by army sniper as he brought supper home from nearby shop.
- Bridget Anne Dempsey (10 months), North Belfast, burned to death along with her mother and father when British paramilitary terrorists firebombed their house at night.
- James Doherty (4), West Belfast, shot outside his home.
- Michael Francis Donnelly (14), Silverbridge, Armagh, killed along with two adult Catholics in bomb-and-bullet attack on Donnelly’s Bar; by RUC, UDR and British paramilitary terrorists.
- Brian Duffy (15), North Belfast, in a taxi stand, died along with driver, shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Seamus Duffy (15), North Belfast, shot at close range by RUC rubber bullet.
- Margaret Gargan (13), West Belfast, shot by British soldiers who also shot dead Fr. Noel Fitzpatrick as he gave her Last Rites. The bullet that killed Fr. Fitzpatrick passed through him and also killed Patrick Butler. While trying to drag Fr. Fitzpatrick to safety David McCafferty was also shot dead by the soldiers. (The first priest killed was Fr. Hugh Mullan, West Belfast, shot, twice, by British soldiers as he gave Last Rites to another of their victims. An attempt to drag him to safety ended when Frank Quinn was shot dead by the soldiers.)
- Rosaleen Gavin (8), North Belfast, shot by British soldiers from an observation post.
- Stephen Geddes (10), West Belfast, shot in head at close range by British soldier with rubber bullet.
- Rory Gormley (14), West Belfast, while being driven to school by his father, shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Desmond Healey (14), West Belfast, shot in back by Parachute Reg’t soldier.
- Kevin Heatley (12), Newry, Co. Down, shot by British soldier. Kevin’s father later committed suicide.
- Clare Hughes (4), North Belfast, in blast of British paramilitary car-bomb outside Benny’s Pub.
- Carol Ann Kelly (11), West Belfast, shot in head by British soldier’s rubber bullet as she brought milk home from a nearby shop.
- James Kennedy (15), South Belfast, killed, along with four Catholic adults, in British paramilitary gun attack on betting shop.
- Julia Livingstone (14), shot in head at close range by a rubber bullet gun mounted on a British armored vehicle.
- Eileen Mackin (14), West Belfast, shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Anne Magee (15), North Belfast, while at work in a grocery, shot in face by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Andrew Maguire (6 weeks),
- Joanne Maguire (8) and
- John Maguire (2), West Belfast, all crushed by a car when its driver was shot dead by a British soldier. Their mother later committed suicide.
- Hugh Maguire (9), West Belfast, hit by British armored vehicle.
- Gerald McAuley (15), West Belfast, shot dead along with an adult Catholic, by British paramilitary terrorists who were also burning down the homes of Catholics on Bombay Street and adjacent streets.
- Siobhan McCabe (4), West Belfast, shot near her house by British soldiers.
- David McCafferty (14), West Belfast, shot by British soldiers while trying to drag to safety Fr. Fitzpatrick who the soldiers had just shot.
- James Francis McCaughey (13), Dungannon, Co. Tyrone, killed in street along with his friend, Patrick Barnard (13).
- David McClenaghan (15), North Belfast, at night in his home, shot by British paramilitary terrorists who also raped his widowed mother.
- Stephen McConomy (11), Derry, shot in head by plastic bullet fired from a nearby armored vehicle.
- Anthony McDowell (12), North Belfast, while a passenger in a car, attributed to Parachute Reg’t soldiers who deny it.
- Annette McGavigan (14), Derry, shot by British soldiers.
- Joseph McGuinness (13), North Belfast, walking with friends to a fish and chip shop, shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Maria McGurk (14), North Belfast, daughter of owner of McGurk’s Bar, killed along with fourteen others by British paramilitary terrorist bomb attack on the bar.
- Geraldine McKeown (14), North Belfast, shot through her window by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Kevin McMenamin (10), West Belfast, in blast of a bomb placed by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Carol McMenamy (15), North Belfast, shot in head and neck by British paramilitary terrorists in front of her cousin’s house. Her brother and cousin were murdered earlier.
- Darren Murray (12), Portadown, Co. Armagh, chased by British paramilitary terrorists into traffic where a car killed him.
- Anne Marie O’Brien (5 months), along with their mother, Anna, and father, John, among the thirty-three killed in the car-bomb blasts of 17May74 in Dublin and Monaghan streets placed by BA/RUC/”The Jackal.”
- Michelle O’Connor (3), South Belfast, killed by a bomb attached to her father’s car by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Majella O’Hare (12), Whitecross, Co. Armagh, on way, with friends, to Confession, shot by 3 Parachute Reg’t soldier.
- Geraldine O’Reilly (14), Belturbet, Co. Cavan, while walking with her boyfriend, Patrick Stanley, outside Belturbet Post Office, killed by British paramilitary car-bomb.
- Sean O’Riordan (13), West Belfast, shot in back of head by British soldier.
- Michelle Osborne (13), Hannahstown, Co. Antrim, killed by British paramilitary terror bomb placed in Ballymacaward Kennel Club.
- Richard Quinn (10),
- Mark Quinn (9) and
- Jason Quinn (8), Ballymoney, Co. Antrim, burned to death by British paramilitary terrorists who fire-bombed them in their beds. Their mother had tried to protect them from just such Anti-Catholic attacks by raising them as Protestants; but they were deemed Catholic enough to merit death.
- Philip Rafferty (14), South Belfast, abducted from near his home and shot by British paramilitary terrorists.
- Patrick Rooney (9), West Belfast, while in bed, shot by RUC machine gun through wall.
- Francis Rowntree (11), West Belfast, shot in the head at close range by British soldiers.
- Michael Scott (10), North Belfast, while visiting his grandmother, burned to death along with her when British paramilitary terrorists firebombed her house.
- Brian Stewart (13), West Belfast, shot in head by plastic bullet at close range by British soldier.
- Paula Stronge (6), North Belfast, while playing in street, killed along with four-year-old Clair Hughes, in British paramilitary bombing of Benny’s Bar.
- James Templeton (15), South Belfast, while walking in front of Catholic bar that British paramilitary terrorists shot up after it was opened following an earlier British paramilitary bombing that killed eight adults.
- Peter Joseph Watterson (15), West Belfast, in front of his mother’s shop, shot in back by British paramilitary terrorists from passing car.
-Paul Whitters (15), Derry, shot at close range by RUC plastic bullet.

If thats not enough, in the book 'Killing for Britain' a former member of the UVF boasts (Well, to be fair he says the book is his way of cleaning his soul) that the British military would take weapons from Provo arms caches, shoot children, return the weapons, then use the ballistics reports to create stories of the Provos accidentally shooting Nationalist children.

How many died in the Irish famine. Better yet, how many died in (both) Indian famines? Does your Country have no shame? 1,200,000 dead Iraqis with a 600% rise in infantile cancer there, and you are bald-faced enough to whine about Enniskillen.

Rascasse

kingtiger wrote: »

having lived for 15 years in Capetown, I think I am well versed in apartheid history buddy

And I lived in Johannesburg so we both have good knowledge of the atrocities down there. Begs the question, why go off on one about the Brits at me rather than the Apartheid regime? At least it would have been relevant.

The clearance of coloureds from District 6 and dumping them on the Cape Flats is one of the most obvious crimes commited by the government in Cape Town, yet you chose to bring up the British concentration camps and scortched earth during the second Boer war? Bizarre.

Crooked Jack

Fratton Fred wrote: »

More excuses for killing children.

And republicans wonder why so many people are embarrassed by them.

Oh my God, could you be any more hysterical?
If you have a problem with the use of violence, fine, it's a very valid position.
But for the love of God have a proper discussion on it, dont come out with this emotive crap.
It was a hugely complex conflict with its origins going back centuries, you do yourself and your argument a disservice when you try to label one side as blood thirsty baby-killers.
Think you can steady yourself for an intelligent response or am i about the be hit with a barrage of whataboutery

Fratton Fred

kingtiger wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Then why post it?.

just to annoy the likes of you, I have never agreed with killing to achieve a political end
but unlike you I can put myself in Mandela's\Adams shoes, but you just cant do that and refuse to admit that the Catholics in N-Ireland where treated more or less like the Xhosa and Zulu in SA by your own government
in your name

So trolling then?

I accept that the nationalists in NI were treated badly, I know plenty who got away by moving to England.

Not one of them would ever ever try and justify the killing of innocent people.

kingtiger

Rascasse wrote: »

The clearance of coloureds from District 6 and dumping them on the Cape Flats is one of the most obvious crimes commited by the government in Cape Town, yet you chose to bring up the British concentration camps and scortched earth during the second Boer war? Bizarre.

as per my post above to the British apologist

also just for the craic to get a reaction as this forum isn't a serious place for any sort of debate

Fratton Fred

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

More excuses for killing children.
And republicans wonder why so many people are embarrassed by them.

Oh my God, could you be any more hysterical?
If you have a problem with the use of violence, fine, it's a very valid position.
But for the love of God have a proper discussion on it, dont come out with this emotive crap. It was a hugely complex conflict with its origins going back centuries, you do yourself and your argument a disservice when you try to label one side as blood thirsty baby-killers.
Think you can steady yourself for an intelligent response or am i about the be hit with a barrage of whataboutery

It's fairly simple in my book. If the PIRA had stuck to what they claimed and targeted military or political targets then they could claim to be freedom fighters, but a big part of their campaign was against civilians, which is terrorism.

kingtiger

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So trolling then?

I accept that the nationalists in NI were treated badly, I know plenty who got away by moving to England.

Not one of them would ever ever try and justify the killing of innocent people.

once again who is justifying I am just saying I can put myself in their shoes for a few moments, but I never have

so what's your stance on the killing of hundreds of innocent Iraqi's by your governments troops

Fratton Fred

kingtiger wrote: »

Fratton Fred wrote: »

So trolling then?
I accept that the nationalists in NI were treated badly, I know plenty who got away by moving to England.
Not one of them would ever ever try and justify the killing of innocent people.

once again who is justifying I am just saying I can put myself in their shoes for a few moments, but I never have
so what's your stance on the killing of hundreds of innocent Iraqi's by your governments troops

My stance is that it is irrelevant to the thread.

Border-Rat

kingtiger wrote: »

once again who is justifying I am just saying I can put myself in their shoes for a few moments, but I never have

so what's your stance on the killing of hundreds of innocent Iraqi's by your governments troops

People like him/they consider themselves so exceptional that one 'pocket atrocity' against them, is worse than themselves instigating famines, invasions and firebombings of hospital cities resulting in millions of civilian dead. They're genuinely indifferent to the latter and genuinely aggrieved over the former!

Its shocking.

Border-Rat

Fratton Fred wrote: »

My stance is that it is irrelevant to the thread.

Pathetic cop out. You have no conviction. By the way...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80538602&postcount=85

Fenian Army

Border-Rat wrote: »

Pathetic cop out. You have no conviction. By the way...

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=80538602&postcount=85

http://www.britisharmykillings.org.uk/

kingtiger

Fratton Fred wrote: »

My stance is that it is irrelevant to the thread.

its easy to come on and roar and shout about atrocities committed by foreign terrorists, but when the truth hits home the same old reply

"I choose not to answer"

Fratton Fred

Did the MK kill any civilians in its initial 1960s campaign, or was it only after Mandela was imprisoned that they carried out attacks on innocent people?

I can't seem to confirm it either way.

Chuck Stone

Fratton Fred wrote: »

Deliberately targeting and killing innocent people is wrong.

You don't say?

Border-Rat

Evidently some cultures/communities/peoples engage in 'wrong' doing more than others, yet feel entitled to lecture people with a comparatively massively cleaner history.

Its like a serial rapist coming into the house of a bread-thief and crying foul. Utterly laughable.

Fratton Fred

Border-Rat wrote: »

Evidently some cultures/communities/peoples engage in 'wrong' doing more than others, yet feel entitled to lecture people with a comparatively massively cleaner history.
Its like a serial rapist coming into the house of a bread-thief and crying foul. Utterly laughable.

Are you accusing me of being a serial rapist?

LordSutch

On a lighter note, does anyone else remember this . . . .