Should Cup Winners Get a CL Place?

geeky

I've long been pondering an idea that would, I reckon, improve European football, domestic leagues and domestic cups to boot.

See, the 'Champions League' for me is about champions. The winners. Not the teams who reliably come 3rd or 4th in the EPL.

So why not take a few of the spots in domestic leagues and give them to the winners of the cup competitions?

For example, in England, where they have 4 places: You can give one group stage spot to the league winners, another to the FA Cup winners, a qualifying round place to the second spot, and the earlier qualifying round place to the league cup winners.

At a stroke, you've ensured that some different teams are competing every year. And you've suddenly created a really glittering prize for every participant in cup competitions.

The one argument against the idea that I can see is that several big clubs, who are always competitive but never win, will crib and moan about it. But is there any other reason why UEFA shouldn't adopt this policy?

GavRedKing

geeky wrote: »

I've long been pondering an idea that would, I reckon, improve European football, domestic leagues and domestic cups to boot.

See, the 'Champions League' for me is about champions. The winners. Not the teams who reliably come 3rd or 4th in the EPL.

So why not take a few of the spots in domestic leagues and give them to the winners of the cup competitions?

For example, in England, where they have 4 places: You can give one group stage spot to the league winners, another to the FA Cup winners, a qualifying round place to the second spot, and the earlier qualifying round place to the league cup winners.

At a stroke, you've ensured that some different teams are competing every year. And you've suddenly created a really glittering prize for every participant in cup competitions.

The one argument against the idea that I can see is that several big clubs, who are always competitive but never win, will crib and moan about it. But is there any other reason why UEFA shouldn't adopt this policy?

I stand to be corrected but AFAIK UEFA give the English FA 4 invites to the UCL and its upto the English FA to decide how to distribute those invites, hence the " top 4 ".

I could be wrong but I think I seen this printed somewhere.

GavRedKing

Just seen this.

UEFA president Michel Platini, had proposed taking one place from the top three leagues and allocating it to that nation's cup winners. This proposal was rejected in a vote at a UEFA Strategy Council meeting.

ArmaniJeanss

geeky wrote: »

I've long been pondering an idea that would, I reckon, improve European football, domestic leagues and domestic cups to boot.

See, the 'Champions League' for me is about champions. The winners. Not the teams who reliably come 3rd or 4th in the EPL.

So why not take a few of the spots in domestic leagues and give them to the winners of the cup competitions?

For example, in England, where they have 4 places: You can give one group stage spot to the league winners, another to the FA Cup winners, a qualifying round place to the second spot, and the earlier qualifying round place to the league cup winners.

At a stroke, you've ensured that some different teams are competing every year. And you've suddenly created a really glittering prize for every participant in cup competitions.

The one argument against the idea that I can see is that several big clubs, who are always competitive but never win, will crib and moan about it. But is there any other reason why UEFA shouldn't adopt this policy?

This has been done to death as a topic, usually around FA Cup quarter final day each year.

But basically its never going to happen, not least because in most countries the domestic Cup has never ever been regarded as of big importance - something nice to win, yeah, but worthy of a place in the biggest competition, not a chance.

slingerz

GavRedKing wrote: »

Just seen this.

Would def enhance the appeal of the FA cup anyway

Paully D

Yes, but there's no chance of it happening.

GavRedKing

slingerz wrote: »

Would def enhance the appeal of the FA cup anyway

It would, but I think only the English harp on about the majesty of the cup and its worth in football terms, its nice to win but still someway behind the EPL and UCL.

Paully D wrote: »

Yes, but there's no chance of it happening.

This, basically. Its a novel idea but its not really going to happen and would dilute the UCL IMO.

Roger Sterling

GavRedKing wrote: »

geeky wrote: »

I've long been pondering an idea that would, I reckon, improve European football, domestic leagues and domestic cups to boot.

See, the 'Champions League' for me is about champions. The winners. Not the teams who reliably come 3rd or 4th in the EPL.

So why not take a few of the spots in domestic leagues and give them to the winners of the cup competitions?

For example, in England, where they have 4 places: You can give one group stage spot to the league winners, another to the FA Cup winners, a qualifying round place to the second spot, and the earlier qualifying round place to the league cup winners.

At a stroke, you've ensured that some different teams are competing every year. And you've suddenly created a really glittering prize for every participant in cup competitions.

The one argument against the idea that I can see is that several big clubs, who are always competitive but never win, will crib and moan about it. But is there any other reason why UEFA shouldn't adopt this policy?

I stand to be corrected but AFAIK UEFA give the English FA 4 invites to the UCL and its upto the English FA to decide how to distribute those invites, hence the " top 4 ".

I could be wrong but I think I seen this printed somewhere.

Yep it explains why Spurs missed out. Its a myth that fourth are guaranteed a CL spot.

dan1895

Champions league should be for champions only. I don't even agree with second place teams been in it. Why would a team like Carlisle Utd or Yeovil be worthy of a place in it if they happened to go on a good cup run? (unlikely I know).

I'd entertain the idea of the Europa League winners being given a place.

Lumbo

They should give a place to the winners of the Europa League. There would be a knock on effect in nations cup competitions for teams trying to qualify through that route.

I'm not sure the FA cup winners should get a place but perhaps a play off v the 4th in the league might be a good idea.

GavRedKing

Roger Sterling wrote: »

Yep it explains why Spurs missed out. Its a myth that fourth are guaranteed a CL spot.

Well Spurs missed out because of Chelsea winning the competition, UEFA when Liverpool won it gave England 5 places to accomdate Liverpool who finsihed 5th but after that the set instone that no one country could have more then 4 teams enter and that on the off chance that a winner came from a country with 4 teams allocated and also maneged to finish outside the top 4 then as winners, they take the place of the 4th place team.

Proper order really but its not going to happen every year.

GavRedKing

rarnes1 wrote: »

I'm not sure the FA cup winners should get a place but perhaps a play off v the 4th in the league might be a good idea.

What if the FA cup winner came from within the top 4? That would mean a playoff would be a non-runner.

Bodhisopha

Europa League winners definitely should.

LuckyLloyd

Bodhisopha wrote: »

Europa League winners definitely should.

Yeah, this is a move UEFA could make itself and help to substantially improve on the importance of its secondary competition.

Leiva

I am a big supporter of a place going to the FA cup winners .

If the cup winners are already in the top 3 then it goes to 4th spot .

Imagine the intensity of an already great competition if not only to you get the cup but a CL spot .

PHB

I think it should be the top 4 in the league.

I think the league is the best test of a team, and the one I want to reward the most. I think Spurs should be in the CL ahead of Chelsea.

I think the CL winners if they don't qualify in the league shouldn't get in.
I think the FA Cup winners should be sent to the Cup Winners Cup, which has been merged to be the UEFA.

The_Kew_Tour

rarnes1 wrote: »

I'm not sure the FA cup winners should get a place but perhaps a play off v the 4th in the league might be a good idea.

I like that idea.

GavRedKing

PHB wrote: »

I think it should be the top 4 in the league.

I think the league is the best test of a team, and the one I want to reward the most. I think Spurs should be in the CL ahead of Chelsea.

I think the CL winners if they don't qualify in the league shouldn't get in.
I think the FA Cup winners should be sent to the Cup Winners Cup, which has been merged to be the UEFA.

The winner should surely get the chance to defend their title.

LuckyLloyd

PHB wrote: »

I think it should be the top 4 in the league.

I think the league is the best test of a team, and the one I want to reward the most. I think Spurs should be in the CL ahead of Chelsea.

I think the CL winners if they don't qualify in the league shouldn't get in.I think the FA Cup winners should be sent to the Cup Winners Cup, which has been merged to be the UEFA.

Should World Cup Winners have to qualify?

There is fairly well established precedent in sport of teams having the ability to defend a trophy by default. Situations where that is not the case are the exception in sports.

dan1895

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Should World Cup Winners have to qualify?

There is fairly well established precedent in sport of teams having the ability to defend a trophy by default. Situations where that is not the case are the exception in sports.

I don't think they should but the rules changed a few years ago so now they do.

I think the previous year's CL winners should be there by default.

The_Kew_Tour

The_Kew_Tour wrote: »

I like that idea.

It would make the FA cup more competitive from the start and bring alot more value back to it.

leggo

Something will need to be done eventually, and this seems the most workable option.

Look at the Premiership, for example. The likes of Arsenal now exist with the sole aim of getting that 4th spot. With football being more of a business than ever, substantial, workable business plans are the status quo as opposed to actually competing and striving to better yourself. So Arsenal will be happy to remain a 4th place team for as long as they can do so. Their owners have no incentive to strive to make them any better, and won't supply any potential manager with the resources to do so. Their goal will just be to do the exact same as the season beforehand and keep the income from the Champions League trickling in.

That's not football, that's all about industry IMO and anti-sport.

At least if you were to make it a Top 3 + cup winners deal, the Top 3 would often be competitive for up to 30 matches of the season.

Then giving a Europa League place to the League Cup winners/runners-up would actually make that competition mean something again.

In fact, they may as well just give those spots away for random achievements rather than league positions, achievements that make the sport better: most goals scored, best Fair Play side in each league, sure have the public vote on a side to get in the Europa League each year (Blackpool would've gotten in on this basis a couple of years back). If you're gonna have a pointless European competition, you may as well make it fun.

astrofool

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Should World Cup Winners have to qualify?

They currently do?

ArmaniJeanss

rarnes1 wrote: »

It would make the FA cup more competitive from the start and bring alot more value back to it.

I don't get why UEFA should be expected to change their rules because of whatever identity problems England are having with their own domestic cup competition, especially when most other European countries see their own domestic cup competition as little more than a novelty event.

Gringo180

Champions league is a ridiculous name for the European cup. In my opinion if you are going to name it that well then at least make sure every team in the competition is a champion in there own country, including domestic cup winners.

LuckyLloyd

astrofool wrote: »

They currently do?

Was that always the case?

Seems ridiculous!

G.K.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Was that always the case?

Seems ridiculous!

I think it went that way after 2006.

Roger Sterling

GavRedKing wrote: »

Roger Sterling wrote: »

Yep it explains why Spurs missed out. Its a myth that fourth are guaranteed a CL spot.

Well Spurs missed out because of Chelsea winning the competition, UEFA when Liverpool won it gave England 5 places to accomdate Liverpool who finsihed 5th but after that the set instone that no one country could have more then 4 teams enter and that on the off chance that a winner came from a country with 4 teams allocated and also maneged to finish outside the top 4 then as winners, they take the place of the 4th place team.

Proper order really but its not going to happen every year.

Thsts what I mean. 4 Englush vlubs are allocated spots but nit necessarily yhe top 4. The european champs have to be one of those clubs regardless of where they finidh in the table.

ArmaniJeanss

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Was that always the case?

Seems ridiculous!

Blatter spun it as being an advantage for the holders
http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/football/world_cup_2002/1684214.stm

citytillidie

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Was that always the case?

Seems ridiculous!

Been like that since after the 1998 World Cup, when France were stung on their 1st game at the 2002 World Cup, it was then changed so the holders had to Quailfy

ArmaniJeanss

ArmaniJeanss wrote: »

I don't get why UEFA should be expected to change their rules because of whatever identity problems England are having with their own domestic cup competition, especially when most other European countries see their own domestic cup competition as little more than a novelty event.

Who said anything about Uefa changing rules?

Just making a point.

CSF

As alot of people have said, should happen, but won't. The current situation makes coming 4th better than the FA Cup, which shouldn't be the case. Finishing the FA Cup should be better than coming 2nd in the league.

kitakyushu

Gringo180 wrote: »

Champions league is a ridiculous name for the European cup. In my opinion if you are going to name it that well then at least make sure every team in the competition is a champion in there own country, including domestic cup winners.

Calling it the CL is just the nature of the beast I suppose? I mean the "National Basketball association" and the "National Hockey League" have teams from both the USA and Canada so it's hardly a correct designation either. They're just catchy names that have captured the public imagination and I guess that is more important to those who decide on such matters rather than whether the names are factually accurate.

==

Back Regarding the topic, a place for FA Cup winners would of course increase the profile of that competition. However, I'd personally keep the places for league position tho as I think that's the only real way to gauge who the best clubs in a particular country are.

Besides, if a place was given for FA Cup I reckon you'd just see the top 4 (or whatever it is nowadays) upping their level of seriousness and monopolising the FA Cup too, so the smaller clubs would get frozen out of that competition too I reckon. So if anyone was seeing this as a way for a smaller Prem club to get CL experience I'm sure that door would be closed shut fairly quickly too.

Kidchameleon

They really really need to give a CL group stage spot to the Europa league winners. The Europa league would instantly improve.