Kirwan(Menlo Park) Roundabout Plans on public display-another slap to residents.

Unrealistic

Did anyone go to the meeting last night? (I couldn't make it.)

what_traffic

• Great attendance from the Community 100+
• 7 Cllr's and the Mayor
• Director of Services Ciarain Hayes and Senior Engineer Joe Tansey from the City Council
• Ex President of NUIG Dr Iognaid O Muircheartaigh was the chair.

Same plans as was rolled out the last time i.e the plans that antoobrien has posted in the thread recently.
Residents need to get two Cllr's from the original 9 who voted in favour to change their minds. Last vote was 9-6 in favour.

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

Same plans as was rolled out the last time

Was it just the plans that have been printed in the paper, were there more detailed plans or any of the alternatives that were discussed earlier in the year?

what_traffic

Yup - exact same.
Council officials where using same arguments as before.
No other plans where on the table.

One thing to note - owner of the Menlo Hotel was in attendance; he has stated that he will not sell the land for the new access road to be built. So it will have to be CPO'd if these plans are to go ahead.

antoobrien

what_traffic wrote: »

Yup - exact same.
Council officials where using same arguments as before.
No other plans where on the table.

One thing to note - owner of the Menlo Hotel was in attendance; he has stated that he will not sell the land for the new access road to be built. So it will have to be CPO'd if these plans are to go ahead.

Cheers

Years of court cases trying to CPO the land.

what_traffic

Cllrs that where in attendance:

• Cllr. Tom Costello (Galway City East)
• Cllr. Michael J Crowe (Galway City East)
• Cllr. Frank Fahy (Galway City East)
• Cllr. Nuala Nolan (Galway City East)
• Cllr. Pádraig Conneely (Galway City Central)
• Cllr. Catherine Connolly (Galway City West)
• Cllr. Hildegarde Naughton (Galway City West)

• 
  Mayor Cllr. Terry O'Flaherty (Galway City East)

Iwannahurl

Did Iggy do a good job of chairing?

Good idea to have an independent chair. Independent of the Council, at any rate. I didn't think having the Director of Services chairing the meeting, as happened previously, was a good idea.

what_traffic

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Did Iggy do a good job of chairing?

Good idea to have an independent chair. Independent of the Council, at any rate. I didn't think having the Director of Services chairing the meeting, as happened previously, was a good idea.

He did do a good job from what I saw - but I did miss the first 30min. Agree re chair should be independent.

galwaycyclist

Iwannahurl wrote: »

Did Iggy do a good job of chairing?

Good idea to have an independent chair. Independent of the Council, at any rate. I didn't think having the Director of Services chairing the meeting, as happened previously, was a good idea.

I thought he did a good job all things considered however I felt the format was flawed because the way it was done Ciaran Hayes and Joe Tansey got to have the last word on the issues that were raised.

The format was

* Joe T presents scheme
* Concerned residents raised concerns
* Ciaran Hayes and Joe Tansey provide responses.

This is not materially different to how they conduct other council meetings. Really there needs to be right of reply to their claims.

So for instance on the fact that they are using slip roads that are inherently dangerous for cyclists they declined to acknowledge the issue but skirted around it by saying that they have an "independent" safety audit.

The reply to this is

1) The council officials are the ones paying for the safety audit
2) The firm doing the "safety audit" on one scheme will be doing the "design work" on the next scheme - so there is the whiff of a cosy circular arrangement.
3) There is cause for huge concern as to the professional understanding of safe or sustainable road design among the Irish Civil engineering profession - including road safety auditors.
4) Many among the Irish Civil Engineering profession - including road safety auditors - have shown themselves to have little understanding of a) cycling b) cycling in traffic c) where and how cycling accidents occur.

snubbleste

Michael Crowe was in favour of the plans but no he is not..why? Votes!

Cllr Michael Crowe (FF), the Chairman of the Transport and Infrastructure Committee, said he was withdrawing his support for the plans after hearing the public opposition at the meeting.

Sponge Bob

The Officials were blown out of the water last night as the councillors unanimously refused to remove the roundabout per their current plan.

http://www.galwaynews.ie/28759-roundabouts-plan-tatters-councillors-vote-against

The variation to the CDP, to allow the construction of a four set signalised junction to replace a five exit roundabout, was unanimously rejected, however, and City Councillors indicated at the meeting that plans for a similar transformation of the five-exit roundabout at Corrib Park (Browne Roundabout) would face similar opposition.

They'll have to go back to the drawing board.

A Liosbaun exit towards the middle of Bothar na dTreabh ( and with the Headford Road converted to a cul de sac between Tirellan and Sandyvale makes the most sense..... to me anyway. Probably take years but what the heck. Another way is across the ESB yard between Sandy Row and the Seán Mulvoy Road seeing as Tesco will have a new exit on the Seán Mulvoy on the other side ....allegedly.

antoobrien

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Another way is across the ESB yard between Sandy Row and the Seán Mulvoy Road seeing as Tesco will have a new exit on the Seán Mulvoy on the other side ....allegedly.

O.t but there's no "allegedly" about it, a LILO (left in left out) is in the plans.

dloob

From the sounds of it they don't plan on going near the drawing board.
It will be left as it is, as the NRA funding is now gone.
Plus once there are long tailbacks to it from every direction the official's can say told you so.

antoobrien

I don't know if these have been posed before (don't remember seeing them) but these are only set of diagrams I have been able to find about the proposals to change the Kirwan RAB

Manager's Report On the Proposed Variation to Galway City Development Plan 2011-2017 in accordance with Section 13 of the Planning and Development Acts 2000-2011

Submissions recieved(looks like scans of photocopies)


There are a few files in the City Development Plant 2011-2017, but no extra details that I have seen (yet, I've only skim read it)

crusher000

Can't understand why they can't use the same system as Briarhill junction. I don't have all the information to hand the council or NRA have but it's the same number of exits and more or less the same design.

Sponge Bob

dloob wrote: »

From the sounds of it they don't plan on going near the drawing board.

They'll have to. The NRA, however, may be cross with them and may refuse to entertain their inevitable request for more funds.

Thanks for the link to the submissions Anto. I thought the Dunnes Submission was utterly damning.

Both Dunnes Stores and O’Connor Sutton Cronin (OCSC) have written to and met with the City Council on a number of occasions in respect of the Béthar na dTreabh (N6) Multi Modal Corridor Improvement Scheme, in particulart to ascertain the impacts of the proposed works on the operation of Dunnes Stores at Terrylands.

Following a meeting with the City Council on 13 July 2012, OCSC requested (by letter dated 16" July 2012) details of the proposed
works at the Kirwan Roundabout and Headford Road were requested. By a second letter dated 28 August 2012, OCSC again requested the same information. It was not until 4 September 2102 that a reply was received from the City Council.

Notwithstanding the excessive delay of over seven weeks, the City Council provided little or none of the requested information and provided no indication of why same was not forthcoming. For the record, we reiterate that the following information is necessary in order that an adequate submission in respect of the City Council's proposals can be made:

• Digital copies (in AutoCAD *.dwg format) of proposed road design proposals, to
include background topographical and Ordnance Survey data, at the following
locations:
• Bodkin Roundabout:
• Headford Road;
• Kirwan Roundabout.
• Conjirmation of the design speed used in respect ofthe scheme;
• Copies of all relevant traffc counts and of any origin-destination surveys;
• Copies of input/output Eles from any Transyt/Vissim/Paramics network and/or
microsimulation models which may have been undertaken in support of the new
road proposals;
• Details of proposed signal timings, staging and offsets.

Dunnes Stores are of the view that they have been treated with complete disregard by the
City Council throughout this process. The fact that the City Council only commissioned
appropriate traffic counts following representations by our clients is but one indication that
the direct and indirect impacts of this scheme have not even been identified by the City
Council never mind been addressed. No consideration has been given to the detrimental
impact these arrangements will have on the commercial viability of the business.

antoobrien

crusher000 wrote: »

Can't understand why they can't use the same system as Briarhill junction. I don't have all the information to hand the council or NRA have but it's the same number of exits and more or less the same design.

Briarhill, Ballybane & Tuam Rd were all 4 exit roundabouts - so they can't use the same plan as this is a 5 exit roundabout.

They're also not trying to turn the 3rd exit into the 2nd exit to facilitate a "straight on" in an attempt to shoehorn in traffic lights.

Finally, there were no exists closed (in this case at the expense of residents) on the other three junctions.

antoobrien

Sponge Bob wrote: »

I thought the Dunnes Submission was utterly damning.

It looks fairly comprehensive all right.

Slightly o.t. but in keeping with the Dunnes report, there's a traffic survey being carried out at the moment on some of junctions on the east side of town. I've spotted/taken notice them at the former Briarhill RAB & the Doughiska RAB. Anybody else spot them?

crusher000

Briar Hill Junction,
1st. coming from city lane to the left to enter Parkmore,
2nd. coming from city 2nd lane to left to go onto carmore.
3rd coming from city lane straight on towards motorway.
4th coming from city lane right onto Dunnes Stores
5th lane if coming from Oranmore/Dublin side straigh onto travel towards City ?

Menlo Junction
1st coming from city exit to Menlo Hotel.
2nd coming from city exit Headford rd
3rd. coming from city exit onto Tuam road.
4th coming from city exit Lisbaun/Motor park exit.
5th lane coming down from Tuam road exit into city

antoobrien

crusher000 wrote: »

Briar Hill Junction,
1st. coming from city lane to the left to enter Parkmore,
2nd. coming from city 2nd lane to left to go onto carmore.
3rd coming from city lane straight on towards motorway.
4th coming from city lane right onto Dunnes Stores
5th lane if coming from Oranmore/Dublin side straigh onto travel towards City ?

Menlo Junction
1st coming from city exit to Menlo Hotel.
2nd coming from city exit Headford rd
3rd. coming from city exit onto Tuam road.
4th coming from city exit Lisbaun/Motor park exit.
5th lane coming down from Tuam road exit into city

It's entrances that's important not lanes.

Briarhill entrances/exits
1) DC out from Mervue
2) Monivea Rd to Carnmore
3) DC from Doughiska
4) Monivea Rd from Ballybane/Mervue

Ballinfolye Junction (it's not in Menlo, Menlo is behind Tirellan) entrances/exits
1) Headford Rd from Woodquay (
2) entrance to Castlelawn Heights etc, Dyke Rd & Menlo
3) Headford Rd from Ballindooley
4) DC from Tuam Rd
5) Sandy Rd

Mrs OBumble

Why did Dunnes think they needed all that information? Their entrance is a good bit down the road from the junction, hard to see it being affected?

Now Terryland Retail Park and the Pillo Hotel would be a lot more affected. Did they submit?

galwaycyclist

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Why did Dunnes think they needed all that information? Their entrance is a good bit down the road from the junction, hard to see it being affected?

Now Terryland Retail Park and the Pillo Hotel would be a lot more affected. Did they submit?

No I believe their junction at Dun Na Coiribe is to become a four way crossroads with traffic signals.

antoobrien

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Why did Dunnes think they needed all that information? Their entrance is a good bit down the road from the junction, hard to see it being affected?

Now Terryland Retail Park and the Pillo Hotel would be a lot more affected. Did they submit?

There's access to Dunnes through that retail Park, concerns around the proposals to route (at least some) of the Dunnes traffic through this park are detailed in their submission.

The "main" entrance and exit from Dunnes is dealt with in the plans for Bodkin

It should also be noted that Dunnes are not limiting their submission to the proposed Kirwan works, but they are discussing the entire project from Corrib Park to Briarhill.

It's certainly worth a good read of that and the submission from the planning consultant hired by the owner of the Menlo Park Hotel.

dloob

antoobrien wrote: »

It looks fairly comprehensive all right.

Slightly o.t. but in keeping with the Dunnes report, there's a traffic survey being carried out at the moment on some of junctions on the east side of town. I've spotted/taken notice them at the former Briarhill RAB & the Doughiska RAB. Anybody else spot them?

Yes it seems to be an extensive survey, they are also some over in westside and around the ballybane junction.
I think there was one on Sean Mulvoy road as well.

dloob

This is still causing rows in the council anyway.
No solution in sight yet, director of services suggests the councillors come up with something themselves if they are so smart.

Guess we'll have a few months of back and forth at least.

http://galwayindependent.com/stories/item/5053/2012-49/Tempers-rise-over-Kirwan-saga

Cllr Billy Cameron pressed Mr Hayes on the impact of the refusal at last night’s meeting, expressing concerns over the possible lack of uniformity between the junctions. Other councillors branded the current situation a “total mess” that would jeopardise the entire N6 scheme.
Mr Hayes responded by saying that the status quo had been created by decisions made by the councillors themselves and that he had put forward the plan that he considered to be the best option. When councillors countered that this did not negate the need for an alternative plan, he challenged them to come with one themselves, provoking outrage in the chamber.
Cllr Frank Fahy demanded the official withdraw his statement, while Cllr Padraig Conneely got involved in a heated tete-a-tete with Mr Hayes.

Iwannahurl

dloob wrote: »

This is still causing rows in the council anyway.
No solution in sight yet, director of services suggests the councillors come up with something themselves if they are so smart.

Guess we'll have a few months of back and forth at least.

http://galwayindependent.com/stories/item/5053/2012-49/Tempers-rise-over-Kirwan-saga

I'm a bit confused by this sentence: "Mr Hayes responded by saying that the status quo had been created by decisions made by the councillors themselves."

Decisions in the plural? The implication seems to be that the elected members made a series of decisions which led to the current mess.

What decisions might the Director be referring to, and how far back do they go?

Sponge Bob

The ones they made in October and either April or May.

dloob

Iwannahurl wrote: »

I'm a bit confused by this sentence: "Mr Hayes responded by saying that the status quo had been created by decisions made by the councillors themselves."

Decisions in the plural? The implication seems to be that the elected members made a series of decisions which led to the current mess.

What decisions might the Director be referring to, and how far back do they go?

I thought it was only referring to the decision to not go ahead with junction at kirwan.
But who knows, maybe he was getting another dig in there.

antoobrien

One of the the locals appears to have "fixed" the problem on the signage

Unrealistic

antoobrien wrote: »

One of the the locals appears to have "fixed" the problem on the signage

I think that was done officially rather than it being locals. It's been like that for years. Long before the junction change was mooted. I presumed it was to discourage people from travelling through Liosban or Sandy Road.