German hypocrisy on debt

dttq

Ok, I'm going to go against the advice of Basil Fawlty here, but in light of recent German moral pontificating on debt in countries like Ireland and Greece, am I the only one who sees hypocrisy here given Germany's own history? This is a country that within the space of 40 years, caused the two largest wars in Europe's history, which not only caused tens of millions of deaths, but also bankrupted large parts of Europe for decades, causing as much economic destruction in the process, as the destruction of lives. At least we, even if we didn't get our economic policies right, never destroyed the economies of other countries, bankrupting some of them for decades after the end of WWII.

smash

Stop living in the past.

Boombastic

dttq wrote: »

Ok, I'm going to go against the advice of Basil Fawlty here, but in light of recent German moral pontificating on debt in countries like Ireland and Greece, am I the only one who sees hypocrisy here given Germany's own history? This is a country that within the space of 40 years, caused the two largest wars in Europe's history, which not only caused tens of millions of deaths, but also bankrupted large parts of Europe for decades, causing as much economic destruction in the process, as the destruction of lives. At least we, even if we didn't get our economic policies right, never destroyed the economies of other countries, bankrupting some of them for decades after the end of WWII.

Can I take your order?....Orders which must be obeyed



I think we got away with it!

Dr Bob

smash wrote: »

Stop living in the past.

Hey , I like living in the past, at least I had money back then!

dr.bollocko

GOD WINS ON POST 1!

OldGoat

Dr Bob wrote: »

Hey , I like living in the past, at least I had money back then!

That depends on how far back you go. Before we had no money we had plenty. Before we had plenty we had none. I think we blamed the British that time, or the Japanese. Anyway, it wasn't our fault.

nacimroc

Its the fact they think they are bailing US out that drives me insane. They give us a loan (charge huge interest), make us pay it all back to their investors who failed at their gambling but yet the whole EU thinks us Irish just got a wad of 80bn cash we don't have to pay back!

Ireland has the power to shake the **** out of the stable euro now. We should make use of it. If Enda said tomorrow we want a right down as the whole Euro is flawed and will fail within 12 months, they would do whatever it took to keep us happy! Its our only bargaining chip that we never use.

For some reason the Germans look like the good ones in this deal. Thats the bit that pisses me off most.

Shenshen

dttq wrote: »

Ok, I'm going to go against the advice of Basil Fawlty here, but in light of recent German moral pontificating on debt in countries like Ireland and Greece, am I the only one who sees hypocrisy here given Germany's own history? This is a country that within the space of 40 years, caused the two largest wars in Europe's history, which not only caused tens of millions of deaths, but also bankrupted large parts of Europe for decades, causing as much economic destruction in the process, as the destruction of lives. At least we, even if we didn't get our economic policies right, never destroyed the economies of other countries, bankrupting some of them for decades after the end of WWII.

Well, that must be then why Germany's been repaying war debt up until some 5 years ago, wouldn't you think?

smash

nacimroc wrote: »

If Enda said tomorrow we want a right down as the whole Euro is flawed and will fail within 12 months, they would do whatever it took to keep us happy!

I doubt it. And lets face it if we did that we wouldn't be pissing of the Germans, we'd piss off the whole of Europe.

Colmustard

"German hypocrisy on Debt"

Does the OP suggest we don't pay our debts on the grounds Germany started a war 73 years ago. To me the OP doesn't seem that bright.

davet82

dttq wrote: »

Ok, I'm going to go against the advice of Basil Fawlty here, but in light of recent German moral pontificating on debt in countries like Ireland and Greece, am I the only one who sees hypocrisy here given Germany's own history? This is a country that within the space of 40 years, caused the two largest wars in Europe's history, which not only caused tens of millions of deaths, but also bankrupted large parts of Europe for decades, causing as much economic destruction in the process, as the destruction of lives. At least we, even if we didn't get our economic policies right, never destroyed the economies of other countries, bankrupting some of them for decades after the end of WWII.

ok the germans are hypocrites but we still owe the money so is that the point of the thread?

Gee Bag

OSI wrote: »

Not really fair to blame the Germans entirely for both WW's.

They were part of a much bigger picture that caused WW1, and after being shafted with the blame and responsibility for WW1 at the end of it, spiralled pretty steeply eventually leading to the Nazis gaining power and WW2. You can lay a large portion of blame on the rise of the Nazis on the Allies trying to humiliate Germany after WW1.

True enough, OP was a bit unfair on ze Germans. Causes of WWI are explained quite well here.......

later12

http://irrev-black.com/wp-content/uploads/black//01-Tu-Quoque.jpg

irishgrover

Personally I think it's in very bad taste to blame Germany for the sins of it's fathers or grandfathers.
Regardless of one's view on the current economic situation I don't think it's particularly related to the fact that "your grandad was a Nazi fascist......"

Sykk

So, you're saying Germany shouldn't be repaid to billions that they've loaned other countries to solve their problems, because of what people who no longer exist done over 70 years ago?

OP for president!

bbam

I bet they're sending us this ****e weather too.
Obviously the solution is to go onto the Internet moaning about the fact that the people who lent us money actually expect us to pay it back. The cheek!

And they once caused a war so they must be bad people so it's ok if we renage on our debts.

Op is a political and economic genius, well in their own mind anyway.

Colmustard

I blame the French for WW2 if Clemenceau went with Wilson and Lloyd George and hadn't crippled Germany with the massive reparations at the Versailles treaty you wouldn't had got the social instability in Germany and then you would not have got a Hitler.

davet82

so now we've established the germans are hypocrites and started two world wars and killed millions and wrecked other countries economies and beat lots of teams at football it now means that Ireland shouldnt have to pay pack all the money that was borrowed from them... somebody call Enda and let him know this, well done OP :rolleyes:

davet82

Colmustard wrote: »

I blame the French for WW2 if Clemenceau went with Wilson and Lloyd George and hadn't crippled Germany with the massive reparations at the Versailles treaty you wouldn't had got the social instability in Germany and then you would not have got a Hitler.

cool we dont have to pay anything to the french now either... who else do we owe money to and what can we blame the for so we stiff them for money

Mr Benevolent

dttq wrote: »

Ok, I'm going to go against the advice of Basil Fawlty here, but in light of recent German moral pontificating on debt in countries like Ireland and Greece, am I the only one who sees hypocrisy here given Germany's own history? This is a country that within the space of 40 years, caused the two largest wars in Europe's history,

Germany didn't cause WW1.

At least we, even if we didn't get our economic policies right, never destroyed the economies of other countries, bankrupting some of them for decades after the end of WWII.

Expect this thread to appear in the Indo tomorrow as an argument against paying our debts. Pathetic.

Grayson

Gee Bag wrote: »

True enough, OP was a bit unfair on ze Germans. Causes of WWI are explained quite well here.......

Yeah, I mean everyone kinda wanted that war. If it was today, they'd be organising it in facebook.

Attending: Germany, France, Brittan.....
Not attending: Switzerland
maybe attending: United States.

dttq

Eh, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of German pontificating on debt and how other countries handle it, given their own history of bankrupting a whole continent, and not just their own back yard which is what we and the Greeks merely did. Nothing there about debt forgiveness because of what the Germans did 70 years ago. People reading into things which aren't even there, yet I'm been called the idiot :rolleyes:

ejmaztec

irishgrover wrote: »

Personally I think it's in very bad taste to blame Germany for the sins of it's fathers or grandfathers.
Regardless of one's view on the current economic situation I don't think it's particularly related to the fact that "your grandad was a Nazi fascist......"

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RAgsubC0zaE

Gee Bag

Grayson wrote: »

Yeah, I mean everyone kinda wanted that war. If it was today, they'd be organising it in facebook.

Attending: Germany, France, Brittan.....
Not attending: Switzerland
maybe attending: United States.

Kaiser Willhelm II Likes This.

Biggins

Sadly not the first time Germany has broken EU rules (example) which surprising in some cases, it insisted upon in the first place.
I believe they alone broke a number of fiscal limits legally set (here). They being the first to do so after their introduction.

Thank gawd we have honest politicians.
We would never break rules that we have set ourselves.

Grayson

dttq wrote: »

Eh, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of German pontificating on debt and how other countries handle it, given their own history of bankrupting a whole continent, and not just their own back yard which is what we and the Greeks merely did. Nothing there about debt forgiveness because of what the Germans did 70 years ago. People reading into things which aren't even there, yet I'm been called the idiot :rolleyes:

have you ever heard of the versaille agreement and the debt repayments? What we're in now is nothing compared to that amount. And the state of ireland is nothing compared to the state of germany in 1923

2ygb4cmqetsjhx

What happened in Germany 60 years ago is irrelevant. What happened in Germany 10 years ago is irrelevant. You have to look at the present situation. Germans on a personal level don't take 120% mortgages to buy houses. If they buy houses they'd be lucky to get 75%.

Secondly their economy was based on hard work, efficiency and producing useful products such machinery and cars. Ours was based on bull**** spoof artists and building ****holes that we don't need to buy with money we don't have.

Most importantly of all. We are more in the **** than they are. Talking about what happened in the War is irrelevant. The reality is they are doing it right now and although not perfect(Germany has it's problems) they are treading water while we are swimming in the ****. We could probably learn ALOT from Germany.

Mr Benevolent

dttq wrote: »

Eh, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of German pontificating on debt and how other countries handle it, given their own history of bankrupting a whole continent, and not just their own back yard which is what we and the Greeks merely did. Nothing there about debt forgiveness because of what the Germans did 70 years ago. People reading into things which aren't even there, yet I'm been called the idiot :rolleyes:

The debt the Germans got from WW1 wasn't forgiven either. Why are you arguing that we should dodge our responsibilities? Anyone who got a cheap mortgage or a loan in the period 1999-2008 is implicated in our current mess.

ejmaztec

dttq wrote: »

Eh, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of German pontificating on debt and how other countries handle it, given their own history of bankrupting a whole continent, and not just their own back yard which is what we and the Greeks merely did. Nothing there about debt forgiveness because of what the Germans did 70 years ago. People reading into things which aren't even there, yet I'm been called the idiot :rolleyes:

The Greeks, during a moment of desperation, wanted Germany to hand over the gold bullion looted by the Nazis during WW2. If anything, it proved that the Germans have a sense of humour, because they pissed themselves laughing.

Colmustard

dttq wrote: »

Ok, I'm going to go against the advice of Basil Fawlty here, but in light of recent German moral pontificating on debt in countries like Ireland and Greece, am I the only one who sees hypocrisy here given Germany's own history? This is a country that within the space of 40 years, caused the two largest wars in Europe's history, which not only caused tens of millions of deaths, but also bankrupted large parts of Europe for decades, causing as much economic destruction in the process, as the destruction of lives. At least we, even if we didn't get our economic policies right, never destroyed the economies of other countries, bankrupting some of them for decades after the end of WWII.

People
I was on to my bank manager and I read this to him and I said I am not paying my mortgage anymore on the grounds your organisations broke this country. He understood and he said he will not send me any pontificating letters and he will write the debt off. I am now a property owner. OP you are brilliant.

History what is the point.

Shenshen

dttq wrote: »

Eh, I was just pointing out the hypocrisy of German pontificating on debt and how other countries handle it, given their own history of bankrupting a whole continent, and not just their own back yard which is what we and the Greeks merely did. Nothing there about debt forgiveness because of what the Germans did 70 years ago. People reading into things which aren't even there, yet I'm been called the idiot :rolleyes:

Nobody forgave the Germans their debts, they have been paying back war debt and reparations up until very recently.
So what exactly is your point here?

Biggins

Shenshen wrote: »

Nobody forgave the Germans their debts, they have been paying back war debt and reparations up until very recently.

Yep, I remember reading about it recently.
One info link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315869/Germany-end-World-War-One-reparations-92-years-59m-final-payment.html

Germany will finally clear its First World War debt by repaying nearly 75.84€million this weekend.
The 27.81€billion reparations were set by the Allied victors – mostly Britain, France and America – as compensation and punishment for the 1914-18 war.
The reparations were set at the Treaty of Versailles on June 28, 1919, by the Allied victors - mostly Britain, France and America.

dttq

Colmustard wrote: »

People
I was on to my bank manager and I read this to him and I said I am not paying my mortgage anymore on the grounds your organisations broke this country. He understood and he said he will not send me any pontificating letters and he will write the debt off. I am now a property owner. OP you are brilliant.

History what is the point.

You are about as funny as a German stand up comedian.

Shenshen

Biggins wrote: »

Yep, I remember reading about it recently.
One info link: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1315869/Germany-end-World-War-One-reparations-92-years-59m-final-payment.html

Which only accounts for WW I.
I just had a look into WW II, and it would appear that Germany is still repaying Israel for that to this day.
The distribution of these debt repayments seem rather random, though. Poland never received any repayments, while Yugoslavia received compensations of an estimated value of $36mio in industrial equipment.
There were some annexations, but it's a little difficult to put a value on those.
The US seems to mostly have taken any patents and copyrights they could get their hands on. That would explain the massive technological advances they made in the 50s.

Triangla

Britain only finished paying off the US for WW2 lend lease in 2006, crazy to think about!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/may/05/secondworldwar.comment

As for the OP, there are many reasons why we should not be borrowing so much.

Two I would suggest are:
1) Bank debt should have been paid by the banks and not nationalised, hence the name bank debt

2) Massive public sector wage bill, it's too big and needs to be cut by a hell of a lot

Bringing up WW2 as a reason not only displays an ignorance of the past but also completely side steps the reality of the present.

Biggins

Shenshen wrote: »

...The US seems to mostly have taken any patents and copyrights they could get their hands on. That would explain the massive technological advances they made in the 50s.

...So would their taking of Von Braun and others in the science field, to the states for their knowledge (letting them off with possible war crimes) - but thats a whole big topic for another thread.

Colmustard

dttq wrote: »

You are about as funny as a German stand up comedian.

Are German stand up comedians not funny? I seen one and he was hilarious, but not as funny as you.

cosbloodymick

Shenshen wrote: »

Nobody forgave the Germans their debts, they have been paying back war debt and reparations up until very recently.
So what exactly is your point here?

Simply untrue.
Germany had all its WW2 debt written off in 1952. An equivalent of 600% of its GDP. Germany also got a massive stimulus of billions of dollars in aid in the form of the Marshall plan from the nations it had actually tried to destroy. Not to mention all the loot it plundered from the nations it invaded.
The debts Germany insists Ireland has now to pay back include private debt that has been transferred to the sovereign (tax Payers).
I have no problem paying back what is legitimately owed but squeezing Ireland to pay back failed speculators is immoral and the complete opposite of the benevolence shown to Germany when it was in trouble.
I'm with the OP on this one

Shenshen

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Simply untrue.
Germany had all its WW2 debt written off in 1952. An equivalent of 600% of its GDP. Germany also got a massive stimulus of billions of dollars in aid in the form of the Marshall plan from the nations it had actually tried to destroy. Not to mention all the loot it plundered from the nations it invaded.
The debts Germany insists Ireland has now to pay back include private debt that has been transferred to the sovereign (tax Payers).
I have no problem paying back what is legitimately owed but squeezing Ireland to pay back failed speculators is immoral and the complete opposite of the benevolence shown to Germany when it was in trouble.
I'm with the OP on this one

If you are referring to the London Debt Agreement here, that was debt reduction on debts Germany ran up between 1920 and 1930, a total of $ 16 billion.
France, the US and Britain reduced this to about half, which Germany did pay back on time.
Edit : Also, that would have been in 1953 rather than 1952, just as an aside.

Colmustard

Colmustard wrote: »

Are German stand up comedians not funny? I seen one and he was hilarious, but not as funny as you.

One of his jokes at the comedy club in London, I was listening to the English fans in Germany (the world cup year) "2 world wars and one world cup do da do da",,I never knew America won a world cup.

I broke my bollox laughing and the crowd booed him. In the end he got a standing ovation.

Chuck Stone

It's really pathetic that people can only access the 'Hitler file' when they talk about Germany.

The Israelis are allies with Germany these days (the Germans even built them a billion dollar sub and donated it to them for free!) and yet people in Ireland still bang on about Germany like it they were injured on D-day.

Give it a fucking rest.

theholyghost

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Simply untrue.
. Germany also got a massive stimulus of billions of dollars in aid in the form of the Marshall plan from the nations it had actually tried to destroy.

So like the Mouse That Roared we need to invade the United States, be defeated quickly and then benefit from an injection of their victorious cash.

Colmustard

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Simply untrue.
Germany had all its WW2 debt written off in 1952. An equivalent of 600% of its GDP. Germany also got a massive stimulus of billions of dollars in aid in the form of the Marshall plan from the nations it had actually tried to destroy. Not to mention all the loot it plundered from the nations it invaded.
The debts Germany insists Ireland has now to pay back include private debt that has been transferred to the sovereign (tax Payers).
I have no problem paying back what is legitimately owed but squeezing Ireland to pay back failed speculators is immoral and the complete opposite of the benevolence shown to Germany when it was in trouble.
I'm with the OP on this one

They got Marshal aid to stop them from going commy. As for Ireland we had to save our banks. I don't know what would have happened if we let our banks go to the wall. I think our problems would have been worse. I don't know. Perhaps we should have let Anglo go, but we will never know.

So we borrowed to save our banks, not the speculators. I believe that was the prudent thing to do at that time.

ejmaztec

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Simply untrue.
Germany had all its WW2 debt written off in 1952. An equivalent of 600% of its GDP. Germany also got a massive stimulus of billions of dollars in aid in the form of the Marshall plan from the nations it had actually tried to destroy. Not to mention all the loot it plundered from the nations it invaded.
The debts Germany insists Ireland has now to pay back include private debt that has been transferred to the sovereign (tax Payers).
I have no problem paying back what is legitimately owed but squeezing Ireland to pay back failed speculators is immoral and the complete opposite of the benevolence shown to Germany when it was in trouble.
I'm with the OP on this one

I think the main reason Germany was bank-rolled after WW2 was to prevent a repeat of what happened after it was left up to its eyeballs in sh1t after WW1. The first ones to take advantage of a post WW2 Germany in turmoil would have been the Soviets, with the Iron Curtain starting at the French border instead of a lot further East.

MHalberstram

davet82 wrote: »

so now we've established the germans are hypocrites and started two world wars and killed millions and wrecked other countries economies and beat lots of teams at football it now means that Ireland shouldnt have to pay pack all the money that was borrowed from them... somebody call Enda and let him know this, well done OP :rolleyes:

Private banks borrowed the money.

Shenshen

Colmustard wrote: »

They got Marshal aid to stop them from going commy. As for Ireland we had to save our banks. I don't know what would have happened if we let our banks go to the wall. I think our problems would have been worse. I don't know. Perhaps we should have let Anglo go, but we will never know.

So we borrowed to save our banks, not the speculators. I believe that was the prudent thing to do at that time.

Most people believed that at the time, I know I did.
I don't think there were many people around who even suspected that the bank debt we were guaranteeing would be high enough to bankrupt the entire country. Nobody would have imagined that at the time, and the people who should have checked... well, didn't.

swimming in a sea

OSI wrote: »

Not really fair to blame the Germans entirely for both WW's.

They were part of a much bigger picture that caused WW1, and after being shafted with the blame and responsibility for WW1 at the end of it, spiralled pretty steeply eventually leading to the Nazis gaining power and WW2. You can lay a large portion of blame on the rise of the Nazis on the Allies trying to humiliate Germany after WW1.

It was the hardline policys of countries that dealt with german debt in the 20's\30's that caused the country to go in to depression and hyper inflation, they could just not pay off the versaille debs. So you could say they have not learned from their own past with regards to Greece.

cosbloodymick

Colmustard wrote: »

They got Marshal aid to stop them from going commy. As for Ireland we had to save our banks. I don't know what would have happened if we let our banks go to the wall. I think our problems would have been worse. I don't know. Perhaps we should have let Anglo go, but we will never know.

So we borrowed to save our banks, not the speculators. I believe that was the prudent thing to do at that time.

Yeah, its worked out really well hasn't it.
Their our banks now but they were private companies then.
Profits are private but losses are socialised, what a scam!!

ArmaniJeanss

swimming in a sea wrote: »

So you could say they have not learned from their own past with regards to Greece.

Not really.
They treat Greece with compassion, shove billions in its direction via low interest loans, and offer advice on what Greece needs to do to get itself out of the mess.
Its completely different to how Germany was itself treated in the 1920s.

Colmustard

Shenshen wrote: »

Most people believed that at the time, I know I did.
I don't think there were many people around who even suspected that the bank debt we were guaranteeing would be high enough to bankrupt the entire country. Nobody would have imagined that at the time, and the people who should have checked... well, didn't.

And that was the crux of it, the banks lied through their teeth and Lenihan believed them.

But this is hindsight, I think he should have let Anglo go, but he would still have to have saved AIB and BOI, otherwise it would have been a disaster.Imagine a country with no wages been paid and everyones saving wiped out completely. That is what would have happened. But we will never know whether that was the best thing to do, then what he did do.

CruelCoin

dttq wrote: »

Ok, I'm going to go against the advice of Basil Fawlty here, but in light of recent German moral pontificating on debt in countries like Ireland and Greece, am I the only one who sees hypocrisy here given Germany's own history? This is a country that within the space of 40 years, caused the two largest wars in Europe's history, which not only caused tens of millions of deaths, but also bankrupted large parts of Europe for decades, causing as much economic destruction in the process, as the destruction of lives. At least we, even if we didn't get our economic policies right, never destroyed the economies of other countries, bankrupting some of them for decades after the end of WWII.

Look at it a different way:

They built up the manpower, resources, wealth and popular opinion to wage war and conquer the entirety of Europe.

They got bombed into the stone age, with all the resources, wealth and most of their men-folk dead.

40 years later they did it again, and now they have the wealth once more!

These people have the answer, they know how it works, and we should be begging them for the secret.

Yes OP, how ****ing dare they give us their money...