German hypocrisy on debt

cosbloodymick

Colmustard wrote: »

And that was the crux of it, the banks lied through their teeth and Lenihan believed them.

But this is hindsight, I think he should have let Anglo go, but he would still have to have saved AIB and BOI, otherwise it would have been a disaster.Imagine a country with no wages been paid and everyones saving wiped out completely. That is what would have happened. But we will never know whether that was the best thing to do, then what he did do.

That country is Iceland. Their savings depreciated 50%.
But they are in a much better position than we are now.
Unemployment: Ireland 14.9% v Iceland 7%.
Growth: Ireland 0 v Iceland 2/3%.
Iceland can Borrow money at sustainable rates, Ireland cannot. Icelands circumstances have been improving every quarter for the last 18mths ours are tanking. We are paying a massive price for this in terms of unemployment emigration and suicides.
Iceland had a referendum whether to pay back bondholders or not and the people refused. Makes a mockery of the "we must pay back every penny to unsecured bondholders or no one will ever lend to us again" brigade.
Of course I am well aware that Iceland was not in the Euro straightjacket that we are and is able to devalue its currency.

Colmustard

cosbloodymick wrote: »

That country is Iceland. Their savings depreciated 50%.
But they are in a much better position than we are now.
Unemployment: Ireland 14.9% v Iceland 7%.
Growth: Ireland 0 v Iceland 2/3%.
Iceland can Borrow money at sustainable rates, Ireland cannot. Icelands circumstances have been improving every quarter for the last 18mths ours are tanking. We are paying a massive price for this in terms of unemployment emigration and suicides.
Iceland had a referendum whether to pay back bondholders or not and the people refused. Makes a mockery of the "we must pay back every penny to unsecured bondholders or no one will ever lend to us again" brigade.
Of course I am well aware that Iceland was not in the Euro straightjacket that we are and is able to devalue its currency.

You can't compare Iceland to Ireland. Icelands population is 300,000 about the size of Cork, they have their own resources and currency, we do not.

Shenshen

cosbloodymick wrote: »

That country is Iceland. Their savings depreciated 50%.
But they are in a much better position than we are now.
Unemployment: Ireland 14.9% v Iceland 7%.
Growth: Ireland 0 v Iceland 2/3%.
Iceland can Borrow money at sustainable rates, Ireland cannot. Icelands circumstances have been improving every quarter for the last 18mths ours are tanking. We are paying a massive price for this in terms of unemployment emigration and suicides.
Iceland had a referendum whether to pay back bondholders or not and the people refused. Makes a mockery of the "we must pay back every penny to unsecured bondholders or no one will ever lend to us again" brigade.
Of course I am well aware that Iceland was not in the Euro straightjacket that we are and is able to devalue its currency.

So what you're saying is, the Icelandic had the good sense to elect better politicians, who decided to not bail out the banks, whereas the Irish voted in a few of the lads, who underwrote all of their nation's bank debt against the advise of all other European nations?

I'm with you so far, but you have to explain to me again how that is Germany's fault?

cosbloodymick

Colmustard wrote: »

You can't compare Iceland to Ireland. Icelands population is 300,000 about the size of Cork, they have their own resources and currency, we do not.

I just have. We also have our own resources, but maybe not for much longer.

golden lane

you borrow money.....you spend it.....you borrow money....you spens it.....stop borrowing money...and stop spending it.......simple..

cosbloodymick

Shenshen wrote: »

So what you're saying is, the Icelandic had the good sense to elect better politicians, who decided to not bail out the banks, whereas the Irish voted in a few of the lads, who underwrote all of their nation's bank debt against the advise of all other European nations?

I'm with you so far, but you have to explain to me again how that is Germany's fault?

Because the ECB threatened to cut off liquidity to the Irish banks unless the Irish government gave a blanket gaurantee. Remember the ECB is supposed to be the lender of last resort, not the Irish taxpayer. The government is in possession of a letter written by the ECB to Brian Lenihan saying exactly that and are very anxious that it not be published. But the truth will out eventually.

Shenshen

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Because the ECB threatened to cut off liquidity to the Irish banks unless the Irish government gave a blanket gaurantee. Remember the ECB is supposed to be the lender of last resort, not the Irish taxpayer. The government is in possession of a letter written by the ECB to Brian Lenihan saying exactly that and are very anxious that it not be published. But the truth will out eventually.

Ah, got ya.
It's all a big conspiracy. Sorry, I forgot to put on my tinfoil hat this morning.

juan.kerr

What I don't understand is why the rest of europe stood idly by while germany reunified. Will this turn out to be our 'Munich Agreement'?

Next they'll start talking about Lebensraum again.

Shenshen

juan.kerr wrote: »

What I don't understand is why the rest of europe stood idly by while germany reunified. Will this turn out to be our 'Munich Agreement'?

Next they'll start talking about Lebensraum again.

What, and they couldn't have done that without first sinking millions and millions of Mark and Euro into Eastern Germany, trying to revive its economy?

Lawrence1895

Yet another thread, judging Germany about what happened some hundred years ago? It's not getting boring, isn't it?

Shenshen

Lars1916 wrote: »

Yet another thread, judging Germany about what happened some hundred years ago? It's not getting boring, isn't it?

Seems to make a change from blaming the British...

Biggins

Look - all I want is my painting back - You know "The Fallen Madonna" painted by Elton John allegedly - the one with the big boobies!


Edit: Corrected my typo!

Shenshen

Biggins wrote: »

Look - all I want is my painting back - You know "The Fallen Madonna" painted by Elton John allegedly - the one with the big bobbies!

A Madonna with big English policemen? :eek:

Biggins

Shenshen wrote: »

A Madonna with big English policemen? :eek:

Darn my spelling. I should have cop-ed on!

cosbloodymick

Shenshen wrote: »

Ah, got ya.
It's all a big conspiracy. Sorry, I forgot to put on my tinfoil hat this morning.

Its not a conspiracy theory at all. Haven't you been listening to the news lately? The letter was written by Jean Claude Trichet. The department of Finance have it in their possession. The ECB have made representations to the Irish government not to publish the letter on the grounds that the correspondence was confidential. I don't believe in conspiracy theories, I'll stick with the facts.

juan.kerr

Shenshen wrote: »

What, and they couldn't have done that without first sinking millions and millions of Mark and Euro into Eastern Germany, trying to revive its economy?

Yeah, that's why the did it. To 'revive' its economy, nothing to do with the 4th reich.

Colmustard

cosbloodymick wrote: »

I just have. We also have our own resources, but maybe not for much longer.

OK why not compare us to Argentina or Mexico they to went broke and didn't honour their debts in the early 80s.

They are still kips, but Argentina is getting slightly better now but after 30 years later of destitution.

2ygb4cmqetsjhx

Just out of interest. Of all the people who are pulling the WW2 card how many of you have actually been to Germany. I'm pretty sure everything some people on this forum know about Germany is what they learned from ww2 movies. VIsit Germany. You might be surprised by what the real Germany is like.

Shenshen

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Its not a conspiracy theory at all. Haven't you been listening to the news lately? The letter was written by Jean Claude Trichet. The department of Finance have it in their possession. The ECB have made representations to the Irish government not to publish the letter on the grounds that the correspondence was confidential. I don't believe in conspiracy theories, I'll stick with the facts.

Just been reading into it... unless there's a second letter that nobody but your good self knows about, there's nobody who forced the Irish government into underwriting bad bank debts. And I vividly remember Germany, the UK and France trying their best to disuade Cowen and Lenihan at the time from taking this step.

The letter that's all over the news concerns the bail-out, with Trichet allegedly trying to threaten the Irish into accepting the bail-out money. Which begs the question why, if the money wasn't needed at all and it was only the two Brians running scared, was it not paid back instantly? I'm sorry, but that really doesn't add up.

Shenshen

juan.kerr wrote: »

Yeah, that's why the did it. To 'revive' its economy, nothing to do with the 4th reich.

I'm sure the 4th Reich will be a sight to behold, with it's new shopping centres, hundreds of towns with nicely restored old facades and fully equipped call centres.

Lawrence1895

Jeffrey Rapping Nap wrote: »

Just out of interest. Of all the people who are pulling the WW2 card how many of you have actually been to Germany. I'm pretty sure everything some people on this forum know about Germany is what they learned from ww2 movies. VIsit Germany. You might be surprised by what the real Germany is like.

May I ask, what you mean with that?

Germany is a big country, loads of different people, depending of the area

juan.kerr

Shenshen wrote: »

I'm sure the 4th Reich will be a sight to behold, with it's new shopping centres, hundreds of towns with nicely restored old facades and fully equipped call centres.

Ha ha. The Germans will have the last laugh though...

Shenshen

Lars1916 wrote: »

May I ask, what you mean with that?

Germany is a big country, loads of different people, depending of the area

Yes, but wherever you go, all taxis are white Mercs.

juan.kerr

They are the same people who tried to enslave half the continent a few short decades ago. Never forget.

Shenshen

juan.kerr wrote: »

They are the same people who tried to enslave half the continent a few short decades ago. Never forget.

Hardly.
They are their grandchildren and great-grandchildren, at this point.

2ygb4cmqetsjhx

Lars1916 wrote: »

May I ask, what you mean with that?

Germany is a big country, loads of different people, depending of the area

What I mean is that Germany is not a bunch of boring people goose stepping around with weird haircuts singing Deutschland Deutschland über Alles while hunting down jews with mp44s. Also Irish people seem to think Germans are boring and unfunny. It's simply not the case.

juan.kerr

Shenshen wrote: »

Hardly.
They are their grandchildren and great-grandchildren, at this point.

So you think they have changed? After they were let away with it the last time around they have only gotten sneakier.

golden lane

juan.kerr wrote: »

They are the same people who tried to enslave half the continent a few short decades ago. Never forget.

but it is the germans who are enslaved now.....they are having to work hard, to keep most of europe going.....

Lawrence1895

Jeffrey Rapping Nap wrote: »

What I mean is that Germany is not a bunch of boring people goose stepping around with weird haircuts singing Deutschland Deutschland über Alles while hunting down jews with mp44s. Also Irihs people seem to think Germans are boring and unfunny. It's simply not the case.

Never mind all those stupid stereotypes, not all Germans are mean with money either

juan.kerr

golden lane wrote: »

but it is the germans who are enslaved now.....they are having to work hard, to keep most of europe going.....

Jesus, they have you fooled anyway. It's all part of their master plan.

Mr Benevolent

juan.kerr wrote: »

So you think they have changed? After they were let away with it the last time around they have only gotten sneakier.

What a horrifically blinkered view.

juan.kerr

Confab wrote: »

What a horrifically blinkered view.

So you think their support for the european experiment is for purely altruistic reasons? What a terribly deluded view.

golden lane

juan.kerr wrote: »

Jesus, they have you fooled anyway. It's all part of their master plan.

yes, i am very naive......all the money they are giving everybody........a secret plan to go broke....

CruelCoin

juan.kerr wrote: »

They are the same people who tried to enslave half the continent a few short decades ago. Never forget.

Coming from an Irishman whose distant relatives repeatedly invaded and enslaved the british.

Never forget.

Hurrrrr

2ygb4cmqetsjhx

Can we add a poll to this thread. How many people have visited Germany?

Colmustard

golden lane wrote: »

but it is the germans who are enslaved now.....they are having to work hard, to keep most of europe going.....

And people don't realise that, they are keeping the Euro afloat. WE DO NOT WANT THE EURO TO FAIL, that would be the death knell to us and half of europe and a savage and deep depression for the rest of the world which would make 1929 look like a walk in the park.

So thank you Germany.

Lawrence1895

juan.kerr wrote: »

So you think they have changed? After they were let away with it the last time around they have only gotten sneakier.

Times are changing, so are the people

And what do you mean with 'being let away'? Didn't you learn in school, that Germany was divided as a result of WW2, and was paying compensations to Israel for decades?

juan.kerr

CruelCoin wrote: »

Coming from an Irishman whose distant relatives repeatedly invaded and enslaved the british.

Never forget.

Hurrrrr

What now?

Shenshen

Jeffrey Rapping Nap wrote: »

Can we add a poll to this thread. How many people have visited Germany?

I'd suggest starting a new thread for this, maybe?

cosbloodymick

Colmustard wrote: »

OK why not compare us to Argentina or Mexico they to went broke and didn't honour their debts in the early 80s.

They are still kips, but Argentina is getting slightly better now recovering now 30 years later.

Argentina crashed in 2001 and started its spectacular recovery within a couple of years. Mexico is growing at a rate of 7% per annum but has huge problems with drug cartels.
The reason I chose Iceland is because their crises happenened at the same time as ours. There have been numerous examples of countries going broke over the centuries but not one has never been able to borrow again as some people seem to think will happen in our case. What usually happens when a country goes bankrupt is it negotiates with its creditors what it can pay back and devalues its currency. The creditors and the debtor both take a hit. Borrowing/lending is a two way street. The country then is more likely able to repay the new borrowings as it is not crushed with its old debts. The markets understand this and hence lend as they are forward looking. The reason Ireland is locked out of the market is because lenders know we will not be able to pay back any new loans as we can't pay back our existing ones especially as they have been inflated due to taking on private banking debt. The ECB just recently agreed to support Spanish banks without putting the bill on the sovereign. Hopefully our Government will get a similar deal in the ongoing negotiations.

Fuinseog

dttq wrote: »

Ok, I'm going to go against the advice of Basil Fawlty here, but in light of recent German moral pontificating on debt in countries like Ireland and Greece, am I the only one who sees hypocrisy here given Germany's own history? This is a country that within the space of 40 years, caused the two largest wars in Europe's history, which not only caused tens of millions of deaths, but also bankrupted large parts of Europe for decades, causing as much economic destruction in the process, as the destruction of lives. At least we, even if we didn't get our economic policies right, never destroyed the economies of other countries, bankrupting some of them for decades after the end of WWII.

I wonder have people like you ever being outside of ireland?

CruelCoin

juan.kerr wrote: »

What now?

In anchient times, the Irish were an incredibly warlike people; constantly invading and conquering England. Up until the English got their act to gether and proceeded to own our asses for the nest oh 800 years or so.

latenia

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Simply untrue.
Germany had all its WW2 debt written off in 1952. An equivalent of 600% of its GDP. Germany also got a massive stimulus of billions of dollars in aid in the form of the Marshall plan from the nations it had actually tried to destroy. Not to mention all the loot it plundered from the nations it invaded.

This is the plain uncomfortable truth of the matter and the root of the current economic crisis. The generation of Germans who have recently or are about to retire profited massively from the war and its aftermath. They had a country reduced to rubble with vast sums of free (or virtually free due to neglible interest rates) money to rebuild its infrastructure; the generation before them was filleted through death, injury and madness, leaving their children's career paths artificially clear. They also didn't have to pay pensions to millions of soldiers' and civilians' corpses littered around Europe.

Throughout the Cold War they benefitted from a double whammy in defence-their own spending was extremely low, but at the same time the presence of the Allies on their soil is to this day a boost to their economy.

These specific circumstances led to unsustainable social welfare rates and transfer payments-travel anywhere in the world and you'll see lots of Germans in their 60s and 70s spending amounts of money which clearly aren't commensurate with the careers they've just retired from or a sensible reflection of the current and future economic climate-factory workers, civil servants, middle management etc.

Unfortunately their demographics no longer support this model in the exact same way that other great 'post-war miracle economy' Japan ran out of steam 20 years ago. The cost of reunification didn't help either so we had an economy which was slowly dying being dubbed 'the sick man of Europe' prior to the Euro's introduction. Fast forward 10 years and they are once again the 'powerhouse of Europe' but fundamentally nothing has changed apart from the fact their exports to the rest of Europe are priced artificially low and their pension funds have found new homes in the fringes of the Eurozone where they receive free-market rates of return immorally backed by states. Audis went from a relatively rare sight on Ireland's roads to ubiquity while we either used to or still do have the highest BMW ownership rate outside of Germany itself.

The myth of the 'prudent German saver' vs the feckless (probably Catholic) southern Europeans has been extended for a few more years and the gravy train has grabbed more money but something's got to give eventually. When I hear the word prudent in that context I don't picture a logical, meticulous German carefully managing thir wealth but of someone sitting on their arse expecting their bank balance to miraculously increase by 3 or 4% for no apparent reason.

The big 'dent' in the pyramid at age 60 illustrates my point while the big bulge in the middle is what we're paying for:

http://www.carto.net/svg/samples/pop_pyramid_germany.png

Shenshen

Lars1916 wrote: »

Times are changing, so are the people

And what do you mean with 'being let away'? Didn't you learn in school, that Germany was divided as a result of WW2, and was paying compensations to Israel for decades?

Still is paying, actually, as I found out today.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n6p19_reparations.html

Lawrence1895

Fuinseog wrote: »

I wonder have people like you ever being outside of ireland?

Maybe in Spain, a few times?

DoesNotCompute

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olD8Nv7C8qs

Fuinseog

juan.kerr wrote: »

They are the same people who tried to enslave half the continent a few short decades ago. Never forget.

If there is crowd worse than the black and tans its those Germons.

Lawrence1895

Shenshen wrote: »

Still is paying, actually, as I found out today.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n6p19_reparations.html

I heard claims already, that Israel was using this money to finance the war against Palestine...by ordinary people, not by some Nazis, btw.

Shenshen

Lars1916 wrote: »

I heard claims already, that Israel was using this money to finance the war against Palestine...by ordinary people, not by some Nazis, btw.

Wouldn't surprise me in the least.
If there is one place where WW II is essentially still raging in all its nastyness, it's Israel and Palestine.

Fuinseog

Colmustard wrote: »

And people don't realise that, they are keeping the Euro afloat. WE DO NOT WANT THE EURO TO FAIL, that would be the death knell to us and half of europe and a savage and deep depression for the rest of the world which would make 1929 look like a walk in the park.

So thank you Germany.

Germany has contributed so much to a united Europe while this country has milked it for all its worth.

I know German earning as little as 3 euro an Hour and who work every hour God sends. They have no liveline or Joe Duffy to bitch to.