German hypocrisy on debt

juan.kerr

Lars1916 wrote: »

Times are changing, so are the people

And what do you mean with 'being let away'? Didn't you learn in school, that Germany was divided as a result of WW2, and was paying compensations to Israel for decades?

The 'division' wasn't a 'punishment'. It was a political reality that the western allies didn't want the soviet Union annexing the entire country of Germany.

Reparations represented a fraction of what the should have been forced to pay. West Germany was 'rehabilitated' almost immediately for political expediency i.e. the threat to western europe from the Soviet Union.

There was minimal de-Nazification, they all just hid their Nazi party badges and slid back into civilian life as if nothing had happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reparations_for_World_War_II

West Germany paid reparations to Israel and the World Jewish Congress for confiscated Jewish property under Nuremberg laws, forced labour and persecution. However, no reparations were paid for killed Jews during the Holocaust, and no reparations were paid to the Romani people.

West Germany never paid its reparations for the damage inflicted in Poland.

CucaFace

Jeffrey Rapping Nap wrote: »

What happened in Germany 60 years ago is irrelevant. What happened in Germany 10 years ago is irrelevant. You have to look at the present situation. Germans on a personal level don't take 120% mortgages to buy houses. If they buy houses they'd be lucky to get 75%.

Yes but some of their banks were very quick to lend the money to our banks to lend (some) of us the money for these 120% mortages in order to make money for themselves.

Our banks gambled, their banks gambled and they both lost, but the Irish public are saddled with this private debt and are the only real losers (well along with the Irish banks also) and this is what really gets to me is that the German banks (along with the others) seem to just wak away freely from all this with their money back, plus interest and their reputation totally intact.

So we get a massive loan at a high interest rate (as a punishment) which we have to then repay a lot of it right back out again to the foreign bondholders (the German banks being part of this group) and still have to recieve castigation from sections of the German public, and this really pisses me off.

Colmustard

cosbloodymick wrote: »

Argentina crashed in 2001 and started its spectacular recovery within a couple of years. Mexico is growing at a rate of 7% per annum but has huge problems with drug cartels.
The reason I chose Iceland is because their crises happenened at the same time as ours. There have been numerous examples of countries going broke over the centuries but not one has never been able to borrow again as some people seem to think will happen in our case. What usually happens when a country goes bankrupt is it negotiates with its creditors what it can pay back and devalues its currency. The creditors and the debtor both take a hit. Borrowing/lending is a two way street. The country then is more likely able to repay the new borrowings as it is not crushed with its old debts. The markets understand this and hence lend as they are forward looking. The reason Ireland is locked out of the market is because lenders know we will not be able to pay back any new loans as we can't pay back our existing ones especially as they have been inflated due to taking on private banking debt. The ECB just recently agreed to support Spanish banks without putting the bill on the sovereign. Hopefully our Government will get a similar deal in the ongoing negotiations.

Argentina a crashed again in 2001, it is recovering now but only slightly because of commodity prices and it proximity to Brazil. Mexico suffered a 6% contraction in 2008 and is still in trouble.

If you believe we could have not honoured our debts and pulled out of the euro without disastrous economic circumstances you are wrong. First we have no gold reserve and the markets are closed to us to kick start a punt nua. It simply would have been printed paper with no value.

There wouldn't have been a foreign company left of this island. Every problem we have now would have been tripled. Iceland is a different economy to us, they still have their fisheries and there is only 300,000 of them and they are in control of their currency.

Things are not rosy in Iceland, there is still a very high inflation.

juan.kerr

Fuinseog wrote: »

Germany has contributed so much to a united Europe while this country has milked it for all its worth.

I know German earning as little as 3 euro an Hour and who work every hour God sends. They have no liveline or Joe Duffy to bitch to.

Germany is the reason so many countries want or think they need a united europe.

I'd gladly export Joe Duffy if you think it would help your friend.

Shenshen

juan.kerr wrote: »

West Germany never paid its reparations for the damage inflicted in Poland.

]

Much of what is now Poland used to be Germany. I understand that the allies considered that reparation enough.

juan.kerr

Shenshen wrote: »

Still is paying, actually, as I found out today.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v17/v17n6p19_reparations.html

That site seemed a bit fishy...for future reference I wouldn't be too eager to quote these lads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review

Fuinseog

Shenshen wrote: »

Much of what is now Poland used to be Germany. I understand that the allies considered that reparation enough.

and the Poles cleansed the areas of Germans. In the Czech Republic in 1946 it was not a crime to kill a German. a centuries old culture was wiped out overnight.

JoeGil

dttq wrote: »

Ok, I'm going to go against the advice of Basil Fawlty here, but in light of recent German moral pontificating on debt in countries like Ireland and Greece, am I the only one who sees hypocrisy here given Germany's own history? This is a country that within the space of 40 years, caused the two largest wars in Europe's history, which not only caused tens of millions of deaths, but also bankrupted large parts of Europe for decades, causing as much economic destruction in the process, as the destruction of lives. At least we, even if we didn't get our economic policies right, never destroyed the economies of other countries, bankrupting some of them for decades after the end of WWII.

Germany paid a huge price for the mistakes it made in the first half of the last century. Apart from whatever reparations had to be paid, it lost about 30% of its territory as a result of both wars. What was left was then split into a capitalist and a communist east - the rebuilding of the communist east has since cost the country trillions.

At this stage it's a case of lesson learnt for Germany and it has spent the last 50 years supporting the creation of a united Europe. The mistakes made in the past have been accepted and every effort made to ensure they are never repeated.

We now have our own crisis as a result of a period known in our history as the celtic tiger which bankrupted the country and forced us to seek outside aid in order to stay afloat. It's time we fessed up to the mistakes that were made, put measures in place to ensure they are never allowed happen again and stop trying to blame others for the homegrown mess.

Fuinseog

juan.kerr wrote: »

Germany is the reason so many countries want or think they need a united europe.

I'd gladly export Joe Duffy if you think it would help your friend.

sitting on your hole on complaining to Joe is not what Germans do. unlike this place your dole gets shortened the longer you are out of work.

golden lane

i have a brilliant idea......if every country was to live within their means.....

then germany would not have to pay to get them out of trouble.....

so they would have lots of money to buy land in siberia (putin would sell anything)...

then they would not need to start another war....

Fuinseog

We now have our own crisis as a result of a period known in our history as the celtic tiger which bankrupted the country and forced us to seek outside aid in order to stay afloat. It's time we fessed up to the mistakes that were made, put measures in place to ensure they are never allowed happen again and stop trying to blame others for the homegrown mess.[/QUOTE]

facing up to something and accepting responsibility is something the Irish do. We were ready to give the EU the middle finger when things were good and then all of a sudden we were crying out for them. without Germany we would have gone under .
we owe the Germans a lot more than they owe us.

Lawrence1895

juan.kerr wrote: »

The 'division' wasn't a 'punishment'. It was a political reality that the western allies didn't want the soviet Union annexing the entire country of Germany.

Reparations represented a fraction of what the should have been forced to pay. West Germany was 'rehabilitated' almost immediately for political expediency i.e. the threat to western europe from the Soviet Union.

There was minimal de-Nazification, they all just hid their Nazi party badges and slid back into civilian life as if nothing had happened.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_reparations_for_World_War_II

Some high ranked members legged it away to Brasil, Argentina, etc. But it was not the majority. Ordinary Germans burnt all which had to do with the NSDAP, because they were too afraid to wake up with a bullet in their head. Of course, stories like that were not as popular, as a high ranked SS officer lying in the sunshine of the Copacabana.

juan.kerr

Shenshen wrote: »

Much of what is now Poland used to be Germany. I understand that the allies considered that reparation enough.

You understand incorrectly. The western allies had no choice. The Soviet Union occupied and controlled all the affected territories.

It took a chunk from Germany and appended it to Poland so that it could keep the parts of Poland it annexed in 1939. The Soviets repopulated the new part of Poland with the Poles from the part of Poland that they held on to.

As such it was hardly 'reparations' for Poland, was it?

Fuinseog

Lars1916 wrote: »

Some high ranked members legged it away to Brasil, Argentina, etc. But it was not the majority. Ordinary Germans burnt all which had to do with the NSDAP, because they were too afraid to wake up with a bullet in their head. Of course, stories like that were not as popular, as a high ranked SS officer lying in the sunshine of the Copacabana.

just like some property developers and bankers legged it to america when the bubble burst and left ordinary folk to sort out their mess.

juan.kerr

Fuinseog wrote: »

sitting on your hole on complaining to Joe is not what Germans do.

No, I'm very sorry, you are right. The germans have other ways of dealing with problems. We have 2 World Wars ro confirm that.

Fuinseog

juan.kerr wrote: »

No, I'm very sorry, you are right. The germans have other ways of dealing with problems. We have 2 World Wars ro confirm that.

you are either trolling or need to get out more. have you ever spoken to a German without mentioning the war?

davet82

for such a shít OP this thread has some good reading in it

juan.kerr

Lars1916 wrote: »

Some high ranked members legged it away to Brasil, Argentina, etc. But it was not the majority. Ordinary Germans burnt all which had to do with the NSDAP, because they were too afraid to wake up with a bullet in their head. Of course, stories like that were not as popular, as a high ranked SS officer lying in the sunshine of the Copacabana.

Exactly. The concentration camp guards, the SS paramilitary death squads took up middle class jobs like bankers or factory managers.

juan.kerr

Fuinseog wrote: »

you are either trolling or need to get out more. have you ever spoken to a German without mentioning the war?

Of course I have. It's strange that you get so worked up about doctors looking down on you but are happy to share a bed with nazis.

juan.kerr

juan.kerr wrote: »

Of course I have. It's strange that you get so worked up about doctors looking down on you but are happy to share a bed with nazis.

And lest we forget they got even got military pensions.

golden lane

juan.kerr wrote: »

Exactly. The concentration camp guards, the SS paramilitary death squads took up middle class jobs like bankers or factory managers.

should they have lived off the dole..????

juan.kerr

golden lane wrote: »

should they have lived off the dole..????

No, they should have been sent to soviet work camps or executed.

Fratton Fred

juan.kerr wrote: »

golden lane wrote: »

should they have lived off the dole..????

No, they should have been sent to soviet work camps or executed.

By the time the concentration camps fell, most of the guards were kids from the Hitler youth who knew no better.

Lawrence1895

juan.kerr wrote: »

Exactly. The concentration camp guards, the SS paramilitary death squads took up middle class jobs like bankers or factory managers.

I would not call them 'ordinary Germans' or 'the majority of Germans'

Fuinseog

Lars1916 wrote: »

I would not call them 'ordinary Germans' or 'the majority of Germans'

Juan kerr would. he doesnt fraternise with the Boche.

juan.kerr

Lars1916 wrote: »

I would not call them 'ordinary Germans' or 'the majority of Germans'

Well the SS alone had 1.25 million members in Feb 1945 so over the course of the war upwards of 2 million would have passed through the SS. So yes, many of these were 'ordinary germans'.

It is estimated that out of roughly 70,000 members of the SS involved in crimes in German concentration camps, only between 1650 and 1700 were tried after the war.

That doesn't include the SS paramilitary death squads.

And let us not forget that the German people put Hitler in power knowing full well his hatred of the Jewish race.

juan.kerr

Fratton Fred wrote: »

By the time the concentration camps fell, most of the guards were kids from the Hitler youth who knew no better.

The 'kids' could have gone into any other branch of the military. They chose the SS.

Fuinseog

juan.kerr wrote: »

Of course I have. It's strange that you get so worked up about doctors looking down on you but are happy to share a bed with nazis.

what has this thread got to do with doctors?
thats right all germans are nazis. all irish are in the IRA.

Fuinseog

juan.kerr wrote: »

The 'kids' could have gone into any other branch of the military. They chose the SS.

well no, in the final stages of the war people were drafted into the SS. not all SS were mass murderers.

juan.kerr

Fuinseog wrote: »

Juan kerr would. he doesnt fraternise with the Boche.

As long as they know you know what they are up to they are okay. But NEVER trust them.

juan.kerr

Fuinseog wrote: »

well no, in the final stages of the war people were drafted into the SS. not all SS were mass murderers.

The final stages maybe, what about the other 5 plus years?

Lawrence1895

Let's give you one reason, why so many German 'kids' joined the SS. In the years after WW1, many Germans were disorientated, the nazi party found the right scapegoat (Jews), gave those kids some perspective...by using subtile methods like Xenophobia. Can't really blame the kids, but those, who brainwashed them.

juan.kerr

Lars1916 wrote: »

Let's give you one reason, why so many German 'kids' joined the SS. In the years after WW1, many Germans were disorientated, the nazi party found the right scapegoat (Jews), gave those kids some perspective...by using subtile methods like Xenophobia. Can't really blame the kids, but those, who brainwashed them.

Ah, the PC Brigade strikes again. It's not their fault...

Shenshen

juan.kerr wrote: »

That site seemed a bit fishy...for future reference I wouldn't be too eager to quote these lads.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Institute_for_Historical_Review

Ok, I wasn't aware of this.
But the figures are the same across a multitude of pages :

So far, German compensation payments to victims of National Socialist persecution now living in Israel have totalled approximately EUR 26.5 billion. About EUR 370 million is paid out annually in compensation pensions (largely under the Federal Compensation Act) and related payments to recipients in Israel. On top of this are substantial compensation payments for social security and the equalization of burdens. Following the establishment of the Remembrance, Responsibility and Future Foundation in 2000, compensation was also paid from its funds to former victims of forced labour.

http://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/EN/Aussenpolitik/Laender/Laenderinfos/01-Nodes/Israel_node.html

Finance Minister Yuval Steinitz will demand between 450 million to 1 billion euros in reparations from Germany on behalf of Jews forced into slave labor during the Holocaust, it emerged on Sunday.

Minister Steinitz will reportedly present German government with the demand on behalf of 30,000 Israeli survivors of forced labor in wartime ghettos, during a joint session scheduled to take place in early 2010 in Berlin.

Israeli officials estimate that according to a ghetto workers act passed by the German parliament in 2002, all of the 30,000 living forced labor survivors are entitled to a retroactive payment of approximately 15,000 euros each.

However, Finance Ministry officials say that according to the German government's calculations, the one-time payment is larger than that estimated by Israel, and reaches a total of 1 billion euros.

In addition to the one-time payment, the survivors are also entitled to a monthly allowance, which adds up to around 100 million euros a year.

http://www.haaretz.com/news/israel-to-seek-another-1b-euros-holocaust-in-reparations-from-germany-1.1739

kincsem

We are drowning and we are criticising the people who throw us a lifeline. The ba5tards.

dr.bollocko

mod:

juan.kerr banned.

CucaFace

kincsem wrote: »

We are drowning and we are criticising the people who throw us a lifeline. The ba5tards.

We were drowning, but the life jacket they gave us was filled with unfair weight.

The Irish people should should not be held to ranson for private debt.

And we especially should not then also be charged a high interest rate on this help, as a slap on the hand.

Lawrence1895

CucaFace wrote: »

We were drowning, but the life jacket they gave us was filled with unfair weight.

The Irish people should should not be held to ranson for private debt.

And we especially should not then also be charged a high interest rate on this help, as a slap on the hand.

I'm not 100% sure, but the interest rates were not decided by the German government.

But I know many Germans, including myself, who think, that the Bankers and Bondholders should have been targeted, not the most vulnerable, or hard working people in this country.

Apanachi

juan.kerr wrote: »

So you think they have changed?

And how they have changed!!!

If they hadn't, I wouldn't be on this planet anymore, they would have gotten rid of me as soon as I sepped of the plane.

Germans are very open to differents races and nationality, the few neo-nazis around give all Germans a bad name (and there really are only a few neo-nazis by comaprison)

Edit:

After reading tha absolute drivvel juan.kerr has been spouting, I pobably should have ignored his comment, however, I'll leave my comment here as I meant what I said, the Germans in general are a great lot of people and only very few of them are nazis or right-winged.

tony007

Sykk wrote: »

So, you're saying Germany shouldn't be repaid to billions that they've loaned other countries to solve their problems, because of what people who no longer exist done over 70 years ago?

OP for president!

If you extend that logic, the private bank debts shouldn't be paid by our children, yet this is what's gonna happen in Ireland.

RayCon

smash wrote: »

Stop living in the past.

Play "Living in the Past" .... LOUD !!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsCyC1dZiN8