Oculus Rift

TerrorFirmer

Mint Aero wrote: »

Gentlemen if I may can I ask a question? Ok here goes. What's it like? I've used the cheap put your phone in plastic goggles and it's unimpressive. It's like looking at your mobile screen with slight bit of depth and you can see the plastic mount around. It's not VR.

Is rift actually like being in the space? Vis a vis you can't see plastic in your peripheral vision nor the edge of a screen 3 or 4 cm from your eyes?

To be fair, 'proper' mobile VR headsets are pretty good, not as good as the Rift obviously but still very impressive.

A lot of the crappy cheap chinese VR headsets are total rubbish, pretty much like what you've described, and give VR a bad name.

Oculus Rift is like being actually physically in the virtual world. Mobile headsets like the Gear VR aren't quite as immersive or have the same FOV but they're still an excellent testament to the potential of the tech.

Dyr

Mint Aero wrote: »

Gentlemen if I may can I ask a question? Ok here goes. What's it like? I've used the cheap put your phone in plastic goggles and it's unimpressive. It's like looking at your mobile screen with slight bit of depth and you can see the plastic mount around. It's not VR.

Is rift actually like being in the space? Vis a vis you can't see plastic in your peripheral vision nor the edge of a screen 3 or 4 cm from your eyes?

Dunno about the rift CV1 because I havent used it. Have you used either of the rift DK models?

The Vive is real enough that you'll try to lean on walls or desks and fall over

That's plenty real for me

What those previous generation guys fretting about their 4k resolutions don't get is that it's all just 2D talk

2D is last generation now grandad.

Taylor365

DK2 for me was fine for ETS2 and Alien Isolation.

But for Skyrim/GTA it was horrible. Resolution is way too low for any type of detailed worlds.

For that reason, I'm waiting a few years to jump on board. Hopefully have something decent by 2020.

MarkAnthony

Thargor wrote: »

Yep, its obvious to me now that this generation whether OR or Vive is just the Alpha or Beta and is just too flawed, I was really worried there for a while because I kept my old pc on life support for as long as I could before I bought my current gaming pc and I thought Id bought at just the wrong time to not be fuly specced for VR but now I dont care, it'll be another 3-4 years before I own a VR rig anyway, bit relieved tbh.

IMHO Vive is a Dev kit, OR is a first generation product, both are going to get better with software updates. What the Vive sets out to do isn't entirely practical YET. However one has to be impressed with the leaps and bounds they brought the market on by AND that they've introduced some healthy competition.

The OR has everything very polished it just - I dunno how to describe it. There's advantages still to playing on a good monitor. I suppose it's a bit like the Amiga and the PC in a way. The Amiga was the better polished product but was reaching it's limits. The PC was a janky ass thing but the potential was limitless(ish).

Mint Aero wrote: »

Gentlemen if I may can I ask a question? Ok here goes. What's it like? I've used the cheap put your phone in plastic goggles and it's unimpressive. It's like looking at your mobile screen with slight bit of depth and you can see the plastic mount around. It's not VR.

Is rift actually like being in the space? Vis a vis you can't see plastic in your peripheral vision nor the edge of a screen 3 or 4 cm from your eyes?

The FoV on the OR was reduced to help counter the Screen Door Effect (SDE) you do, very occasionally, find yourself reaching the limits of its FoV if you're facing ahead and are looking the extremes of your peripheral vision. The Vive apparently doesn't suffer with that if you remove the foam but most reviews I've seen credit the OR with a slightly clearer, if less bright, screen.

Basically in Elite:Dangerous it's pretty mind blowing tbh.

Edit: Bambi reminded me there - it's real enough to have you trying to lean on stuff, it even gives me the occasional queasy feeling during low altitude fast maneuvers.

Also forgot to say the porn is awesome for anyone who's interested :pac:

jumbobreakfast

It's fair that people will not be convinced until they try it. However, it has to be said that if you try the Oculus Rift then it's not fair to comment on the HTC Vive unless you are exclusively going to be sitting down and playing sims. Also, playing legacy first and third person games designed for monitors using a third party hack is just not what these headsets are designed for. There are already over 200 VR games on the steam store, most of which work best when your are standing with motion controllers so at least try the positively reviewed games on that list before commenting on the Vive.

MarkAnthony

jumbobreakfast wrote: »

It's fair that people will not be convinced until they try it. However, it has to be said that if you try the Oculus Rift then it's not fair to comment on the HTC Vive unless you are exclusively going to be sitting down and playing sims. Also, playing legacy first and third person games designed for monitors using a third party hack is just not what these headsets are designed for. There are already over 200 VR games on the steam store, most of which work best when your are standing with motion controllers so at least try the positively reviewed games on that list before commenting on the Vive.

To see the issues with the Vive you don't need own or have used the headset. Indeed you don't need to have used any form of VR. I'll move on to motion controllers shortly.

Every reviewer has commented on the cabling issues with the Vive. It's an amazing piece of kit but it's still in the Dev kit stages. The Vive needs a wireless solution before it will truly do what it set out to do. The issue there is it won't be the OR or the Vive driving the market forward it will be the box solutions for phones and the PS4 (assuming a cheaper point of entry). The Vive is doing too much, too soon at a too high a price point. Am I glad they're doing it - absolutely! This is where the market will be in five years time, albeit with higher res, wireless HMDs. It'll be a case of shut up and take my money at that point.

Motion controllers - The Wii was considered the second coming, not because it was particularly groundbreaking but because it was novel and had good 'gameplay'. It was the very definition of casual - you don't spent the guts of €2K (PC+Vive) for casual.

There are some fantastic 'games' however they broadly do the same thing - now that's a criticism of gaming in general but it'll be AAA titles that shift these headsets eventually. I don't see publishers embracing roomscale. They'll get the display right with the option to use motion tracking if you want.

Moving back to controllers; the current gen of motion controllers just aren't there yet. We'll have to wait and see it Touch > Vive but purely on the basis of design and time it looks like touch is going to be where it's at - that said where it's at is going to be novelty value at best. Leap motion is already light years ahead of the two competing standards and there is very little you can't do with a standard controller/specialist controler like a HOTAS/wheel. Putting my actual hands into VR, like leap want to, so I can touch the T-rex/Joanna Angel and the thing respond - shut up and take my money, but 5 years off.

VR displays are awesome - standing is awesome. Motion controllers are pretty snazzy but as one of my favourite critic's has always pointed out they just don't work in the long term without feedback.

I'm not rubbishing the Vive or trying to big up the OR. Neither company is going to 'win' this. Like monitors eventually the technology will become a commodity, everyone will make them. It's absolutely clear that Steam will win the software distribution war, that's why Oculus have to lock up their store and make the money while they can.

FAILSAFE 00

MarkAnthony wrote: »

To see the issues with the Vive you don't need own or have used the headset. Indeed you don't need to have used any form of VR. I'll move on to motion controllers shortly.

Every reviewer has commented on the cabling issues with the Vive. It's an amazing piece of kit but it's still in the Dev kit stages. The Vive needs a wireless solution before it will truly do what it set out to do. The issue there is it won't be the OR or the Vive driving the market forward it will be the box solutions for phones and the PS4 (assuming a cheaper point of entry). The Vive is doing too much, too soon at a too high a price point. Am I glad they're doing it - absolutely! This is where the market will be in five years time, albeit with higher res, wireless HMDs. It'll be a case of shut up and take my money at that point.

Motion controllers - The Wii was considered the second coming, not because it was particularly groundbreaking but because it was novel and had good 'gameplay'. It was the very definition of casual - you don't spent the guts of €2K (PC+Vive) for casual.

There are some fantastic 'games' however they broadly do the same thing - now that's a criticism of gaming in general but it'll be AAA titles that shift these headsets eventually. I don't see publishers embracing roomscale. They'll get the display right with the option to use motion tracking if you want.

Moving back to controllers; the current gen of motion controllers just aren't there yet. We'll have to wait and see it Touch > Vive but purely on the basis of design and time it looks like touch is going to be where it's at - that said where it's at is going to be novelty value at best. Leap motion is already light years ahead of the two competing standards and there is very little you can't do with a standard controller/specialist controler like a HOTAS/wheel. Putting my actual hands into VR, like leap want to, so I can touch the T-rex/Joanna Angel and the thing respond - shut up and take my money, but 5 years off.

VR displays are awesome - standing is awesome. Motion controllers are pretty snazzy but as one of my favourite critic's has always pointed out they just don't work in the long term without feedback.

I'm not rubbishing the Vive or trying to big up the OR. Neither company is going to 'win' this. Like monitors eventually the technology will become a commodity, everyone will make them. It's absolutely clear that Steam will win the software distribution war, that's why Oculus have to lock up their store and make the money while they can.

I was skeptical about the motion controls on the Vive, even the goofy look of the controller but that all stopped when I first held the controller and then when I started to use it in the setup. Its actually fantastic. The haptic feedback in the controller is really great. I hope devs utilize it more.

Both VR headsets are consumer versions like it says on the tin but with oculus rift it is half the tin until they bring out their motion controllers which look nice.

MarkAnthony

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

I was skeptical about the motion controls on the Vive, even the goofy look of the controller but that all stopped when I first held the controller and then when I started to use it in the setup. Its actually fantastic. The haptic feedback in the controller is really great. I hope devs utilize it more.

Both VR headsets are consumer versions like it says on the tin but with oculus rift it is half the tin until they bring out their motion controllers which look nice.

I disagree - the thing that OR got right though was to allow me to disagree and keep €273. If I agree in future they can have some of the €273 for what is likely to be a more developed product.

FAILSAFE 00

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I disagree - the thing that OR got right though was to allow me to disagree and keep €273. If I agree in future they can have some of the €273 for what is likely to be a more developed product.

It's important to remember that the Rift was meant to launch with the Touch controllers as a unit but due to issues with the controller they had to launch without it. Hence the Xbox One controller in the box.

Even Oculus Rift feel that VR with motion controllers is the full VR experience. Otherwise they wouldn't have bothered developing it in the first place.

MarkAnthony

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

It's important to remember that the Rift was meant to launch with the Touch controllers as a unit but due to issues with the controller they had to launch without it. Hence the Xbox One controller in the box.

Even Oculus Rift feel that VR with motion controllers is the full VR experience. Otherwise they wouldn't have bothered developing it in the first place.

A happy accident then, although the Dev kits which meant that VR software was gotten to where it is never had them.

The main gaming use on PC for these headsets, other than the novelty, is Sim/Sim type games and racing games none of which are made better by motion controllers. Indeed for some of us the Rift/Vive is a tiny investment compared to some of the alternatives we could go for.

I've no doubt that in the fullness of time motion controllers will be useful for some AAA games. As I say I think that's about 5 years off. At the moment the cost of entry is the biggest bar for general casual adoption.

jumbobreakfast

right....I think I'll stick to the Vive thread from now on

Doge

Mint Aero wrote: »

Gentlemen if I may can I ask a question? Ok here goes. What's it like? I've used the cheap put your phone in plastic goggles and it's unimpressive. It's like looking at your mobile screen with slight bit of depth and you can see the plastic mount around. It's not VR.

Is rift actually like being in the space? Vis a vis you can't see plastic in your peripheral vision nor the edge of a screen 3 or 4 cm from your eyes?

I tried out the DK2 a few months ago, and tried one of the chinese plastic phone headsets for the first time yesterday with a quad hd screen phone.

Th difference is like night and day, you just dont feel "there" with those cheap phone headsets, the Oculus actually tricks your mind completely - to the point where you can feel almost all the sensations from the motion like you would experience in real life!

You can compare my experince with these 2 posts:

DK2
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99787493&postcount=11

Chinese Headset
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=99787493#post99787493

Doge

jumbobreakfast wrote: »

right....I think I'll stick to the Vive thread from now on

I thought this was the only thread!

Pissed off i missed out another thread this whole time!

MarkAnthony

jumbobreakfast wrote: »

right....I think I'll stick to the Vive thread from now on

Well as I've said indicated I don't think it helps anyone to blindly accept one as better than the other. The decisions made should be looked at. Of course the guts of a grand is a lot of cash for anyone (I include both OR and Rift here) so it's only natural for bias to creep in - again on both sides.

On a slightly different note I just changed the HUD colour in Elite:dangerous and used supersampling - looking a lot better! The PC is struggling a bit though trying to render a 2x res and keep the framerate useable.

I can see the nextgen of GPUs really boosting VR performance.

Dyr

MarkAnthony wrote: »

To see the issues with the Vive you don't need own or have used the headset. Indeed you don't need to have used any form of VR. I'll move on to motion controllers shortly.

Every reviewer has commented on the cabling issues with the Vive.

Every reviewer I've read that has commented on the cable only did so to express suprise that its not the problem they thought it would be, IGN was the one exception I noticed but then they're IGN

Same with the motion controllers, they work spectacularly. I guess you can speculate otherwise if you've never used them but all it shows is you've never used them. The touch controllers could be a better model if they have finer tracking but until they're out in the wild...

The biggest problem with the Vive is that space requirement.

Skerries

Bambi wrote: »

The biggest problem with the Vive is that space requirement.

stupid bed!

MarkAnthony

Bambi wrote: »

Every reviewer I've read that has commented on the cable only did so to express suprise that its not the problem they thought it would be, IGN was the one exception I noticed but then they're IGN

It's bigger issue than one reviewer. Simple common sense wins out here - cables get tangled.

Bambi wrote: »

Same with the motion controllers, they work spectacularly. I guess you can speculate otherwise if you've never used them but all it shows is you've never used them. The touch controllers could be a better model if they have finer tracking but until they're out in the wild...

I expect them to work flawlessly given the technology is over a decade old. The point being made was they're not a requirement for an excellent VR experience and what we have on both sides of the aisle is a shadow of what the technology could be - a la Leap.

Bambi wrote: »

The biggest problem with the Vive is that space requirement.

Which kinda goes to the impracticality of mobile VR in the first place. Personally once I do my den up in a couple of years time I'll be looking for room scale VR but I still can't see there being a massive uptake on it. It'll be a second headset for two player, mainly seated which is the way VR will go in the short - medium term.

FAILSAFE 00

MarkAnthony wrote: »

It's bigger issue than one reviewer. Simple common sense wins out here - cables get tangled.

Nope, no issue what so ever with tangled cables. You know its 3 cables together like one big cable, not 3 cables going all over the place.

MarkAnthony wrote: »

I expect them to work flawlessly given the technology is over a decade old. The point being made was they're not a requirement for an excellent VR [/B]experience and what we have on both sides of the aisle is a shadow of what the technology could be - a la Leap.

How can you know until you try it

Having used VR in both a seated position and standing position with motion controls I can say they are a vital part of the VR experience which is of course why Rift and Vive developed them in the first place. I think Rift users will be blown away by motion controls once they become available to them.

salamanca22

As someone who has done a lot of sit down and stand up VR they are both to be taken on their own merits.

Stand up VR is amazing. The awe you feel when you are actually in this new world is insane! It's like nothing you've ever seen before. it's really hard to put into words. It has to be experienced to understand, all the interviews and youtube videos in the world cannot even come close to giving you the experience. Honestly, unless you have tried it you cannot understand peoples love for it.

Sit down VR is just as wonderful, you can enter into other worlds such as VR sims which I cannot wait to gain traction. You can be more relaxed and take the experience as it comes at you, rather than manipulating it yourself. Non game simulations and movies are best here. I would probably be sitting 80% of the time when in VR.

in the end of the day, it's really up to the person. They might think stand up is naff and sit down is where its at or indeed the opposite. So what? If you like it one way then great, go for it! Do what you like!

About cable tangling, it does not happen. The cable is thick and manageable.

MarkAnthony

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

How can you know until you try it

Because motion controllers have been around in other iterations for ages.

Each to there own at the end of the day - if you're happy I'm happy the more people that get involved in VR the better the tech will get.

jumbobreakfast

I understand where you are coming from; the classic misconception about roomscale VR with tracked controllers is that it's just a small 3DTV stuck to your face and the controllers are just fancy wii-motes. I'm sure you already realise that the 3DTV comparison is innacurate so, is it such a leap to trust the reviewers when they say how revolutionary it is to have 1:1 tracking of controllers (+haptic feedback) in VR? The other classic mistake that people make is that they want to play battlefield or whatever their favourite game is in VR and then are dissappointed because it just doesnt work in VR despite Oculus reccomending against it for years. The only flatgames that transfer well to VR are cockpit simulators (good for you) but there are tonnes of new, compelling (addictive? ) VR games that are nothing like the games I used to play with keyboard and mouse.

If you bought the Rift mostly for racing and flying sims then you bought the best headset for you (and you saved money). I enjoyed reminiscing with you about retro flight sims earlier in the thread and was looking forward to hearing about your experience playing sims in the Rift. Instead, you were making broad sweeping statements about the current state of VR based on your seated setup and talking with authority about VR technology that you have not tried yet.

Dyr

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Nope, no issue what so ever with tangled cables. You know its 3 cables together like one big cable, not 3 cables going all over the place.

Was playing Hot Dog's Horse shoes & Hand grenades (stupid title but a really impressive game, given it's just one dude pumping out updates regularly.

Anyway, he's created a breaching environment and its awesome. It's like a kill house dry run for a swat 4 game, the potential is massive.

Point being not once while I was playing did I notice the cable or these damn beta controllers intruding on the experience

What does interfere is having to be aware of your real world boundaries. I swear to god, I'll ditch the sofa and chairs and live japanesey style just for more space

MarkAnthony

jumbobreakfast wrote: »

I understand where you are coming from; the classic misconception about roomscale VR with tracked controllers is that it's just a small 3DTV stuck to your face and the controllers are just fancy wii-motes. I'm sure you already realise that the 3DTV comparison is innacurate so, is it such a leap to trust the reviewers when they say how revolutionary it is to have 1:1 tracking of controllers (+haptic feedback) in VR? The other classic mistake that people make is that they want to play battlefield or whatever their favourite game is in VR and then are dissappointed because it just doesnt work in VR despite Oculus reccomending against it for years. The only flatgames that transfer well to VR are cockpit simulators (good for you) but there are tonnes of new, compelling (addictive? ) VR games that are nothing like the games I used to play with keyboard and mouse.

If you bought the Rift mostly for racing and flying sims then you bought the best headset for you (and you saved money). I enjoyed reminiscing with you about retro flight sims earlier in the thread and was looking forward to hearing about your experience playing sims in the Rift. Instead, you were making broad sweeping statements about the current state of VR based on your seated setup and talking with authority about VR technology that you have not tried yet.

There seems to be a huge amount of emotion in some of these posts - not just from yourself. I do wish people could have a conversation without getting worked up.

It's not unreasonable to have a discussion on the current state of VR and not have had access to almost two grands worth of kit. One can look at the various videos and reviews out there and extrapolate based on their experience of other tech.

It's not as if this is all completely novel and fair enough if your requirements have been met great. VR in it's current state does not have mass market appeal and that's a simple fact.

Dyr

MarkAnthony wrote: »

It's not unreasonable to have a discussion on the current state of VR and not have had access to almost two grands worth of kit. One can look at the various videos and reviews out there and extrapolate based on their experience of other tech.

Thing is that your extrapolations seems to be based on a large amount of cognitive bias, I suspect due to a certain level of purchase self justification.

MarkAnthony

Bambi wrote: »

Thing is that your extrapolations seems to be based on a large amount of cognitive bias, I suspect due to a certain level of purchase self justification.

Quite, as I said above. I believe that the reverse is also very much the case again as indicated above.

FAILSAFE 00

Bambi wrote: »

Was playing Hot Dog's Horse shoes & Hand grenades (stupid title but a really impressive game, given it's just one dude pumping out updates regularly.

Ha, just played it last night for the first time. Absolutely amazing.

Picking up what I think is an M4 with one controller and using the other to pick up a mag and load it. Then attaching the sight and cocking the gun.

Opps, forgot to click the safety Then aiming down range.

Its a great example for VR immersion with motion controls.

FAILSAFE 00

MarkAnthony wrote: »

There seems to be a huge amount of emotion in some of these posts - not just from yourself. I do wish people could have a conversation without getting worked up.

It's not unreasonable to have a discussion on the current state of VR and not have had access to almost two grands worth of kit. One can look at the various videos and reviews out there and extrapolate based on their experience of other tech.

It's not as if this is all completely novel and fair enough if your requirements have been met great. VR in it's current state does not have mass market appeal and that's a simple fact.

Its a good discussion to have only you can't seem to lend any weight to your argument regarding motion controls not being a big part of VR.

Rift and Vive both believe motion controls are a major part of VR.

Vive users here have concurred that motion controls are a big part of immersion when it comes to VR.

Reviewers who have experienced motion controls in VR have also stated the same.

Would you consider my opinion if I said how un-immersive the Rift headset is if I had never tried it? No one would consider it.

Dyr

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Ha, just played it last night for the first time. Absolutely amazing.

Picking up what I think is an M4 with one controller and using the other to pick up a mag and load it. Then attaching the sight and cocking the gun.

Opps, forgot to click the safety Then aiming down range.

Its a great example for VR immersion with motion controls.

Yeah been there with the safety

I've put a lot of time in on the indoor range but the first time I saw a human target up at the top of a stairs I emptied a clip and hit nothing . I switched to the auto shotgun gun, poked it around the corner and blind fired till it went click..

I dont think I can go back to a FPS after this

It's going to be interesting to see how they figure out motion in this sort of game, I know one of the universities in the US has patented a little electronic device that sits beside the ear and fool the inner canal that you're moving

I saw one guy come up with sticking the motion controller in his trousers and having the motion of him walking on the spot mapped to in game movement.

MarkAnthony

FAILSAFE 00 wrote: »

Its a good discussion to have only you can't seem to lend any weight to your argument regarding motion controls not being a big part of VR.

Rift and Vive both believe motion controls are a major part of VR.

Vive users here have concurred that motion controls are a big part of immersion when it comes to VR.

Reviewers who have experienced motion controls in VR have also stated the same.

Would you consider my opinion if I said how un-immersive the Rift headset is if I had never tried it? No one would consider it.

We're simply not going to reach a consensus. If we were then we'd have the same units.

We'll see where the market goes in the next few years. I've not said that I don't see the point of motion controls, but that in their current implementation they have a long way to go. Are they fun, yes I'm sure they are - are they worth €250 - I'm not convinced.

I should get to play with a Vive over the next couple of weeks but unless there's some absolutely amazing game that's been hiding somewhere I've never been a fan of casual gaming so I can't see it changing my opinion.

Dyr

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Quite, as I said above. I believe that the reverse is also very much the case again as indicated above.

Here's thing I'm going to comment on the rift Vs Vive for comfort because I haven't worn a CV1

I can't comment on the quality of the respective ear phones either for the same reason

I can comment on the difference between roomscale (Vive) and seated VR (Rift) experiences because I use both so when someone who hasn't passes a remark that roomscale isn't there yet I can safely say it's simply not true. It's there and room scale where VR should be. Without it all you have is a step up from track IR. If that's all you wanted (and initially it's all I wanted from VR) then seated might be fine but it's not the full picture at all.

Same with those Vive controllers, they are a hugely impressive solution, 1 to 1 mapping in real time and so natural that you barely notice them. If you haven't used them