Kazakhstan v Ireland match thread - 7/9/12 - 17:00

noodler

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Looking at this thread, it's obvious that there are two camps, and they're both easy to spot.

Those who are content to ignore the:

LostinBlanch wrote: »

All in the hope that we can by some miracle manage to qualify for Brazil so they can stick their tricolour covers over their car mirrors backwards while humming the chorus of the Fields of Athenry over and over again for 30 minutes.

LostinBlanch wrote: »

The second group, know their football and can see what's going on, and know that we have to change otherwise we are going to go backwards by decades in development.

Laughable and insulting summation of the situation to be honest.

In fact, I'd say alot of the Ole Ole Ole brigade you trying to portray as being pro-Trap actually criticise him non-stop.


Still though, theres more to this then "I am right and everyone one who doesn't agree is stupid and fairweathered".

briany

tolosenc wrote: »

I'm a big supporter of Trap, but there is something seriously wrong with his man management. And it's being reflected on the pitch, which is not OK. Though we'll probably pull a Moscow-esque performance against Germany in October and all will be rosy. We have a game at home to the Faroes in June. If we have 13 points or more after that, we're on course. Less than 12 and Trap should go.

The "Miracle of Moscow" shall not be repeated. Difference between then and now is that the Ireland players don't look like they want to know for the most part, that they are unhappy with the current mood within the team and are still feeling the sting from a humiliating Euros which is has shaken the confidence badly. Expecting a comfortable German win which will only add fuel to the fire.

On a side note about Kazakhstan, I do think that if they can learn from this game and keep better defensive organisation, they could nick a result here and there throughout this group.

the realpigiron

Rekop dog wrote: »

^^^ if you think this current crop of players is comparable in quality to previous Irish teams listed you really shouldn't put yourself in the people of 'know their football' category. It's a fairly shocking post tbh.

You didn't even read what he said did ya. He didn't say that the current crop of players are comparable to the previous Irish teams that played in big tournaments under Charlton and McCarthy. What he did say was that the teams that played in big tournaments for Ireland before played up to or beyond what was expected of them, under Trap during the Euro 2012 the team failed to punch it's weight.

Trap's team weren't expected to emerge form the Group they were in, but they were expected to perform better than they did. There was also expectation that - here's an Ireland team in a big tournament again, they're going to give it their best shot because they don't take qualification for granted. That didn't happen with Trap's team.

Trap did a good job instilling professionalism in the team when he took over from Staunton, but he's well past his sell by date now. Trap should have left after the Euro's he's only hanging around for the pay off, and Ireland will stagnate and go backways while he waits to get his money.

Strawberry Fields

Robbie Brady gets a call up hopefully he gets game time
http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/worldcup/2012/0908/336837-brady-called-up-to-ireland-squad/

Or else mcclean could be getting the boot.

kitakyushu

dfx- wrote: »

I still haven't seen the Kazakhstan goal. Was it by any chance funnier than my favourite ever goal?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH64IfJLy8g

Fortunately McShane wasn't playing yesterday so not as many opportunities to see some 'keystone-cop' defending like with that San Marino thunderbolt.

Rekop dog

the realpigiron wrote: »

Rekop dog wrote: »

^^^ if you think this current crop of players is comparable in quality to previous Irish teams listed you really shouldn't put yourself in the people of 'know their football' category. It's a fairly shocking post tbh.

You didn't even read what he said did ya. He didn't say that the current crop of players are comparable to the previous Irish teams that played in big tournaments under Charlton and McCarthy.

I did read it, he says the previous teams never produced such a dire performance. Those listed Irish teams where all better than the current one, ranging from a good bit better to substantially better. Weaker teams are logically more prone to producing dire performances so it's not in any way a fair comparison.

Banjaxed82

briany wrote: »

On a side note about Kazakhstan, I do think that if they can learn from this game and keep better defensive organisation, they could nick a result here and there throughout this group.

Wouldn't be as confident. Can't see Austria, Sweden or Germany playing such awful, predictable hoof ball against them as we did.

Anyway, when Doyle came on, he literally went at them and they crumbled. Like a lot of average teams we've played, we made them look like world beaters. You get at these guys and they're not worth a sh*te defensively.

Can't see other teams making our mistake.

clubberlang12

Rekop dog wrote: »

I did read it, he says the previous teams never produced such a dire performance. Those listed Irish teams where all better than the current one, ranging from a good bit better to substantially better. Weaker teams are logically more prone to producing dire performances so it's not in any way a fair comparison.

That is nonsense. A performance is not just about the final result and the ability of a team does not always induce a good performance. Performance comes from determination, application and organisation...........none of which were present during the Euro's.

the realpigiron

Rekop dog wrote: »

I did read it, he says the previous teams never produced such a dire performance. Those listed Irish teams where all better than the current one, ranging from a good bit better to substantially better. Weaker teams are logically more prone to producing dire performances so it's not in any way a fair comparison.

He can answer that for himself.

As it happens Ireland under Jack Charlton had a worse result against Leichtenstein which must have been a dire performance too.

The point that people are making I think is that the game is up for Trap, and even Trap knows it, but that we are stuck with him because the FAI can't/wont sack him. Hopefully he can get some coherent performances from the team for the rest of the campaign, but given the weird decisions in selection and the growing disharmony between members of the squad and the management, it's highly unlikely.

If the FAI had any money, Trap would be gone.

Renn

kitakyushu wrote: »

Fortunately Henderson wasn't playing yesterday so not as many opportunities to see some 'keystone-cop' defending like with that San Marino thunderbolt.

Gotta back up McShane here

billyhead

the realpigiron wrote: »

He can answer that for himself.

As it happens Ireland under Jack Charlton had a worse result against Leichtenstein which must have been a dire performance too.

The point that people are making I think is that the game is up for Trap, and even Trap knows it, but that we are stuck with him because the FAI can't/wont sack him. Hopefully he can get some coherent performances from the team for the rest of the campaign, but given the weird decisions in selection and the growing disharmony between members of the squad and the management, it's highly unlikely.

If the FAI had any money, Trap would be gone.

True. If he was the English boss he would be gone a long time ago

devotional1993

the realpigiron wrote: »

Rekop dog wrote: »

I did read it, he says the previous teams never produced such a dire performance. Those listed Irish teams where all better than the current one, ranging from a good bit better to substantially better. Weaker teams are logically more prone to producing dire performances so it's not in any way a fair comparison.

He can answer that for himself.

As it happens Ireland under Jack Charlton had a worse result against Leichtenstein which must have been a dire performance too.

The point that people are making I think is that the game is up for Trap, and even Trap knows it, but that we are stuck with him because the FAI can't/wont sack him. Hopefully he can get some coherent performances from the team for the rest of the campaign, but given the weird decisions in selection and the growing disharmony between members of the squad and the management, it's highly unlikely.

If the FAI had any money, Trap would be gone.

Dunno about that lad, id prefer a poor win than a great performance loss

briany

Banjaxed82 wrote: »

Wouldn't be as confident. Can't see Austria, Sweden or Germany playing such awful, predictable hoof ball against them as we did.

Anyway, when Doyle came on, he literally went at them and they crumbled. Like a lot of average teams we've played, we made them look like world beaters. You get at these guys and they're not worth a sh*te defensively.

Can't see other teams making our mistake.

I'm not saying they'll be in contention for second but with what we saw in Astana, they have every reason to fancy their chances against Ireland in the return game at least. They held Austria scoreless in their last campaign too (mind you Austria could have just been damned unlucky). They've some reason to believe they can mix it but their defense is very poor and it's unlikely that they will improve this but if they can, somehow, maybe they'll get a few more points than expected.

Neil3030

doomed wrote: »

By the way, why on earth do they keep giving Bill the gig?

Well imo he's one of, if not the best presenters I've ever watched, and can still whip up a great debate. I really am not looking forward to him retiring.

Seaneh

Right, I missed it, what did McClean tweet that got him in trouble?

Never mind, found it.

Fair play to him.

Trap out, bring back mick, etc.

Fight_Night

This is fairly off topic I know, but out of interest, when we played Armenia they looked like a great(well decent) footballing side and passed the ball well, is this because we made them look good or were they actually decent?

Fight_Night

devotional1993 wrote: »

Dunno about that lad, id prefer a poor win than a great performance loss

The thing is though, if we give a great performance against a team like Kazakhstan, we're going to win ten times out of ten. That kind of logic does hold water when we play against teams better than us, ie. when we play Germany because lets face it, Germany is nearly always going to have a better squad than us.

I know what you're saying and I'd agree that a win is a win, but if we performed well we would have won that game comfortably, there is no way that Kazakh squad could outplay us on a good performance. With that said when was the last time we actually saw a good Irish performance... /rant

briany

Neil3030 wrote: »

Well imo he's one of, if not the best presenters I've ever watched, and can still whip up a great debate. I really am not looking forward to him retiring.

Mmmmhmmm. Bill's an institution at this stage. Sad to think that he one day will hang it up and you know RTE would be giving the gig to those middle aged, exciting up and comers, the crown princes of anti charisma, Collins and Moloney.

Seaneh

Fight_Night wrote: »

This is fairly off topic I know, but out of interest, when we played Armenia they looked like a great(well decent) footballing side and passed the ball well, is this because we made them look good or were they actually decent?

They play positive football, but the caveman ****e we play makes them look a lot better than they are.

noodler

Seaneh wrote: »

Right, I missed it, what did McClean tweet that got him in trouble?

Never mind, found it.

Fair play to him.

Trap out, bring back mick, etc.

Yes, all fringe players should be allowed waltz into the squad and publicly slate their team mates seconds after a performance just because he didn't get a game.

Fair play to him etc.

Seaneh wrote: »

They play positive football, but the caveman ****e we play makes them look a lot better than they are.

Armenia trounced Slovakia 4-0 and 3-1 AND held Russia 0-0.

Our results against them turned out to be very good wins in the end.

the realpigiron

briany wrote: »

Mmmmhmmm. Bill's an institution at this stage. Sad to think that he one day will hang it up and you know RTE would be giving the gig to those middle aged, exciting up and comers, the crown princes of anti charisma, Collins and Moloney.

The inertia in RTE is strong, any up and comer who did show a bit of talent or charisma wouldn't get a look in. Richie Sadlier ruffled the feathers of Giles and particularly Brady last night. It will be interesting to see if he gets gigs on the lead panel in the future when one of them isn't available for example, or will he be squeezed out.

wonderfullife

markesmith wrote: »

Probably posted already

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rIR-_eXihpA

I can't believe that Giles or Brady privately believe what they're saying, and it's just plain awkward from the 3 minute mark on.

Fair play to Sadlier, and the two old boys sound like Bertie Ahern apologists. What is Brady at like?

Usually a big fan of Sadlier as a pundit and while i appreciate his sentiment i think he started this clip badly.

"let's dare not celebrate this result"

Sorry Richie but we're allowed celebrate a win. To imply otherwise is wrong. Yes the opposition was poor, yes we played fairly muck and no the result doesn't paper over the cracks in the team.......but it is a win and as supporters we surely can celebrate a win irrespective of how it is achieved.

desaparecidos wrote: »

How can you sit and watch an utterly hopeless setup and be happy to get a lucky win against a ****e team?

I came from a weak country in terms of GAA, whom I support and I support a club soccer team who over the last couple of years have been relegated multiple times, so yes I do have clue about "supporting" a team when they are not going well.

Some teams just don't have the resources to be any better and that's fair enough, but in terms of our international side, under a competent manager we could play so much better, and achieve much better results. Under Trap, results usually come via blind luck, or by just strangling the life out of a game.

A win is a win. Portugal scraped past Luxembourg 2-1 away. Their players and fans celebrated at the final whistle. Probably relief as much as anything. This was the world ranked 4th team against the 106th. It's a very similar situation and yes i'm sure similar debates are ongoing in the Portuguese media and in pubs, but fans can still celebrate any win.

wonderfullife

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Looking at this thread, it's obvious that there are two camps, and they're both easy to spot.

Those who are content to ignore the:

• Sh*t on a stick football.
• Playing players who aren't international standard - Ward & Green anyone?
• Continued refusal to play breakthrough players in favour of yes men cloggers.
• Poor communications from the management (I use that term advisedly)leading to fall outs with any kind of creative players.
• Continual unwillingness or inability to change
• Stubborness, can be a positive thing some times but not when allied to the above.

All in the hope that we can by some miracle manage to qualify for Brazil so they can stick their tricolour covers over their car mirrors backwards while humming the chorus of the Fields of Athenry over and over again for 30 minutes. All the while watching whatever group of players Il Duce scrapes together produce "performances" on the field that shame other Irish teams.
Look, it doesn't matter there's a bandwagon we want to jump on, and don't you dare do anything that threaten our dream. Come to think of it, I heard the same arguments in favour of keeping Staunton on, until things got so bad they shut up.

The second group, know their football and can see what's going on, and know that we have to change otherwise we are going to go backwards by decades in development. They know that after the absolute shambles of Staunton era, that Trap was the right man then. Someone who was needed to steady the ship and give some semblance of actual management. The players responded well, because they knew there was some coherent organisation to the way the team was run.

But Trap has stayed too long and is now holding the team back with his problems highlighted above. He is too rigid, too doctrinaire and has done something that I never thought any manager could do, make an Irish team in a major finals play so badly that they were less than the sum of their parts. The teams in Euro 88, Italy 90, USA 94 and Japan 2002 would never have produced such dire performances. A lot of the Trap defenders on here might be too young to remember that Charlton blooded and played younger players before USA 94, Alan Kelly, Phil Babb, MacAteer and they produced the goods in the finals. Compare and contrast the treatment meted out by Trap to McCarthy and McClean


We were never going to be world beaters and didn't expect to be, but we expected to add something to the tournament, to be able to give a performance that meant that we could beat the best in the world, or at least give them a hell of a fright.

We played above ourselves, with Trap we play well within ourselves.

Italia 90


Packie Bonner Goalkeeper Glasgow Celtic
Chris Morris Defender Glasgow Celtic
Stephen Staunton Defender Liverpool
Mick McCarthy Defender Milwall
Kevin Moran Defender Blackburn Rovers
Ronnie Whelan Midfielder Liverpool
Paul McGrath Defender Aston Villa
Ray Houghton Midfielder Liverpool FC
John Aldridge Forward Real Sociedad
Tony Cascarino Forward Aston Villa
Kevin Sheedy Midfielder Everton
David O'Leary Defender Arsenal
Andy Townsend Midfielder Norwich City
Chris Hughton Defender Tottenham Hotspur
Bernie Slaven Midfielder Middlesboro
John Sheridan Midfielder Sheffield Wednesday
Niall Quinn Forward Manchester City
Frank Stapleton Forward Blackburn Rovers
David Kelly Forward Leicester City
John Byrne Forward Le Harve
Alan McLoughlin Midfielder Swindon Town
Gerry Peyton Goalkeeper Bournmouth


Most of the starting 11 played for top clubs. Of the squad, 6 had won the top flight title in England in the previous 5 years (Staunton, Whelan, Houghton, Sheedy, Aldridge, O' Leary). Even bringing the likes of the Italia 90 squad into this discussion highlights the dearth of talent available to the current manager and future managers.

For the record even that Irish squad, with all that talent, were absolutely dire away to Hungary in the qualifiers for Italia 90.......Hungary were no great shakes either. Good teams can and do put in bad performances against minnows. Happens at club level all the time. And average/poor teams can do likewise, probably more often.

USA 94

1
Packie Bonner Goalkeeper Glasgow Celtic
Denis Irwin Defender Manchester United
Terry Phelan Defender Manchester City
Kevin Moran Defender Blackburn Rovers
Paul McGrath Defender Aston Villa
Roy Keane Midfielder Manchester United
Andy Townsend Midfielder Aston Villa
Ray Houghton Midfielder Aston Villa
John Aldridge Forward Tranmere Rovers
John Sheridan Midfielder Sheffield Wednesday
Steve Staunton Midfielder Aston Villa
Gary Kelly Defender Leeds United
Alan Kernaghan Defender Manchester City
Phil Babb Defender Coventry City
Tommy Coyne Forward Motherwell
Tony Cascarino Forward Chelsea
Eddie McGoldrick Midfielder Arsenal
Ronnie Whelan Midfielder Liverpool FC
Alan McLoughlin Midfielder Portsmouth
David Kelly Forward Wolverhampton Wanderers
Jason McAteer Midfielder Bolton Wanderers
Alan Kelly Goalkeeper Sheffield Wednesday

The average age of the USA 94 squad = 28.6 years
The average age of the squad v Kazakhstan = 26.4 years

Starting 11 v Italy Giants Stadium average age = 28.6 years
Starting 11 v Kazakhstan = 27.0 years

This is not purely about giving youth a chance, the stats show we have a young team/squad as it is compared to previous years. It's how to get the best out of them.

Also let's not rewrite history. Alan Kelly didn't get a game in USA 94, Packie Bonner started every match. I presume you mean Gary Kelly anyway but even he only got a chance because Irwin was suspended for the Norway match. Charlton didn't have much choice. McAteer made 3 sub appearances in the tournament and Phil Babb, at the time, was one of the best defenders in the country.

This wasn't a brave Jack Charlton throwing all those lads in at the deep end, giving youth a chance as you suggest. McAteer, for example, had 2 terrific seasons with Bolton and was one of the most sought after midfiedlers in England yet only made 3 appearances from the bench (with 1 start v Norway).

I guess my overall point is this: we don't have any way similar levels of talent nowadays to pick from. If there were stand-out young talent, similar to Roy Keane in 1994 they would be picked.


I think Trap is making mistakes and lots of them but there's no point saying previous Irish teams would not have produced such an inept performance, as those squads you mentioned were packed with the cream of talent in English football. The focus should be on whether this Irish squad is capable of better (yes, obviously) and would blooding the new talent help (probably, yes). Would most of us here pick a different starting 11 v Germany (yes). So i agree Trap is making a lot of mistakes but he is in a results based job, so he can only be judged at the end of the campaign.

Corholio

wonderfullife wrote: »

Usually a big fan of Sadlier as a pundit and while i appreciate his sentiment i think he started this clip badly.

"let's dare not celebrate this result"

Sorry Richie but we're allowed celebrate a win. To imply otherwise is wrong. Yes the opposition was poor, yes we played fairly muck and no the result doesn't paper over the cracks in the team.......but it is a win and as supporters we surely can celebrate a win irrespective of how it is achieved.
.

In fairness he's not really ordering supporters not to celebrate, it's simply a phrase to demonstrate how absolutely shocking we were. Not that we should be celebrating in any sort of way anyway. Bit of a touchy, fickle response in fairness.

madma

we somehow scraped the 3 points, its best to forget about this game and just hope its a wakeup call to the players.. really hope this meadia backlash spurs them on for the germany match.. its up to Trap now to sort this mess out with the players.. he's got to get gibson,mclean, long etc sorted out and have them ready for the german game..if so ya neve rknow what could happen against zee germans


76 pages on this game

cant wait for the match on tuesday = another disaster

Father Damo

dfx- wrote: »

I still haven't seen the Kazakhstan goal. Was it by any chance funnier than my favourite ever goal?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lH64IfJLy8g

Jesus. Even watching that now my jaw drops and my eyes close :pac:

godeas16 wrote: »

Robbie Brady gets a call up hopefully he gets game time

http://www.rte.ie/sport/soccer/worldcup/2012/0908/336837-brady-called-up-to-ireland-squad/



Or else mcclean could be getting the boot.

See how long it takes Trap to fall out with him.

I actually just only got around to watching the goals now. Ironically it would appear that (hopefully) our worst match in the group featured the best goal, great strike by Doyle.

clubberlang12

wonderfullife wrote: »

Italia 90



Most of the starting 11 played for top clubs. Of the squad, 6 had won the top flight title in England in the previous 5 years (Staunton, Whelan, Houghton, Sheedy, Aldridge, O' Leary). Even bringing the likes of the Italia 90 squad into this discussion highlights the dearth of talent available to the current manager and future managers.

While the on-going argument over the last year or two about none of our current players playing for the top clubs holds some sway on the face of it, you have to remember how much top flight football has evolved since the early 90's and the standard of quality of players is much higher now than then. There was also the matter of the foreigner rule and Irish players counted as assimilated players. Had the current crop of Irish players(i'll include Given and Duff as this argument has being going on since qualifying last year) been around then i would hazard a speculative guess that the likes of Given, Dunne, O'Shea, Duff, McGeady, Keane, Doyle would be with the top clubs in England at the time. I would also speculate that as promising young players, ala Babb, McAteer, etc that you mentioned, the likes of McClean, McCarthy, Coleman, Long would be in or around the top clubs also.

The flip side of the argument is that if you were to take the aforementioned past squads who would make it into any of the current top club sides. My guess is obviously Keane and then a McGrath at his prime. Irwin possibly also but there is quite a number of current premier league full backs who play i would consider the same level of player, e.g Baines, not at a top club.

On the Best EPL Striker thread we can see consensus that the likes of Cantona, Hughes, Fowler, Hasselbaink, etc who would have been considered the best attacking players of the period wouldn't get into the top 10 list. That shows how much the quality of the league has improved since then.

wonderfullife

clubberlang12 wrote: »

.........

The flip side of the argument is that if you were to take the aforementioned past squads who would make it into any of the current top club sides. My guess is obviously Keane and then a McGrath at his prime. Irwin possibly also but there is quite a number of current premier league full backs who play i would consider the same level of player, e.g Baines, not at a top club.

On the Best EPL Striker thread we can see consensus that the likes of Cantona, Hughes, Fowler, Hasselbaink, etc who would have been considered the best attacking players of the period wouldn't get into the top 10 list. That shows how much the quality of the league has improved since then.

It simply does not work like that.

Carl Lewis would have beaten Jesse Owens by 15 metres had they ever raced. Federer would beat Borg in straight sets, Tiger Woods would dismantle Sam Snead, Ronnie O' Sullivan would destroy Joe Davis etc

Because what you are doing there is directly comparing eras as if they were the same. Directly comparing a 1988 Lewis with a 1938 Owens, a 2008 Federer with a 1978 Borg, a 2000 Woods with a 1937 Snead or a 2005 Ronnie with a 1930s Joe Davis.

All anybody can be is amongst the elite in their era. So when you talk about the likes of Jesse Owens, Bjorn Borg, Sam Snead, Joe Davis, they were all amongst the best in their era. If they had access to the technology, nutrition, coaching, health care, transport, information that the modern athletes have they would likely still have been as good/better as their modern counterparts. It's open to debate and it's fun to debate IF they had access to modern methods, but what you definitely can't do is go for the direct comparison route.

Same story here - you can't say a 1993 Dennis Irwin isn't as good as Leighton Baines. Irwin was one of the best, most consistent full backs in world football, if he was starting his career today he'd have a lot more advantages in terms of all the things i mentioned above (nutrition, coaching etc) and probably be just as good/better as any of the full backs around.

As i said, all anybody can do is compete to the best of their ability in their eras. A direct comparison is silly.

clubberlang12

wonderfullife wrote: »

It simply does not work like that.

Carl Lewis would have beaten Jesse Owens by 15 metres had they ever raced. Federer would beat Borg in straight sets, Tiger Woods would dismantle Sam Snead, Ronnie O' Sullivan would destroy Joe Davis etc

Because what you are doing there is directly comparing eras as if they were the same. Directly comparing a 1988 Lewis with a 1938 Owens, a 2008 Federer with a 1978 Borg, a 2000 Woods with a 1937 Snead or a 2005 Ronnie with a 1930s Joe Davis.

All anybody can be is amongst the elite in their era. So when you talk about the likes of Jesse Owens, Bjorn Borg, Sam Snead, Joe Davis, they were all amongst the best in their era. If they had access to the technology, nutrition, coaching, health care, transport, information that the modern athletes have they would likely still have been as good/better as their modern counterparts. It's open to debate and it's fun to debate IF they had access to modern methods, but what you definitely can't do is go for the direct comparison route.

Same story here - you can't say a 1993 Dennis Irwin isn't as good as Leighton Baines. Irwin was one of the best, most consistent full backs in world football, if he was starting his career today he'd have a lot more advantages in terms of all the things i mentioned above (nutrition, coaching etc) and probably be just as good/better as any of the full backs around.

As i said, all anybody can do is compete to the best of their ability in their eras. A direct comparison is silly.

Unfortunately, when you want to use the "No Irish players play for the top clubs in England" all you can do is compare the standard and regulations of the league then and as it stands now. The truth is, had the top tier of English football being as open to playing foreign players as it is now most of those players mentioned would more than likely never have played for the top sides.

You argue that "all you can do is be amongst the elite in your era". Who are you comparing Irwin, Babb, Cascarino, Staunton, Whelan, etc, etc, to? The elite in what area? A sub-standard English league? You can't compare the English league as it stood then as it stands now. Considering the finance available and the draw of the Premiership as one of the top 3 leagues in the world to attract players you may as well compare those players to other European based players if that was the case. And in doing so the ,majority of those Irish players fall well short.

For you to assume with nutrition and modern coaching that the Irish players you mentioned would break into the top clubs at the minute is just as speculative as myself to assume that the current players i mentioned wpould be plying their trade with the top clubs of that time. Either we are both wrong, or we are both right, but one argument doesn't assume anymore note as they are both speculation.

For your example with regards athletes you've decided to compare atheletes with a minimum 30 years gap between them. Of course modern advances in training and physical conditioning has improved. I'm not comparing current Irish players with Irish players plying their trade in the English league 30, 40 or 50 years ago. Why not compare Federer with Sampras, Woods with Nicklaus, O'Sullivan with Hendry, Bolt with Gay/Johnson/Greene/Bailey? They are much more acceptable comparison as per my comparison of the current pool of players and pool of players available during the 90's. Is ther emuch between Federer and Sampras? Much between Woods and Nicklaus? O'Sullivan and Hendry?

Rekop dog

clubberlang12 wrote: »

While the on-going argument over the last year or two about none of our current players playing for the top clubs holds some sway on the face of it, you have to remember how much top flight football has evolved since the early 90's and the standard of quality of players is much higher now than then. There was also the matter of the foreigner rule and Irish players counted as assimilated players. Had the current crop of Irish players(i'll include Given and Duff as this argument has being going on since qualifying last year) been around then i would hazard a speculative guess that the likes of Given, Dunne, O'Shea, Duff, McGeady, Keane, Doyle would be with the top clubs in England at the time. I would also speculate that as promising young players, ala Babb, McAteer, etc that you mentioned, the likes of McClean, McCarthy, Coleman, Long would be in or around the top clubs also.

The flip side of the argument is that if you were to take the aforementioned past squads who would make it into any of the current top club sides. My guess is obviously Keane and then a McGrath at his prime. Irwin possibly also but there is quite a number of current premier league full backs who play i would consider the same level of player, e.g Baines, not at a top club.

On the Best EPL Striker thread we can see consensus that the likes of Cantona, Hughes, Fowler, Hasselbaink, etc who would have been considered the best attacking players of the period wouldn't get into the top 10 list. That shows how much the quality of the league has improved since then.

Irwin would definitely be at a top club now, I agree that the general standard is better now than the 90's in the prem but that Manchester United team where at a time the best in Europe and Irwin played a significant role in the team, same goes for Keane obviously.

Duff stoodout when the premiership was at it's strongest for arguably the best team in prem era under Jose, his performance level over the last few years isn't even comparable, a shadow of the player he once was. Keane was also consistantly scoring at a decent level during that period, again his performance level has dropped in recent years, read the same for Given.

There's no doubt that this current crop is far weaker than any of the teams we sent to major championships before

noodler

Our first 11 is weaker than previously - no doubt.

We probably have our best pool of wingers and strikers for quite some time though.


I don't think we can explain away the poor performances of the campaigns (Cyprus at home, Slovakia at home, Georgia at home, Kazakhstan etc) because of a lack of players.

As Giles would continously point out, there are certain things that any team at this level can do that don't sacrifice our (by and large) solidity of the last 4 years or so.

Playing the occassional short ball from the keeper, having a mdifielder continously show for the full back, playing a throw short rather than always up the line, encouraging fullbacks to pass rather than hoof.

These things can't be explained away by the quality of our players.

clubberlang12

My point is not that the current 11 is weaker, which i believe it is in places, but that the consensus that playing for a top team in the early 90's vs not playing for a top team now is an indicative of players abilities. That is the crux of my point. Hence the portion of his original post i highlighted.

Irwin may very well be at top club nowadays but the fact the likes of Baines, Johnson, Walker as examples of international premiership full backs not playing for the top 4 teams shows that not playing for a top 4 team does not equate to being of lower ability than one who does. The influx of foreign players has changed the dynamic of the premiership.

Also i think our current 11 is weaker than our possible starting 11. We have players plying their trade in the premiership that under previous regimes would no doubt be included if not involved in the Irish set-up. So yes, our squad is weaker but not necessarily for lack of talent or player association with club standing and definitely not enough to warrant excuse for such dire performances that we have become akin to.

wonderfullife

clubberlang12 wrote: »

Unfortunately, when you want to use the "No Irish players play for the top clubs in England" all you can do is compare the standard and regulations of the league then and as it stands now. The truth is, had the top tier of English football being as open to playing foreign players as it is now most of those players mentioned would more than likely never have played for the top sides.

You argue that "all you can do is be amongst the elite in your era". Who are you comparing Irwin, Babb, Cascarino, Staunton, Whelan, etc, etc, to? The elite in what area? A sub-standard English league? You can't compare the English league as it stood then as it stands now. Considering the finance available and the draw of the Premiership as one of the top 3 leagues in the world to attract players you may as well compare those players to other European based players if that was the case. And in doing so the ,majority of those Irish players fall well short.

For you to assume with nutrition and modern coaching that the Irish players you mentioned would break into the top clubs at the minute is just as speculative as myself to assume that the current players i mentioned wpould be plying their trade with the top clubs of that time. Either we are both wrong, or we are both right, but one argument doesn't assume anymore note as they are both speculation.

For your example with regards athletes you've decided to compare atheletes with a minimum 30 years gap between them. Of course modern advances in training and physical conditioning has improved. I'm not comparing current Irish players with Irish players plying their trade in the English league 30, 40 or 50 years ago. Why not compare Federer with Sampras, Woods with Nicklaus, O'Sullivan with Hendry, Bolt with Gay/Johnson/Greene/Bailey? They are much more acceptable comparison as per my comparison of the current pool of players and pool of players available during the 90's. Is ther emuch between Federer and Sampras? Much between Woods and Nicklaus? O'Sullivan and Hendry?

But you are comparing them. Denis Irwin began his career with Leeds in 1983, Paul Mcgrath left Pats for United in 1982, Ronnie Whelan left Home Farm for liverpool in 1979.......these are all players starting out their careers 30 years ago now. So to make any assumptions about their ability to get into teams nowadays is silly. You're making direct comparisons that based on their standard of play 20 years back they wouldn't make it into teams today.

Stephen Hendry started his career when they still played on heavy cloths with Ivory balls!! Niklaus didn't have all the modern technology with golf clubs, balls, swing coaches etc. Sampras didn't have the modern racket technology, modern balls etc. I'd fancy a peak Ronnie, Woods and Federer to destroy a peak Hendry, Niklaus and Sampras but if those 3 were born in same era with same talent and facilities, coaching etc, then who knows!! But It's just absurd to DIRECTLY compare eras like-for-like. I can't sit here and tell you Irwin would get in ahead of Baines at Everton because i don't know how much better Irwin would be with modern coaching, nutrition etc. I can give an opinion on it but i don't know. What i do know is saying Irwin wouldn't get in a team based on his performances 20/30 years ago is stupid!

clubberlang12

wonderfullife wrote: »

But you are comparing them. Denis Irwin began his career with Leeds in 1983, Paul Mcgrath left Pats for United in 1982, Ronnie Whelan left Home Farm for liverpool in 1979.......these are all players starting out their careers 30 years ago now. So to make any assumptions about their ability to get into teams nowadays is silly. You're making direct comparisons that based on their standard of play 20 years back they wouldn't make it into teams today.

Go back to the original portion of your post i quoted and look at my previous post. You mentioned the '90 and '94 squads and the fact that a number fo them played for a top team at the time and none of our current squad do and that the pool of players is lesser. You have made the original comparison between previous and current squads but yet now you are saying you can't compare player ability then and player ability now but only there association with club league standing. Wow, i can't really work that one out so please elaborate how you can come to that conclusion.

wonderfullife

clubberlang12 wrote: »

Go back to the original portion of your post i quoted and look at my previous post. You mentioned the '90 and '94 squads and the fact that a number fo them played for a top team at the time and none of our current squad do and that the pool of players is lesser. You have made the original comparison between previous and current squads but yet now you are saying you can't compare player ability then and player ability now but only there association with club league standing. Wow, i can't really work that one out so please elaborate how you can come to that conclusion.

you can compare player ability relative to players in their era. So you can compare Irwin with Lee Dixon, Nigel Winterburn, Rob Jones etc, or within the squads Irwin to the likes of Terry Phelan. You said Irwin wouldn't get in ahead of Baines....which is ridiculous really even if you could directly compare the eras.

As a general point, the 1990 and 1994 squad did contain a lot of players at the top clubs in England, winning leagues, cups etc. Times have changed, the Premier League is better but we still comparatively don't have players at top clubs or winning things. The last Irish players to win the Premier League were John O' Shea and Damien Duff. Before that we go back to Keane, Irwin, Jeff Kenna at Blackburn.

Yes there are a lot of foreign talent in England but even look at the English team - Hart, Terry, Cahill, Gerard, Lampard, Carrick, Rooney, there's 7 off top of my head who have won the league or Champions League in past 8 years. To say there is more foreign talent is true but that shouldn't necessarily mean Irish players can't break into those top teams if they are good enough.

We just don't have the talent right now. If McGrath, Whelan, Houghton, Sheedy etc were around now, allied to all the improvements in lifestyle, coaching, nutrition etc, i feel they had the talent to be playing for the top sides still in England. But, as i will say for a last time, you can't directly compare them in terms of "oh well Baines now is better than Irwin was then", because people with talent in any era would make the most of their talent in any era, and all those players would be even better now in the modern era.

clubberlang12

wonderfullife wrote: »

you can compare player ability relative to players in their era. So you can compare Irwin with Lee Dixon, Nigel Winterburn, Rob Jones etc, or within the squads Irwin to the likes of Terry Phelan. You said Irwin wouldn't get in ahead of Baines....which is ridiculous really even if you could directly compare the eras.

As a general point, the 1990 and 1994 squad did contain a lot of players at the top clubs in England, winning leagues, cups etc. Times have changed, the Premier League is better but we still comparatively don't have players at top clubs or winning things. The last Irish players to win the Premier League were John O' Shea and Damien Duff. Before that we go back to Keane, Irwin, Jeff Kenna at Blackburn.

Yes there are a lot of foreign talent in England but even look at the English team - Hart, Terry, Cahill, Gerard, Lampard, Carrick, Rooney, there's 7 off top of my head who have won the league or Champions League in past 8 years. To say there is more foreign talent is true but that shouldn't necessarily mean Irish players can't break into those top teams if they are good enough.

We just don't have the talent right now. If McGrath, Whelan, Houghton, Sheedy etc were around now, allied to all the improvements in lifestyle, coaching, nutrition etc, i feel they had the talent to be playing for the top sides still in England. But, as i will say for a last time, you can't directly compare them in terms of "oh well Baines now is better than Irwin was then", because people with talent in any era would make the most of their talent in any era, and all those players would be even better now in the modern era.

First of all, i;d like you to quote where i said Irwin wouldn't play ahead of Baines or that Baines is a better player. I said there are full-backs like Baines who play to a similar level but never said he was better.

With regards to the "English" players you mentioned winning titles in the last 8 years i'll raise you Van Der Sar, Ronaldo, Nani, Tevez, Vidic, Evra, Anderson from United alone. Look at the foreign talent at Chelsea, City and Arsenal that have won titles in the last near decade that i won't even bother mentioning. If you really think that a Houghton, Sheedy and dare i say Whelan would have made those teams even with conditioning and coaching available these days well then that is your opinion. And you are fully entitled to it. My opinion is that no way they would.

Of course British clubs had more Irish players at them for the reasons i have pointed out over and over again in my posts. For God's sake they had more British players then too! If you can't see that is harder now for British/ Irish players to make it at the bigger clubs than it was then, well then nothing i can point out will change your view.

LostinBlanch

wonderfullife wrote: »

Italia 90


Packie Bonner Goalkeeper Glasgow Celtic
Chris Morris Defender Glasgow Celtic
Stephen Staunton Defender Liverpool
Mick McCarthy Defender Milwall
Kevin Moran Defender Blackburn Rovers
Ronnie Whelan Midfielder Liverpool
Paul McGrath Defender Aston Villa
Ray Houghton Midfielder Liverpool FC
John Aldridge Forward Real Sociedad
Tony Cascarino Forward Aston Villa
Kevin Sheedy Midfielder Everton
David O'Leary Defender Arsenal
Andy Townsend Midfielder Norwich City
Chris Hughton Defender Tottenham Hotspur
Bernie Slaven Midfielder Middlesboro
John Sheridan Midfielder Sheffield Wednesday
Niall Quinn Forward Manchester City
Frank Stapleton Forward Blackburn Rovers
David Kelly Forward Leicester City
John Byrne Forward Le Harve
Alan McLoughlin Midfielder Swindon Town
Gerry Peyton Goalkeeper Bournmouth


Most of the starting 11 played for top clubs. Of the squad, 6 had won the top flight title in England in the previous 5 years (Staunton, Whelan, Houghton, Sheedy, Aldridge, O' Leary). Even bringing the likes of the Italia 90 squad into this discussion highlights the dearth of talent available to the current manager and future managers.

For the record even that Irish squad, with all that talent, were absolutely dire away to Hungary in the qualifiers for Italia 90.......Hungary were no great shakes either. Good teams can and do put in bad performances against minnows. Happens at club level all the time. And average/poor teams can do likewise, probably more often.

I have no problem with a team having one bad performance, but as you will see this is part of a disturbing pattern. Also Hungary weren't 142nd in world Football, they qualified for the 1986 World cup.

wonderfullife wrote: »

USA 94

1
Packie Bonner Goalkeeper Glasgow Celtic
Denis Irwin Defender Manchester United
Terry Phelan Defender Manchester City
Kevin Moran Defender Blackburn Rovers
Paul McGrath Defender Aston Villa
Roy Keane Midfielder Manchester United
Andy Townsend Midfielder Aston Villa
Ray Houghton Midfielder Aston Villa
John Aldridge Forward Tranmere Rovers
John Sheridan Midfielder Sheffield Wednesday
Steve Staunton Midfielder Aston Villa
Gary Kelly Defender Leeds United
Alan Kernaghan Defender Manchester City
Phil Babb Defender Coventry City
Tommy Coyne Forward Motherwell
Tony Cascarino Forward Chelsea
Eddie McGoldrick Midfielder Arsenal
Ronnie Whelan Midfielder Liverpool FC
Alan McLoughlin Midfielder Portsmouth
David Kelly Forward Wolverhampton Wanderers
Jason McAteer Midfielder Bolton Wanderers
Alan Kelly Goalkeeper Sheffield Wednesday

The average age of the USA 94 squad = 28.6 years
The average age of the squad v Kazakhstan = 26.4 years

Starting 11 v Italy Giants Stadium average age = 28.6 years
Starting 11 v Kazakhstan = 27.0 years

Nice C & P there. Nobody is disputing the fact that there were better players available than we have now. But this fact is grasped onto and repeated by the Trap defenders, and it's a cop out as I'll explain.

What is in dispute is Trapattoni's ability to get the best out of what he has. There is a long term pattern of failure to adapt to circumstances in Trapattoni's career. Look at how he was sacked in Stuttgart in 2006 after seven disastous months, there was the customary falling out with attacking players and midfielders - in this case Jan Dahl Tomasson (sp?) and Jesper Gronkjaer who were ostracised as soon as they admitted they were unhappy with his ultra conservative, overly defensive **** on a stick type football (my words not theirs). Does any of this sound familiar? He was also in a results based job then too.

Charlton got the best out of his team by knowing when to be tough and when to loosen the reins a bit, both on the field and off, when he'd let players have a few drinks and a singsong.

Compare and contrast Trapattoni's reaction to Andy Reid and a few of the lads wanting to continue a singsong. Compare Trapattoni's rigidity, he can't or won't allow any change to the system or personnel and that pisses people off. There is no way on earth that Trapattoni would have gotten the level of results out of the players that Charlton had. None. I mentioned his disastrous time at Stuttgart above, now let's see how he did with players the likes of Buffon, Pannucci, Odo, Zanetti, Ferarri, Del Piero, Cannovaro, Gatusso, Totti, Vieri, Pirlo, Zambrotta, Materazi etc? Surely he could bring out the best in them like he did in Euro 2004. No wait they slumped out of their group 3rd out of 4. :rolleyes:

wonderfullife wrote: »

Also let's not rewrite history. Alan Kelly didn't get a game in USA 94, Packie Bonner started every match. I presume you mean Gary Kelly anyway no rewriting history, just a typo which you caught fair play to you. [\quote]
I guess my overall point is this: we don't have any way similar levels of talent nowadays to pick from. If there were stand-out young talent, similar to Roy Keane in 1994 they would be picked.

lostinblanch wrote:

You have more faith in him, I think given his ignoring of breakthrough players like McClean and McCarthy (I know he played the last match but that was only because Gibson told Trapattoni where to go). I doubt whether he would have played Babb, MacAteer or Kelly if he was in Charlton's place. Nor Roy Keane, he'd say stubbornly he's too young, he should be patient and learn to wait, let others play first of all; and drag his heels just the way he did with McClean.

wonderfullife wrote: »

I think Trap is making mistakes and lots of them but there's no point saying previous Irish teams would not have produced such an inept performance, as those squads you mentioned were packed with the cream of talent in English football. The focus should be on whether this Irish squad is capable of better (yes, obviously) and would blooding the new talent help (probably, yes). Would most of us here pick a different starting 11 v Germany (yes). So i agree Trap is making a lot of mistakes but he is in a results based job, so he can only be judged at the end of the campaign.

I have stated my reasons why I think if he was in Charlton's place he'd misused the team and not got the results out of them that Charlton did.
You agree that Trapattoni is misusing the resources he has at his disposal, you even state that you know they are capable of better.
I have no problem with a team having one bad performance, but this is Trapattoni's 3rd campaign. There is only so much rope you can give someone. He has stated that he doesn't see the need for any change and isn't going to go, so anybody defending him knows that they are going to get more of the same.

Trapattoni is the new Staunton, and all the arguments for keeping Staunton are being rehashed in his favour.

Anyway, I've had my say, those who want to keep Trapattoni in charge are only going to have their minds changed by more crap football, bad displays and worse results. Not by what I or others more knowledgable than me have written.

Mr.Nice Guy

LostinBlanch wrote: »

I have stated my reasons why I think if he was in Charlton's place he'd misused the team and not got the results out of them that Charlton did.
You agree that Trapattoni is misusing the resources he has at his disposal, you even state that you know they are capable of better.
I have no problem with a team having one bad performance, but this is Trapattoni's 3rd campaign. There is only so much rope you can give someone. He has stated that he doesn't see the need for any change and isn't going to go, so anybody defending him knows that they are going to get more of the same.

You make it sound like the guy has been a failure. Yes it's his third campaign and he didn't do badly in his first two campaigns. Two play-offs, robbed in the first one, successful in the second and only one game into campaign number three.

LostinBlanch wrote:

Trapattoni is the new Staunton, and all the arguments for keeping Staunton are being rehashed in his favour.

This is a ridiculous statement. You are comparing Staunton who had no experience and was clearly out of his depth to one of the most successful managers in European football who has secured us two play-off places in his two campaigns in charge.

briany

You could say the Trap is the new Staunton - in his current predicament, but no, there's not much to argue over all his past achievements but nor do they make him bulletproof to future criticism. Trappatoni, like Staunton, is now being criticised at every turn, can do little right, can't seem to get tactics right or bring about team unity and there's a massive clamour in the popular media to see him gone. Then again, that's the predicament of most managers at the tail end of their tenure, so while Trap is the new Staunton, he's also the new Brian Kerr, the new Mick McCarthy, the new John Giles, the new Eoin Hand, the new Liam Touhy etc.

LuckyLloyd

briany wrote: »

You could say the Trap is the new Staunton - in his current predicament, but no, there's not much to argue over all his past achievements but nor do they make him bulletproof to future criticism. Trappatoni, like Staunton, is now being criticised at every turn, can do little right, can't seem to get tactics right or bring about team unity and there's a massive clamour in the popular media to see him gone. Then again, that's the predicament of most managers at the tail end of their tenure, so while Trap is the new Staunton, he's also the new Brian Kerr, the new Mick McCarthy, the new John Giles, the new Eoin Hand, the new Liam Touhy etc.

And the popular media / Joe Public always got its way before. The targets were always softer though...

noodler

We should be further along the development path now in fairness.

The rigidity he gave us should only have been a starting point and his lack of faith in the ability of the players should have been washed away by now.

invinciblePRSTV

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

briany wrote: »

You could say the Trap is the new Staunton - in his current predicament, but no, there's not much to argue over all his past achievements but nor do they make him bulletproof to future criticism. Trappatoni, like Staunton, is now being criticised at every turn, can do little right, can't seem to get tactics right or bring about team unity and there's a massive clamour in the popular media to see him gone. Then again, that's the predicament of most managers at the tail end of their tenure, so while Trap is the new Staunton, he's also the new Brian Kerr, the new Mick McCarthy, the new John Giles, the new Eoin Hand, the new Liam Touhy etc.

And the popular media / Joe Public always got its way before. The targets were always softer though...

Yeah its been quite obvious the Irish press corps have made up their minds long ago and want Trap out asap.

So that's perhaps the most satisfying aspect of this win, I could almost hear the gnashing of Journo's teeth from Kazakhstan all the way down in Dingle as they had to left click + delete their no doubt damming match reports and start again as Doyle's winner flew into the net.

In your face Sadlier etc.

Rekop dog

LostinBlanch wrote: »

Nice C & P there. Nobody is disputing the fact that there were better players available than we have now. But this fact is grasped onto and repeated by the Trap defenders, and it's a cop out as I'll explain.

What is in dispute is Trapattoni's ability to get the best out of what he has. There is a long term pattern of failure to adapt to circumstances in Trapattoni's career. Look at how he was sacked in Stuttgart in 2006 after seven disastous months, there was the customary falling out with attacking players and midfielders - in this case Jan Dahl Tomasson (sp?) and Jesper Gronkjaer who were ostracised as soon as they admitted they were unhappy with his ultra conservative, overly defensive **** on a stick type football (my words not theirs). Does any of this sound familiar? He was also in a results based job then too.

Charlton got the best out of his team by knowing when to be tough and when to loosen the reins a bit, both on the field and off, when he'd let players have a few drinks and a singsong.

Compare and contrast Trapattoni's reaction to Andy Reid and a few of the lads wanting to continue a singsong. Compare Trapattoni's rigidity, he can't or won't allow any change to the system or personnel and that pisses people off. There is no way on earth that Trapattoni would have gotten the level of results out of the players that Charlton had. None. I mentioned his disastrous time at Stuttgart above, now let's see how he did with players the likes of Buffon, Pannucci, Odo, Zanetti, Ferarri, Del Piero, Cannovaro, Gatusso, Totti, Vieri, Pirlo, Zambrotta, Materazi etc? Surely he could bring out the best in them like he did in Euro 2004. No wait they slumped out of their group 3rd out of 4. :rolleyes:

Picking a couple of relative failures in one of the most successful managers of all times career is completely retarded, especially when then somehow using it to prove that he wouldn't have got the best out of Charltons players,bizarre! He's always fallen out with players yes and is very much his own man, but far more often than not he's been proven right by his decisions down the years. In 04 they finished level with Sweden and Denmark in that group but went out on GD when the Danes and Swedes played out a convenient draw in the final group game, so while his time with Italy wasn't great, it was fairly unlucky at times(Korean match fixing in 02) and far from a massive failure.

I'd like us to be playing free flowing stuff too like anyone else, but I prefer us to play winning football and right through his time with Ireland it think he's played a style that maximizes our chances of getting results and has been proven right up to now, finishing above our seeding in qualifying campaigns. People take swipes at how easy an opponent Estonia were in the playoffs, but it was only because our ranking got so good that we were seeded to face an easier side in the playoffs, again due to our very consistant results since he took over.

Chucky the tree

I think the current squad isn't hugely different in talent to the 90s one. The main difference is that the huge increase in foreigners make it far more difficult for Irish and English players to play for the top teams.

kitakyushu

Chucky the tree wrote: »

I think the current squad isn't hugely different in talent to the 90s one. The main difference is that the huge increase in foreigners make it far more difficult for Irish and English players to play for the top teams.

Agreed. I don't want to get into that "now vs then" debate but it's fairly clear to me that if every footballer in the world was given a rank from #1 to #1000000 then you'd have to be a much higher ranked player to make it into an English league winning team today than you would in 1990 or 1994. That has nothing to do with whether the best footballers today were better than the best footballers back then.

As such just because today's squad are all down in the 7-20 club range of prem teams doesn't mean they're that far behind what we had in 1990. 22 years ago the likes of Ronnie Whelan and Ray Houghton didn't have to look over their shoulder at every top player from Africa, France, Eastern Europe, Spain and whereever else.

LuckyLloyd

Lads, Keane / McGrath / Irwin / Staunton were miles better than what we have in the squad now. Even if the rest is considered a wash (and it might well be), the presence of a Keane or a McGrath changes so, so much. Last summer sure the Keane / Duff / Given that rocked up were shadows of their 2002 selves, and before you even think it - their 2002 selves were better again than the notable names not started in Polkrania.

How much better right now player for player are we compared to Scotland?

wonderfullife

kitakyushu wrote: »

Agreed. I don't want to get into that "now vs then" debate but it's fairly clear to me that if every footballer in the world was given a rank from #1 to #1000000 then you'd have to be a much higher ranked player to make it into an English league winning team today than you would in 1990 or 1994. That has nothing to do with whether the best footballers today were better than the best footballers back then.

As such just because today's squad are all down in the 7-20 club range of prem teams doesn't mean they're that far behind what we had in 1990. 22 years ago the likes of Ronnie Whelan and Ray Houghton didn't have to look over their shoulder at every top player from Africa, France, Eastern Europe, Spain and whereever else.

Agree with most of that!

Just worth noting one thing - the likes of Whelan and Houghton didn't have to look over their shoulders at top foreign talent, no, but they did have to look over their shoulders at top British talent. Liverpool through the late 70s and large parts of the 1980s were not only the best side in English football but the best side in European/World Football. 4 European trophies in that period and it's fair to say that number would likely be higher other than the European ban for English sides. So it's a mark of how good our talent was that Whelan/Houghton/Staunton/Aldridge were good enough to get in one of the best teams in Europe.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Lads, Keane / McGrath / Irwin / Staunton were miles better than what we have in the squad now. Even if the rest is considered a wash (and it might well be), the presence of a Keane or a McGrath changes so, so much. Last summer sure the Keane / Duff / Given that rocked up were shadows of their 2002 selves, and before you even think it - their 2002 selves were better again than the notable names not started in Polkrania.

How much better right now player for player are we compared to Scotland?

Have we ever been THAT much better than Scotland player for player?

Scots 1988 Squad had the likes of: Hansen, Nicol, McLeish, Strachan, Charlie Nicholas, Gary Gillespie, Dalglish, McClair, McCoist.......and we only just pipped them to qualification in our group.

They failed narrowly to qualify in 2002 but that squad was pretty similar player for player to ours imo - Don Hutchison, Craig Burley, Paul Lambert in midfield for example wouldn't have been any inferior to Mattie Holland, Mark Kinsella etc, solid back four Matt Elliot, David Weir, Christian Dailly, Callum Davidson v Finnan, Harte, Dunne, Breen etc

Scotland is a decent comparison, they have always been roughly similar or better to us squad wise but we have qualified for more things. I'm pretty sure the Scots and Welsh would gladly swap us for Trap if he got them to qualification, even if it did mean being outclassed at the tournament.

I think it will be really interesting to see how Sweden do tomorrow night at home to the Kazaks. If they are as bad as most people think based on their rankings then i expect Sweden to batter them at home but will be interesting to see how that one goes.

briany

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Yeah its been quite obvious the Irish press corps have made up their minds long ago and want Trap out asap.

So that's perhaps the most satisfying aspect of this win, I could almost hear the gnashing of Journo's teeth from Kazakhstan all the way down in Dingle as they had to left click + delete their no doubt damming match reports and start again as Doyle's winner flew into the net.

In your face Sadlier etc.

I doubt many journalists would have been bothered to restart their articles. All The commentary about the team's play and the first 88 minutes would have remained the same, just edit out any references to a loss and instead put in phrases like 'undeserving', 'smash 'n' grab' or 'great escape'.

noodler

invinciblePRSTV wrote: »

Yeah its been quite obvious the Irish press corps have made up their minds long ago and want Trap out asap.

So that's perhaps the most satisfying aspect of this win, I could almost hear the gnashing of Journo's teeth from Kazakhstan all the way down in Dingle as they had to left click + delete their no doubt damming match reports and start again as Doyle's winner flew into the net.

In your face Sadlier etc.

I am sure some of what you wrote was tongue in cheek but that standpoint is equally as damaging as those who don't recognise any of Trap's achievements and want the starting 11 replaced.

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

Lads, Keane / McGrath / Irwin / Staunton were miles better than what we have in the squad now. Even if the rest is considered a wash (and it might well be), the presence of a Keane or a McGrath changes so, so much. Last summer sure the Keane / Duff / Given that rocked up were shadows of their 2002 selves, and before you even think it - their 2002 selves were better again than the notable names not started in Polkrania.

How much better right now player for player are we compared to Scotland?

Cop out in my opinion.

That argument only works when we are beaten by an obviously better team like Russia, Croatia, Italy or Spain.

The argument doesn't help explain why we let Cyrpus boss us, why we sat back and prayed after scoring early against Bulgaria and Macedonia, why we fail to assert ourselves on games against relative minnows when we are at home.

Our starting 11 is weaker than that of previous years but we are in a uniquely (imo) positive position with strikers and wingers than we have been for quite some time.

Its also reasonably clear that, in some instances, the weakness of our starting XI can to some degree be down to the manager's team selection and tactics.

I said he deserved a new contract if we qualified and so I stand by it. However, at some stage 4.5 years after accepting the job, he really should be building on the solidity that was so badly needed after the previous regime.