History, Schmistory, bah, humbug!

southsiderosie

Why don't Irish politicians care about preserving historical sites?

The Irish Times announced today that the Blackrock Baths were being demolished after falling into disrepair. This seems to be the latest in a long line of historical sites that were either left to rot until they could not be salvaged, built or paved over, privatized, or preserved in such a way that they lose much of their historical significance. Off the top of my head, the bid to build a motorway by Tara, the failure to purchase Lissadell House, and the building of council offices over the Viking site in Dublin stand out as particularly egregious examples.

For a country that touts itself as a place of history and culture, why does it seem that there are there so few attempts by elected officials to actually preserve that history? Or am I missing something here?

scudzilla

The only thing politicians are interested in preserving is themselves

The Radiator

History is in the past, screw it

randylonghorn

So is this post ^^

Should I just delete it for you then?

NegativeCreep

What makes this place historical? As far as I can see its just a run-down mouldy outdoor pool.

Nodin

southsiderosie wrote: »

Why don't Irish politicians care about preserving historical sites?

The Irish Times announced today that the Blackrock Baths were being demolished after falling into disrepair. This seems to be the latest in a long line of historical sites that were either left to rot until they could not be salvaged, built or paved over, privatized, or preserved in such a way that they lose much of their historical significance. Off the top of my head, the bid to build a motorway by Tara, the failure to purchase Lissadell House, and the building of council offices over the Viking site in Dublin stand out as particularly egregious examples.

For a country that touts itself as a place of history and culture, why does it seem that there are there so few attempts by elected officials to actually preserve that history? Or am I missing something here?

This was written nearly 100 years ago

"What need you, being come to sense,
But fumble in a greasy till
And add the halfpence to the pence
And prayer to shivering prayer, until
You have dried the marrow from the bone;
For men were born to pray and save;
Romantic Ireland's dead and gone,
It's with O'Leary in the grave."
http://classiclit.about.com/library/bl-etexts/wbyeats/bl-wbye-sept.htm

If you show a neolithic site to a good many of the irish political or merchant class, the first thing that'll pop into their mind is how many houses they can get into the acreage, or whether they'd be better with a gym and a nightclub with a chipper for good measure.

TeddyTedson

I'm absolutely disgraceful the way they let historical sites get demolished.
They don't see a financial gain in them I guess.
Very short sighted governments. FF mostly.
People have no real power in this country.

Galwayguy35

There is lots of historic sites preserved around the country.
Don't see what is supposed to be so special about the example mentioned in this thread.

up for anything

Some sad looking photos of the Baths

This could have been turned around into a money spinner.

Dravokivich

Calm down everyone, I read the article and it also says:

“The elements of the structures and pool/sea wall that are not considered to be dangerous will be retained.”

It appears they are only taking down parts that can't be repaired...

the groutch

don't think it would have been a good idea to restore them.
it would just be another outlet for the unsavoury type who descend on Sandycove or Bray via the DART whenever the weather is anyway decent.

southsiderosie

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

There is lots of historic sites preserved around the country.
Don't see what is supposed to be so special about the example mentioned in this thread.

Are you serious?

Tara isn't that special? Huh? Do you think the Basques would allow a developer to run a bicycle path, much less a road past the Tree of Guernica?

Lissadell House isn't that special? The home of Constance Markiewicz and Yeats' retreat? Do you think that the British would ever allow a private owner to buy Shakespeare's birthplace and then shut it off to the public?

You don't think it matters that the Dublin City Council dug up one of the original Viking sites and then still went on and plunked its office building down on top of it? Can you imagine the Italians digging up Pompeii, and then plunking a shopping mall on top of it?

Why do Irish officials care so little about the country's cultural patrimony?

smash

southsiderosie wrote: »

Why don't Irish politicians care about preserving historical sites?

Because they're schmistorical places.

Guy:Incognito

TeddyTedson wrote: »

I'm absolutely disgraceful

You sure are..........:)

TeddyTedson wrote: »

People have no real power in this country.

The people were free to get money and buy the baths. In fact some of them did. Another group of "the people" then objected to them being done up and reopened.

How long should a rotting, corroded old empty building be kept just because people used to swim in it?

sheesh

Because there are no votes in it for them. Yeah democracy!

Guy:Incognito

southsiderosie wrote: »

Tara isn't that special? Huh? Do you think the Basques would allow a developer to run a bicycle path, much less a road past the Tree of Guernica?

Is that not in a town with loads of roads far closer that anything in Tara?

I dont think we levelled many towns to build a new motorway over either.

Little My

Yep no one here cares.

When people do care this is what they do...

http://www.ascinfo.co.uk/news/02356/teamwork-from-60s-firms-helps-restore

http://www.mybrightonandhove.org.uk/page_id__10611_path__0p115p209p1529p.aspx

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-19002657

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillingdon_Sports_and_Leisure_Complex

Mr Benevolent

How is a ugly, decrepit outdoor swimming pool a historical site?

pickarooney

I've never been there but it looks like a relatively recent construction which has been let go to absolute ****. I don't really see any reason not to demolish it, particularly if it's dangerous. It's hardly Newgrange.

Cienciano

Tara is still there. Has the badly needed motorway hasn't made any difference to it.
As for the baths, I'm sure there's a lot of buildings and features worth saving, but the council has a set amount of money and can't save everything.

Shryke

There was a thread on here probably a year back at least, maybe more. It really showed what a poor attitude some Irish people have for history and heritage. If I could remember the thread better I would find a link for it.
One post I still remember well was someone who had been working in construction during the boom boasting about how they found old Viking stuff while on site and just ploughed through/over it all. The wanker was so proud of the fact, I wished serious harm on him tbh. It sounded like it was more or less a given thing to do for some. Half wit cunt monkeys.

Cienciano

Shryke wrote: »

There was a thread on here probably a year back at least, maybe more. It really showed what a poor attitude some Irish people have for history and heritage. If I could remember the thread better I would find a link for it.
One post I still remember well was someone who had been working in construction during the boom boasting about how they found old Viking stuff while on site and just ploughed through/over it all. The wanker was so proud of the fact, I wished serious harm on him tbh. It sounded like it was more or less a given thing to do for some. Half wit cunt monkeys.

Heard of this before. Not just during the boom. Reason was (as you probably know), the project would be stopped while archaeologists worked on your site costing you money, so if you found anything it's better to pretend you didn't see it

IM0

southsiderosie wrote: »

Why don't Irish politicians care about preserving historical sites?

The Irish Times announced today that the Blackrock Baths were being demolished after falling into disrepair. This seems to be the latest in a long line of historical sites that were either left to rot until they could not be salvaged, built or paved over, privatized, or preserved in such a way that they lose much of their historical significance. Off the top of my head, the bid to build a motorway by Tara, the failure to purchase Lissadell House, and the building of council offices over the Viking site in Dublin stand out as particularly egregious examples.

For a country that touts itself as a place of history and culture, why does it seem that there are there so few attempts by elected officials to actually preserve that history? Or am I missing something here?

we are all missing the main point here, wtf does that mean

ejmaztec

Cienciano wrote: »

Heard of this before. Not just during the boom. Reason was (as you probably know), the project would be stopped while archaeologists worked on your site costing you money, so if you found anything it's better to pretend you didn't see it

I think it's a regular occurrence because a lot of people don't give a sh1t.

A local historian in Kerry was telling me that years ago, some ancient stone roadway was uncovered, and that some local councillor had the stone delivered to his own property. They didn't want to delay the work for any archaeologist and just ploughed on.

LordSutch

southsiderosie wrote: »

Why don't Irish politicians care about preserving historical sites?

The Irish Times announced today that the Blackrock Baths were being demolished after falling into disrepair. This seems to be the latest in a long line of historical sites that were either left to rot until they could not be salvaged, built or paved over, privatized, or preserved in such a way that they lose much of their historical significance. Off the top of my head, the bid to build a motorway by Tara, the failure to purchase Lissadell House, and the building of council offices over the Viking site in Dublin stand out as particularly egregious examples.

For a country that touts itself as a place of history and culture, why does it seem that there are there so few attempts by elected officials to actually preserve that history? Or am I missing something here?

I have wondered about those baths since the 70s, I have never been in them because they must have closed shortly before I arrived, then in recent years they were given a lick of paint which led me to believe that they would finally be ressurected/ and or modernised (but no), after decades of being abandoned and vandalised, only now are they to be demolished.

I would suggest that if they must demolish the baths they should at least build a modern homage to them, consisting of an indoor pool with flumes/water slides with a roof top bar/Cafe overlooking the sea - nice.

Guy:Incognito

LordSutch wrote: »

I would suggest that if they must demolish the baths they should at least build a modern homage to them, consisting of an indoor pool with flumes/water slides with a roof top bar/Cafe overlooking the sea - nice.

Maybe a developer could buy them and plan to build something only to be denied because of objections from the locals......................

ejmaztec

Irish historical locations have to have multi-million Euro interpretive centres, staffed by CE workers, and have no hope of ever making a profit. I think that's the rule.

srsly78

southsiderosie wrote: »

the bid to build a motorway by Tara

As someone that lives on Tara hill I can tell you that motorway is miles away from the site. Don't listen to the crusties :pac: No locals were complaining at all.

southsiderosie

Confab wrote: »

How is a ugly, decrepit outdoor swimming pool a historical site?

pickarooney wrote: »

I've never been there but it looks like a relatively recent construction which has been let go to absolute ****. I don't really see any reason not to demolish it, particularly if it's dangerous. It's hardly Newgrange.

Something doesn't have to be 500 years old for it to have historical significance. The baths were built in the 1800s.

I don't think knocking down the baths is as bad as building over the Viking site, but it just seems indicative of the generally careless attitude towards historic preservation. IIRC, didn't the Dublin Corporation try to raze many of the Georgian town homes in the 1960s?

Seanchai

southsiderosie wrote: »

The Irish Times announced today that the Blackrock Baths were being demolished after falling into disrepair. This seems to be the latest in a long line of historical sites...

It's an ugly concrete monstrosity which is "historical" in a very broad meaning of that word. The state has some 100,000 heritage sites which are not even under its care because of the expense. There are infinitely more important historical sites to protect.

Guy:Incognito

southsiderosie wrote: »

Something doesn't have to be 500 years old for it to have historical significance. .

And in the same vein, somethign that is old isnt automatically historically significant.

ejmaztec

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

And in the same vein, somethign that is old isnt automatically historically significant.

That's Gay Byrne covered.

pickarooney

Shryke wrote: »

There was a thread on here probably a year back at least, maybe more. It really showed what a poor attitude some Irish people have for history and heritage. If I could remember the thread better I would find a link for it.
One post I still remember well was someone who had been working in construction during the boom boasting about how they found old Viking stuff while on site and just ploughed through/over it all. The wanker was so proud of the fact, I wished serious harm on him tbh. It sounded like it was more or less a given thing to do for some. Half wit cunt monkeys.

Yet if a Polish guy found some old Nazi gear on his site and did the same nobody would blame him.

Cienciano

Guy:Incognito wrote: »

Maybe a developer could buy them and plan to build something only to be denied because of objections from the locals......................

Isn't that what happened in Dun Laoghaire? Now developers have no money, so the locals are left with an eyesore.

Mr. CooL ICE

It looks like utter crap and a home for junkies. Knock it down I say

coddlesangers

I swam in blackrock baths a good few times as a kid. They were a dump then, and shouldn't ever have been open to the public, given that you were basically swimming in ****E. Happy to see them demolished personally, I don't see them as an amenity or every likely to be so. In terms of the architectural significance, to me they are a reminder of how little care successive councils put into recreational facilities for de peeeeepppllleeee

Casillas

Here's why;

Government grants allowed the council to carry out emergency repairs to just one protected structure in 2011 and the council said it would be able to save a maximum of two in 2012.

One of the council’s most senior officials has described the Government’s funding for endangered historic buildings as “minuscule” and said Dublin was being treated in the same way as Leitrim, despite having far more protected structures.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0508/1224315744498.html

THE HERITAGE Council is “nearing a catastrophic point” due to “disproportionate” cuts which have seen its funding decrease significantly in recent years, the council’s chief executive said yesterday at the launch of the organisation’s 2011 annual report.

Michael Starrett said that, for every €1 spent by the Heritage Council on grant projects in 2011, the tourism industry benefited by €4.40.

However, he said a “background of disproportionate cuts” had resulted in a significant decrease in the number of overall projects supported by the council.

Mr Starrett said that, having received funding of €20 million in 2008, the council, the statutory body charged with identifying, protecting, preserving and enhancing Ireland’s national heritage, was now running on a budget of just €6 million.

“We’re nearing a catastrophic point,” Mr Starrett said.

“Things have been pared back so much. As you can see we’re down 65/70 per cent in terms of budget.

http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0628/1224318891464.html

Nodin

Casillas wrote: »

Here's why;
...................
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/ireland/2012/0628/1224318891464.html

However the neglect has been going on for a lot longer than the last two years.

Shryke

pickarooney wrote: »

Shryke wrote: »

There was a thread on here probably a year back at least, maybe more. It really showed what a poor attitude some Irish people have for history and heritage. If I could remember the thread better I would find a link for it.
One post I still remember well was someone who had been working in construction during the boom boasting about how they found old Viking stuff while on site and just ploughed through/over it all. The wanker was so proud of the fact, I wished serious harm on him tbh. It sounded like it was more or less a given thing to do for some. Half wit cunt monkeys.

Yet if a Polish guy found some old Nazi gear on his site and did the same nobody would blame him.

That's the weakest reply i've gotten in a while. Straight to the Nazis without blinking. Hitler Hitler Hitler Hitler.

sbsquarepants

The problem here is that a lot of people don't realise the difference between historic and old. Not everything old is a historical gem that needs to be preserved, these baths being a case in point. They're just old shít - good riddance i say

Casillas

Nodin wrote: »

However the neglect has been going on for a lot longer than the last two years.

There was never enough invested in preservation, now even that small sum has been massively cut. Issues like this will only get much worse in the future.

LordSutch

By the way, did any of you fellow posters know that there used to be a Cable car on Bray head :eek:

Not much left of it now that its gone to rack and ruin since the 70s. All that remains is the concrete landing circle and some of the concrete anchors built into the rock further up the head. http://www.forthefainthearted.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/bray-cable-car-coca-cola.jpg

Precious flower

It would seem around the country people have to fight extremely hard to make sure historical sites are preserved and keep up. Of course during the boom it was all about building and spending as much as we could, so these historical artifacts and sites fell into disrepair.

asherbassad

southsiderosie wrote: »

Why don't Irish politicians care about preserving historical sites?

The Irish Times announced today that the Blackrock Baths were being demolished after falling into disrepair. This seems to be the latest in a long line of historical sites that were either left to rot until they could not be salvaged, built or paved over, privatized, or preserved in such a way that they lose much of their historical significance. Off the top of my head, the bid to build a motorway by Tara, the failure to purchase Lissadell House, and the building of council offices over the Viking site in Dublin stand out as particularly egregious examples.

For a country that touts itself as a place of history and culture, why does it seem that there are there so few attempts by elected officials to actually preserve that history? Or am I missing something here?

What a load of bollocks!
These baths are decrepit, ugly and dangerous. They should have been dynamited years ago. So people would flounder around in these baths back in the 1800's...big deal! Are you advocating preserving old abandoned factories and derelict mills just because they're old?

Teyla Emmagan

I was all 'that's desperate' until I saw the photos of the place. I honestly see nothing there worth preserving. The original structure might be oldish, but all that concrete crap should be razed entirely. Is there really anything here of historical or architrctural significance? We have more important places to preserve. Sad it was let get like that though.

super_furry

Still fail to see any historical significance about out-dated outdoor pools. If they spent the money to restore them to full use, just as they were when they were opened 150 years ago, people still wouldn't use them.

3ndahalfof6

we are suppose to learn from history, Irish politicians seem to think they are better than history, who needs it, lets just do what we want to do and if it goes wrong no biggie, we are sorted so fook it.

super_furry

3ndahalfof6 wrote: »

we are suppose to learn from history, Irish politicians seem to think they are better than history, who needs it, lets just do what we want to do and if it goes wrong no biggie, we are sorted so fook it.

There is nothing historic about that site.

3ndahalfof6

super_furry wrote: »

There is nothing historic about that site.

I bow.

Chuck Stone

Maybe one of our patriotic billionaires will pay to have it restored?

southsiderosie

asherbassad wrote: »

What a load of bollocks!
These baths are decrepit, ugly and dangerous. They should have been dynamited years ago. So people would flounder around in these baths back in the 1800's...big deal! Are you advocating preserving old abandoned factories and derelict mills just because they're old?

Wow would you calm down and actually read my post? I was amazed that they were allowed to fall into such disrepair - there was seemingly no choice but to tear them down at this point. I raised the issue of the baths because I don't understand why any government would let them get to the point where they were so decrepit and dangerous - which speaks to my broader point about Ireland and preservation.

And yes there is something to be said for using old facilities - they provide a sense of continuity and history to a neighborhood. McCarren Pool, which was built in the 1930s, re-opened in New York this year after being closed for 28 years, It is a lovely old facility that was originally built to be a center for community life in a time where city officials actually cared about that sort of thing.

As for mills, I live in an area where a lot of old textile mills have been repurposed into offices and residential lofts - if a site wasn't toxic, there is no reason why old buildings cannot be repurposed for modern use. The old buildings are certainly more sturdy than most of the slapdash construction today, that's for damn sure.