Appealing DART fine due to inadequate ticket machine + unmanned station: Advice?

hatrickpatrick

Africa wrote: »

Getting back to it, OP, have you appealed?

Yep! Hopefully they reply quickly.
I posted the appeal at Dun Laoghaire Post Office on Wednesday night, post office got raided by armed robbers yesterday morning... Knowing my luck they took the appeal with them

AFAIK they didn't go after the actual post though so it should be ok

Losty Dublin

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Yep! Hopefully they reply quickly.
I posted the appeal at Dun Laoghaire Post Office on Wednesday night, post office got raided by armed robbers yesterday morning... Knowing my luck they took the appeal with them

AFAIK they didn't go after the actual post though so it should be ok

Your name isn't Frank Spencer by any chance, what with a run of bad luck like this?

AlekSmart

suicide_circus wrote: »

I've done it. It wasnt a fare dodging issue but it was a train bye law issue The judge listened to me and then listened to the CIE hired SS officer. He believed me. But then i am a silver tounged devil

Interesting,and illustrative description.

As an aside have you actually any experience of dealing with an SS officer on any level...?

Victor

suicide_circus wrote: »

the CIE hired SS officer.

No need for comments like this.

Moderator

CIE

I'm glad that the DART is fine and the original poster finds it appealing.

hatrickpatrick

AlekSmart wrote: »

Interesting,and illustrative description.

As an aside have you actually any experience of dealing with an SS officer on any level...?

I find this remark in very bad taste, this poster could be a decorated veteran for all you know! :pac:

zagmund

Took the DART between 2 unmanned stations yesterday. The adults in our party all had cards and didn't need to buy tickets. The children travelled for free as the TVMs at either end didn't sell childrens tickets without adults tickets.

Revenue lost by IE for no good reason.

In addition, as someone on the trip pointed out - this gets children into the habit of thinking they don't have to pay for travel.

The train was very busy, with loads of kids. Would say a lot of families ended up travelling for free like us despite fully intending to pay.

z

Losty Dublin

zagmund wrote: »

Took the DART between 2 unmanned stations yesterday. The adults in our party all had cards and didn't need to buy tickets. The children travelled for free as the TVMs at either end didn't sell childrens tickets without adults tickets.

Revenue lost by IE for no good reason.

In addition, as someone on the trip pointed out - this gets children into the habit of thinking they don't have to pay for travel.

The train was very busy, with loads of kids. Would say a lot of families ended up travelling for free like us despite fully intending to pay.

z

I understand that the machines don't sell tickets because adults were buying kids tickets and using them; not selling the tickets is one of the only ways to counter this. In the event of a child with no ticket being stopped, I can't see a prosecution following on. There was a media rumpus raised the other year with a child being not allowed travel on a Dublin Bus after he was short his fare ; it would be a can of worms awaiting.

foggy_lad

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I understand that the machines don't sell tickets because adults were buying kids tickets and using them; not selling the tickets is one of the only ways to counter this. In the event of a child with no ticket being stopped, I can't see a prosecution following on. There was a media rumpus raised the other year with a child being not allowed travel on a Dublin Bus after he was short his fare ; it would be a can of worms awaiting.

Seriously how could they ever get away with prosecuting a child for not having a ticket on a train if they boarded at an unmanned station? Any RPU agent no matter how badly trained or ignorant would surely realise how wrong this would be, or are they bound by company policy?

AltAccount

foggy_lad wrote: »

Seriously how could they ever get away with prosecuting a child for not having a ticket on a train if they boarded at an unmanned station? Any RPU agent no matter how badly trained or ignorant would surely realise how wrong this would be, or are they bound by company policy?

I'm pretty sure Losty's post says a child wouldn't be prosecuted in this instance.

Do you even read people's posts before getting irate/combative or insulting about rail/bus staff?

zagmund

Losty Dublin wrote: »

I understand that the machines don't sell tickets because adults were buying kids tickets and using them; not selling the tickets is one of the only ways to counter this. In the event of a child with no ticket being stopped, I can't see a prosecution following on. There was a media rumpus raised the other year with a child being not allowed travel on a Dublin Bus after he was short his fare ; it would be a can of worms awaiting.

The thing is though - an adult who would buy a childrens ticket would just as happily buy no ticket at all and breeze through at both unmanned ends.

If you're telling me that the exit barriers at manned stations don't make a noise when a reduced fare ticket goes through them then we've just identified something that was left off the design that really should have been there.

An adult trying to exit through Connolly with a childrens ticket should be easy to spot - assuming the gate beeps as it does on other systems.

Let's just assume someone comes back and says "there's a jolly good reason the barriers don't beep, etc, etc . . ." then why do IE sell childrens tickets at all ? I could go up to the barrier, ask for a childrens ticket, get on the train, get off, pass through the barrier and nobody would know.

z

Losty Dublin

zagmund wrote: »

The thing is though - an adult who would buy a childrens ticket would just as happily buy no ticket at all and breeze through at both unmanned ends.

But you or I can put a child ticket through an automatic barrier and nobody is to know unless they are there to watch us do it. The disadvantage of an automatic machine is that it can't very whomever is buying or using it and there seems to have been abuse of it. If vending machines sold cans of beer or smokes then the same problem would happen only in reverse

zagmund wrote: »

If you're telling me that the exit barriers at manned stations don't make a noise when a reduced fare ticket goes through them then we've just identified something that was left off the design that really should have been there.

It's a very big ask to expect the guy on the gate to be watching a gate, deal with passenger enquiries and listen out to automatic barriers make the wrong bleep in what is a noisy environment. Not impossible mind but it's pushing it a little to expect that amount of vigilance.

zagmund wrote: »

Let's just assume someone comes back and says "there's a jolly good reason the barriers don't beep, etc, etc . . ." then why do IE sell childrens tickets at all ? I could go up to the barrier, ask for a childrens ticket, get on the train, get off, pass through the barrier and nobody would know.

z

The tickets are still on sale, just not from the machine. Children can also get a Leap card so it's not as if it isn't there. Lord knows the rumpus if they stopped selling them, Joe Duffy and the Herald's letter page would be in overdrive

That's assuming all barriers are manned, which they aren't.

zagmund

Losty Dublin wrote: »

It's a very big ask to expect the guy on the gate to be watching a gate, deal with passenger enquiries and listen out to automatic barriers make the wrong bleep in what is a noisy environment. Not impossible mind but it's pushing it a little to expect that amount of vigilance.

We're obviously never going to agree on this one. Maybe the IE folks should check out how they manage in London. They could maybe ask during one of those legendary quiet times when you could hear a pin drop in the underground.

z

Losty Dublin

zagmund wrote: »

We're obviously never going to agree on this one. Maybe the IE folks should check out how they manage in London. They could maybe ask during one of those legendary quiet times when you could hear a pin drop in the underground.

z

Bit easier when the trains are 20 metres under you in a tunnel and everybody uses Oyster cards

paconnors

They Could put in place a children's only exit barrier that only works on children tickets, forcing children to use this barrier only, and the normal barriers will refuse children's tickets, problem solved, if you see an adult going through a children's barrier you have them by the short n curly's

schemingbohemia

paconnors wrote: »

They Could put in place a children's only exit barrier that only works on children tickets, forcing children to use this barrier only, and the normal barriers will refuse children's tickets, problem solved, if you see an adult going through a children's barrier you have them by the short n curly's

Most DART stations have 2 or 3 automated exit gates per platform, to remove 1 of these to change it to a child only is a waste of resources. Increasing the number of gates at most stations would not be possible without significant expenditure that wouldn't be warranted.

goingnowhere

Looks like people are not paying attention to the gates

Just like the London underground there is a visual indication when a child ticket is used

bk

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Most DART stations have 2 or 3 automated exit gates per platform, to remove 1 of these to change it to a child only is a waste of resources. Increasing the number of gates at most stations would not be possible without significant expenditure that wouldn't be warranted.

It isn't a bad idea, you would only need to implement it at the big stations, Connolly, Hueston, Tara and Pearse. Would solve 80% of the problem.

Of course wouldn't stop people going from small station to small station. But then you wouldn't even need to buy a ticket as these small stations often have open gates for bikes, buggies, etc.

foggy_lad

bk wrote: »

It isn't a bad idea, you would only need to implement it at the big stations, Connolly, Hueston, Tara and Pearse. Would solve 80% of the problem.

Of course wouldn't stop people going from small station to small station. But then you wouldn't even need to buy a ticket as these small stations often have open gates for bikes, buggies, etc.

Afaik all unmanned stations have open gates to cater for free travel pass holders as well as bikes etc

bk

foggy_lad wrote: »

Afaik all unmanned stations have open gates to cater for free travel pass holders as well as bikes etc

Actually that is a better explanation. at least some of these stations have one large sized gate suitable for bikes/prams, but they still leave it open.

Free travel pass users would be a good reason form this. It also shows why we should be moving the free travel pass to a leap like smart card with id on it. Then there would be no need to leave the gates open.

Gancanagh1

My advice, would be to appeal. Say you purchased a ticket. If you can, tell them the time and the ticket type you bought it. They can check tickets bought and what time.

hatrickpatrick

Just got a letter back, my appeal was rejected. No reason for this was given.
I now have 14 days to decide whether to pay up or take the chance in court. Still mulling it over, but I'm ashamed to say that I'm leaning towards being a pu$$y and letting it slide.

They also claim that no further correspondence will be entered into, so not sure if there's any point in following it up.

Regardless of whether this is justified, it seems a bit ridiculous that they don't actually have to answer the point raised in the letter (namely SI 109/1984). The letter looks generic, probably reprinted a thousand timed including the signature

Was worth a shot anyway! I'd be very interested to know how they can simply ignore their own bye laws like this, might ask on Legal Discussion later

saiint

if i was you mate id take a chance in court
you have a case
and judges are always lenient to people who seem genuine about it
explain youve been taken the rout for years or how ever long
youve always paid
then explain what happened
same happened to me
except on the bus
was expected to pay 50 euro
when i said 2.65 the bus man only put down on the ticket 1.90
inspector came on
i explained this to the judge without any proof
and i was let off because he told me i seemed genuine and ive been taken the same bus for years up and back i had proof of that though, collected bus tickets for refund with change

id say go court mate you have a good case and most likely will get off

hatrickpatrick

Indeed, but I really can't afford a higher fine of €500-€1000 at the moment and I certainly don't want a criminal conviction on my record, so I'm just not sure if it'd be worth it. I'll drop in to legal discussion later on and see what they think of it before I decide on anything.

Hilly Bill

Is it a criminal offence? Refusing to pay a fine might be but is it a civil or a criminal court these cases gets heard in?
OP, from reading all that you have said on here its starting to come across that from using the station previously, you had prior knowledge that the station would be unmanned at them times and that you would have had to use the ticket machines. This would mean that you would have known what notes or coins it takes and you could have easily made sure that you had the required coins or notes in advance. If you say what you have posted on here then the judge might think that you knew what the set up was and that you tried to pull a fast one and it failed. The fact that you paid in Tara street is irrelevant as it was the only way your were going to get out of the station without being in possession of a valid ticket.
The one major thing that you are doing wrong is seeking advice on boards.ie, if you were genuine and got a fine and threatened with the courts then your first and only course of action after or before appealing is to seek the advice of a solicitor not boards.ie.
Im not have a go at you its just how it comes across to me.

areyawell

Pay the fine, don't go to court. You had money in your pocket where the ticket machine was but didnt have the correct change. It was up to you to get the change to be able to use the service. Judge will not take kindly to that and think you are a chancer. Just because you were running late does not make it a viable excuse. Its like going to a shop and wanting to pay by check but they dont accept cheques and your telling them your running late. It really sounds to me like your trying to pull a fast one and just didnt bother paying because you were in a rush. You took the Luas before and had to know they didnt take 1c or 2c coins which I really do not believe to be true

hatrickpatrick

^ Just want to point out that I have in fact never taken the Luas before
I don't think I'll go to court although I really do want to know how they can simply shelve their own bye laws in a case like this, if I'm annoyed about anything it's the ambiguous reply I got back.

areyawell

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

^ Just want to point out that I have in fact never taken the Luas before
I don't think I'll go to court although I really do want to know how they can simply shelve their own bye laws in a case like this, if I'm annoyed about anything it's the ambiguous reply I got back.

How exactly? Its the same as getting a taxi and running out without paying. What are you thinking of appealing exactly? You were too lazy to go and get change to use the Luas because you were running late? I dont believe the whole 1c/2c story and a judge wont either

hatrickpatrick

areyawell wrote: »

How exactly? Its the same as getting a taxi and running out without paying. What are you thinking of appealing exactly? You were too lazy to go and get change to use the Luas because you were running late? I dont believe the whole 1c/2c story and a judge wont either

As I said, I've never actually used the Luas, that I can remember. Don't have anything against it of course, just never had occasion to need it!
Would be wise to read at the very least the OP before posting in a thread, don't you think?

Victor

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Is it a criminal offence? Refusing to pay a fine might be but is it a civil or a criminal court these cases gets heard in?

It would result in a criminal conviction.

n97 mini

areyawell wrote: »

How exactly? Its the same as getting a taxi and running out without paying. What are you thinking of appealing exactly? You were too lazy to go and get change to use the Luas because you were running late? I dont believe the whole 1c/2c story and a judge wont either

Are those horsey noises I hear?

hatrickpatrick

Emailed both the the RPU and the general enquiries email for Irish Rail, asking for clarification on SI 109/1984 and how they define a "booking office" for future reference.
Asked them for a speedy reply as I have 14 days to pay the fine and was considering taking my argument to court.

Will report back with results, when I get results. One way or another this might clear up the confusion over this issue for the long run, and for other future rail adventurers.

PS: To the haters who advise I simply let this go without even attempting to fight my case... I'm an Irishman. That's not what we do.

foggy_lad

Irish rail and their agents will always tell you wrongly that a ticket machine is a booking office.

Hilly Bill

Victor wrote: »

It would result in a criminal conviction.

What would?

Hilly Bill

foggy_lad wrote: »

Irish rail and their agents will always tell you wrongly that a ticket machine is a booking office.

What do you mainly use a booking/ticket office at a station for?
Buy a ticket for the train.

What do you mainly use a ticket machine for?

Buy a ticket for the train.

Both serve the same purpose.

All that needs to be done is to re word the by-law to include the ticket machines which were not around when the by law was written.
Whats happening now is that some people use this as a get out clause to not buy a ticket before boarding a train and try and get one over IR.
People know that they need to get a ticket before boarding a train but just because there isnt anybody there to personally to hand them a ticket or to stop them boarding without one they ignore the ticket machines and chance their arm .
The more i read what the OP post the more i think that he/she knew what they were doing and are now trying to play the system to get one over IR.

Our man in Havana

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What would?

Losing in court means a criminal conviction. Can you live with the shame?

Hilly Bill

Our man in Havana wrote: »

Losing in court means a criminal conviction. Can you live with the shame?

Do these cases get heard in a criminal court or the small claims court?
What shame? If you feel that you were wrongly fined then its your right to appeal it and if the appeal fails and you still think that you were wrongly fined then its your right to take it to court. If you lose in court then its no shame if you still think that you were wrongly fined and cant be classed as a criminal for appeal a fine.

From reading all these type of thread i havent read once where the OP in the thread have sought legal advice from a solicitor and posted what they said.

Our man in Havana

Do these cases get heard in a criminal court or the small claims court?

These cases are heard in criminal court. If convicted you are then a criminal. Applying for visas and jobs will suddenly get very difficult.

hatrickpatrick

Hilly Bill wrote: »

All that needs to be done is to re word the by-law to include the ticket machines

Agreed, until this is done however what the law "should" say has no legal basis.

which were not around when the by law was written.

I have been repeatedly assured that they were.

Whats happening now is that some people use this as a get out clause to not buy a ticket before boarding a train and try and get one over IR.

Considering I knew full well that I would not be allowed to leave Tara Street without paying at the gate, this is a ridiculous allegation to make.

People know that they need to get a ticket before boarding a train but just because there isnt anybody there to personally to hand them a ticket or to stop them boarding without one they ignore the ticket machines and chance their arm .

Maybe some do, I did not, and as I say I did in fact end up paying for the ticket when I arrived at Tara St, as I knew I would have to before I even boarded.

The more i read what the OP post the more i think that he/she knew what they were doing and are now trying to play the system to get one over IR.

I am merely attempting to avoid a fine which under the company's own bye-laws is unfounded. It's hardly my fault if they fail to keep these up to date, is it?

Hilly Bill

What does your solicitor think of your chances?

Hilly Bill

Our man in Havana wrote: »

These cases are heard in criminal court. If convicted you are then a criminal. Applying for visas and jobs will suddenly get very difficult.

What would be the crime in this case? Trespassing? fraud?

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

What would be the crime in this case? Trespassing? fraud?

Presumably the prosecution is under the 2005 act.

Hilly Bill

which is?

Losty Dublin

Hilly Bill wrote: »

which is?

2005 Railway Safety Act. Given he received a fixed fare notice, it should be noted on it what he is alleged to have done.

L1011

Hilly Bill wrote: »

All that needs to be done is to re word the by-law to include the ticket machines which were not around when the by law was written.

TVMs were deployed across virtually the entire Dublin commuter network at the time the law was written.

They were electro-mechanical rather than computer based and only had buttons for select destinations, but they most certainly existed - in some number too. They were also withdrawn a long time before the computer-based TVMs came in.

n97 mini

Our man in Havana wrote: »

These cases are heard in criminal court. If convicted you are then a criminal. Applying for visas and jobs will suddenly get very difficult.

You get a criminal record for certain offences only. This isn't one of them.

Our man in Havana

n97 mini wrote: »

You get a criminal record for certain offences only. This isn't one of them.

LOL!

You get a record for all criminal convictions. This is the thing that people can't get into their thick skulls. You can just pick and choose. It is a pity that people don't use their heads before deciding to evade a train fare.

Hilly Bill

n97 mini wrote: »

You get a criminal record for certain offences only. This isn't one of them.

Thats what i was wondering, have you a link to anything that would confirm this or is it just your view on it?

Hilly Bill

Our man in Havana wrote: »

LOL!

You get a record for all criminal convictions. This is the thing that people can't get into their thick skulls. You can just pick and choose. It is a pity that people don't use their heads before deciding to evade a train fare.

Any proof of this?

n97 mini

Our man in Havana wrote: »

These cases are heard in criminal court. If convicted you are then a criminal. Applying for visas and jobs will suddenly get very difficult.

They are not heard in the criminal court. It tries the most serious criminal offences, such as murder and rape, which the Circuit Court cannot deal with.

This particular case would be heard in the District Court.

Hilly Bill wrote: »

Thats what i was wondering, have you a link to anything that would confirm this or is it just your view on it?

I was convicted in the local District Court for a similar offence but I don't have a criminal record.