Ruair Quinn and his ahem advisors

TheChizler

Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »

An advisor to the Minister for Education should have some sort of qualification in the field of education and probably have had years experience teaching/lecturing or similar ... or at least to me that makes more sense than someone who has degrees in politics or history. An advisor, suprisingly enough, is meant to advise the Minister on something he mightn't be too well versed in ... from Quinn's own track record there seems little these two boyos can advise him on when it comes to educational matters.

Why would someone with experience in teaching maths/english/whatever to children necessarily be better at providing advice on balancing a budget or managing employees? It would certainly be relevant to advising on the curriculum, but in reality the very top of the DoE has not very much to do with the actual intricacies of education. Same with the upper management of any organisation, the actual people don't necessarily have to have qualifications to do with the company's main operations.

Sir Pompous Righteousness

TheChizler wrote: »

Why would someone with experience in teaching maths/english/whatever to children necessarily be better at providing advice on balancing a budget or managing employees? It would certainly be relevant to advising on the curriculum, but in reality the very top of the DoE has not very much to do with the actual intricacies of education. Same with the upper management of any organisation, the actual people don't necessarily have to have qualifications to do with the company's main operations.

Because ultimately, where does the money go? Ultimately, it trickles down to classrooms/ lecture theaters all over the country, or at least that's it's intention. Who better to advise the Minister on the allocation of vital funding for educational resources (bar salaries of teachers of course, we all know the slippery slope that could lead to) than teachers/lecturers themselves who direct the classroom. It's the people on the ground who know where the funding is needed, not bureaucrats.

Einhard

Cavehill Red wrote: »

I think it is more than fair criticism to demand what the criteria was for hiring these two, what the appointment process was, and what their relevant previous experience was..

I think it's legitimate to seek information on their qualifications, and their capabilities, and then criticise them or not based on that information. I don;t think it's fair to criticse a person without having the pertinent information to hand.

On their wages, and you can be sure that they are multiples of the average
industrial wage, one could have the pick of people with extensive real life
experience such as people the age of these two could not possibly have obtained.

As someone said, one was in his early 30s. I don't think that's too young to be in such a position as was shown in this programme.

I agree with you that the younger man in particular was likely to have attained his position because of Labour connections, and that should be criticised if true. However, I don't think he came across particularly badly in this programmes, namely because it wasn't a very indepth production.

My guess, without knowing anything about them, is that they are Labour Party
timeservers, in the fold from a young age, climbing the greasy pole, whose sole
qualification to serve as advisor is that they have volunteered their services
to campaign for the Labour Party in the past.

And that system should be brought to an end. My contention though, was with the posters condemning the two in question because of their actions and words in this programme, which weren't at all objectionable, especially when one considers that they had been filmed for 6 months.

Let the minister seek his advice from the people who best know the runnings of
the Department of Education - the senior civil servants within it

I don't agree with this. There are only two economists with docotrates in the Dept of Finance for example. I would hope that noonan and Howlin would have some outside people with the relevant expertise advising them, especially after the litany of failures in Finance over the past decade. I think that, if anything, senior civil servants are often far more conservative than politicians, and demanding that politicians depend only on departmental advise and insight risks them becoming hostage to that same conservative ideology. All positions should be advertised and allocated in an open and fair manner; however, I don't think we should deafen ministers to fresh thinking.

Cavehill Red

Einhard wrote: »

I think it's legitimate to seek information on their qualifications, and their capabilities, and then criticise them or not based on that information. I don;t think it's fair to criticse a person without having the pertinent information to hand.
As someone said, one was in his early 30s. I don't think that's too young to be in such a position as was shown in this programme.

Not necessarily, but highly probably. For that to be the case, it would have to be true that there was no one older in the country (or the EU) with superior skills to advise on education matters. Given the scale of such a cohort of people in Europe, I find that implausible to the point of incredulity.

Einhard wrote: »

I agree with you that the younger man in particular was likely to have attained his position because of Labour connections, and that should be criticised if true. However, I don't think he came across particularly badly in this programmes, namely because it wasn't a very indepth production.

I think they did come across as arrogant and uncaring, but I agree it's not especially relevant given the editing of such programmes which can misrepresent.

Einhard wrote: »

I don't agree with this. There are only two economists with docotrates in the Dept of Finance for example. I would hope that noonan and Howlin would have some outside people with the relevant expertise advising them, especially after the litany of failures in Finance over the past decade. I think that, if anything, senior civil servants are often far more conservative than politicians, and demanding that politicians depend only on departmental advise and insight risks them becoming hostage to that same conservative ideology. All positions should be advertised and allocated in an open and fair manner; however, I don't think we should deafen ministers to fresh thinking.

The difference here is that civil service posts are appointed in an open and transparent manner, whereas advisorial positions are not.
The answer to the skill shortage you identify is to replace the civil servants with better qualified people, not to augment one system with another layer of bureaucracy, which itself is appointed without transparency and is clearly open to cronyism.

TheChizler

Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »

Because ultimately, where does the money go? Ultimately, it trickles down to classrooms/ lecture theaters all over the country, or at least that's it's intention. Who better to advise the Minister on the allocation of vital funding for educational resources (bar salaries of teachers of course, we all know the slippery slope that could lead to) than teachers/lecturers themselves who direct the classroom. It's the people on the ground who know where the funding is needed, not bureaucrats.

Would you think that the ground level employees of McDonald's, for instance, would be qualified to advise on running the whole operation? To make the odd suggestion about the day to day running, yes, but not on managing production budgets, salaries, dealing with suppliers etc.

I realise that a ground level McDonald's employee is totally different to a teacher, but I can't really see how ex-teachers would be particularly good at doing anything other than advising on the curriculum, or suggesting the odd new incentive (given that they'd be out of touch with the day to day workings of a school, and can't advise on what particular areas in one particular school are over or underfunded, or see the effects of new policy other than through anecdote).

In Exile

Pride Fighter wrote: »

What show where you watching? The tears in the eyes of the teachers were real, they're hardly protesting to keep their cushy pay packets as you put it.

They are fighting for the wellbeing of our nations young. But I suppose you cannot see that due to your ridiculous ideology.

Go and watch a Ron Paul video and stay out of this thread.

What an obnoxious comment.

Of course the tears were real. There is a good possibility that people will lose their jobs.
Believe it or not, most people are "fighting for the well being of our nations young".
The main problem resolves around money. It is not economically viable to have schools with less than 40-50 students. An argument was made that there is the cost of extensions and buses, but surely that is offset by the possible sale of the schools that are closed/land sold? And if not, a school with 200 students would be cheaper to run than 5 schools of 40.

Ireland will struggle badly for another 2 years. The real turning point for this country will be the end of the Croke Park agreement. Unfortunately, until then, every governemnt will be hamstrung by costs.

And as for your rubbish about stay out of the thread? Why not take your own advise unless you are willing to debate a topic? Believe it or not, just because you hold a view doesn't make it right

Fenian Army

advisors lol, more like 2 c*nts drafted in from labour youth who know fcuk all about education

jank

M three wrote: »

Big point that came up so far was that he cant make any changes to 80% of the education budget, as that much goes towards teachers pay. Far too high a figure. Whats the english equivalent?

The meeting where he was talking to the union and they were asked what 4 changes could they suggest and they just sat there saying nothing summed it all up. They dont give a sh*te about any sort of improvements, they just want as many teachers as possible, getting paid as much as possible, so the fatheads in the union can continue their cushy existence.

The teachers conferences and protests at same are like a bunch of babies squabbling in a playpen

Good post. Very easy to throw stones and write some abuse on the internet. The idea that a politician should be in misery 24 x 7 because he is cutting the budget is so Irish.

jank

Pride Fighter wrote: »

They are fighting for the wellbeing of our nations young. But I suppose you cannot see that due to your ridiculous ideology.

.

Thats a laugh. The Unions don't even care about new teachers entering the work force never mind the nations young. 80% of the education budget is spent on wages and pensions. Do you think that is right?

suicide_circus

Cavehill Red wrote: »

Let's cut to the chase here. These advisors - what qualifies them to advise the Education minister exactly?.

their connections of course! I work in a semi state and its all about the nepotism.

Feeona

I felt a bit for poor Ruairí when he was asked did he ever use a dept credit card to pay for a family meal in McDonalds when he was last in office*. I felt for him again when he was going around in circles trying to explain why he didn't give an emphatic answer of 'YES' or 'NO' to the question!


I wouldn't do a politicians job for love nor money! Imagine trying to remember if you used a credit card during the 90's to pay for what probably amounted to a £15 meal?


The whole programme reminded me of 'The Thick of It' which will hopefully make a return this year \o/






*The guy asking the question was referring to the time when Ruairí was in office during the 90's. A voiceover then informed us that McDonalds didn't take credit cards during the 90's

gigawatt2007

I have to say I was very impressed by the meetings that the Department of Education and it's Secretary generals were having with the likes of the Parent's council and other parties.

I expected these meetings to be hour after hour of sh'te talk and schmoozing but was pleasantly surprised to see a real hardline approach to budget cutting. Thought it was brilliant when the Secretary general to the right of Quinn turned around to the Parent's Council and said "well where would you find X amount in savings then" and the tumbleweed just rolled by.

Would totally agree with the thoughts on the younger advisor, I reckon these guys are only there for drafting speeches and photocopying. I think the 2 aul wans in his office keep them on a tight rein. Your man with the beard will be seen in the upper echelons of the Labour Party a la Colm Keaveney by 2025.

Finally, the comment about the gang sharing a few bottles of 120 was rubbish. If the documentary showed anything is that the civil service at that level plays a very important role in Irish society and is very stressful on those involved and the least they're entitled is a few glasses of wine at Christmas. And let it be noted that they did so in their own building and weren't off boozing in a wine bar like most private companies.

Boombastic

Pride Fighter wrote: »

What show where you watching? The tears in the eyes of the teachers were real, they're hardly protesting to keep their cushy pay packets as you put it.

They are fighting for the wellbeing of our nations young. But I suppose you cannot see that due to your ridiculous ideology.

Go and watch a Ron Paul video and stay out of this thread.

Brilliant, absolutely brilliant. Tears in their eyes over the welfare of the children:pac:



You just made my day:D

Show Time

I wonder would Norway rent us Andres Brevick to work his magic on young FG and Labour.

Mod

Show Time banned for this post.

mackg

Sir Pompous Righteousness wrote: »

Because ultimately, where does the money go? Ultimately, it trickles down to classrooms/ lecture theaters all over the country, or at least that's it's intention. Who better to advise the Minister on the allocation of vital funding for educational resources (bar salaries of teachers of course, we all know the slippery slope that could lead to) than teachers/lecturers themselves who direct the classroom. It's the people on the ground who know where the funding is needed, not bureaucrats.

I don't know about this. If you asked every teacher in a school what was most badly needed you would probably get different answers from all of them relevant to their particular positions.

Also if 80% of the budget goes on salaries and pensions, then you take away even more for costs like light, heat and building maintenance etc. What proportion of the departments budget is actually left to be spent as they see fit? Einhard, you're a teacher do you have some idea of this?

GetWithIt

Einhard wrote: »

He had a point. The fact that there are seven schools on the Dingle peninsula is ludicrous and an example of gross ineffiecencies in government spending in Ireland. Try pointing that out however, and you're against rural communities, or hate farmers, or whatever idiotic statement that can be flung by people who are determined to ignore the fact that serious reforms and cutbacks need to be made, not just in education, bit right across the board.

This point is made time and again. And I think that's the problem.

There is always a sense of "The little people just don't understand. We're making these tough decisions and it's your fault if you can't get what we're telling you."

There was this moment where Quinn was giving a speech at one of the Union meetings and the advisers were sitting with the protestors standing behind them with their placards and you could just see them almost mouthing every word of the speech.

The Department keep saying there are good reasons why these schools must close and anecdotal scenarios are related but wouldn't it be more enlightening, and disarming, if the information was made available in it's entirety?

There are good reasons why these schools are being closed. Make that available. Display simply on a map all the schools. Indicate which ones are being closed. Show what their current students/teacher/budget is.

Don't tell us that there are 7 schools west of Dingle and have a good chuckle. Demonstrate it. Illustrate why these decisions are being made.

MagicMarker

Show Time wrote: »

I wonder would Norway rent us Andres Brevick to work his magic on young FG and Labour.

Is that supposed to be funny?

TheChizler

The only thing that I was disappointed in was the structure of the budget meetings, there seemed to be no chair/organiser, seemed more like a group of people having a discussion down the pub. I used to sit in on budget meetings for a large multinational last year, everyone was either feeding proposals into financial models on their laptops or scribbling away, completely structured and worthwhile.

Did it annoy anyone else about what one lady said? The one who said she would never use the ministerial car for fear of it becoming public and her name slated in the headlines? She said she would rather walk than avail of the service. It's not a good sign that people are afraid to do their job the most efficient way (they could be working in the back of the car, or just getting places faster) for fear of what amounts to a public shaming.

hawkwind23

the entire system is failing.
what angered me is the ridiculous scenario whereby a TD and a few advisers are threw together to form minister for education.
could of been any of them.
im no educated expert on such complex issues such as politics.
however i feel i am able to judge on what i perceive and i dont think the way Ireland is going is going to suit "the children"
is that not what its about? education?

to highlight my point , look at the two advisers mentioned throughout the thread.
glad to see the best educated young men in the country shining the beacon of light for education in Ireland.
all those bits of paper made them fine young men , proud of them!
what heroes , future leaders of Ireland , soon to be rewarded with the salaries and pensions they deserve for their wit and empathy toward the people they serve.
ah sure wont you all vote them in for it in due course.

good luck

Feeona

TheChizler wrote: »

Did it annoy anyone else about what one lady said? The one who said she would never use the ministerial car for fear of it becoming public and her name slated in the headlines? She said she would rather walk than avail of the service. It's not a good sign that people are afraid to do their job the most efficient way (they could be working in the back of the car, or just getting places faster) for fear of what amounts to a public shaming.

And that is the toughest part of working in the public eye. Any little thing you do can be taken out of context and exaggerated beyond recognition. Doesn't matter if the person doing the shaming drinks twenty pints a day, while leaving his/her kids outside the pub to fend for themselves, if someone in the public eye even has so much as a whiff of corruption about them, imagined or otherwise, it's Joe Duffy time!

Show Time

MagicMarker wrote: »

Is that supposed to be funny?

The country is in the s**t so black humour suits the mood.:rolleyes:

Idbatterim

couldnt believe it when i heard the younger of the guys saying "sh**te" at a meeting and on camera :eek:

ejmaztec

Show Time wrote: »

I wonder would Norway rent us Andres Brevick to work his magic on young FG and Labour.

They're already shooting themselves in the feet so Brevick won't be needed.

maringo

Watched the programme and have to say wasn't too impressed with it.

On the other hand I do feel that Quinn is doing a good job so far tbh.

mikom

Gareth Keenan investigates.

Feeona

mikom wrote: »

Gareth Keenan investigates.

That is to say 'Gareth Keenan Invetigates' :pac:

araic88

Those two young advisors came across SO badly I thought.
I know it's just a minor thing but printing the Facebook picture to have an aul laugh during work really got my goat. In our school photocopying is now virtually non-existent even when there's a genuine need, because the budget is so tight, which the staff understand. We certainly don't have the time, ink or paper to be printing off rubbish for a 'chuckle'. I only wonder was he ON facebook while at work :mad:
Also doubt he's ever BEEN to the Dingle peninsula.

When some of the DEIS cuts were reversed I thought it was because RQ had seen sense - turns out he'd been warned "that'll be your medical card"

Finally, RQ was driven alone to the conferences but the others were there too. I hope they weren't all driven seperately, the drivers are paid €5,000+ more than newly qualified teachers Even though I'd imagine they have very irregular hours & have to wait around for conferences etc. to finish (and then listen to RQ and his repetitive music...) but I can't see them needing much more than a driver's license for their job...

Pumpkinseeds

Christ its bloody shocking. 80% of the education budget being spent on salaries. 70% of the health budget being spent on salaries. Its time to get rid of the fecking unions.

The Volt

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Christ its bloody shocking. 80% of the education budget being spent on salaries. 70% of the health budget being spent on salaries. Its time to get rid of the fecking unions.

The major problem is the serious lack of investment in education as a whole. Also, amazing where a bit of union bashing is able to be fit into on boards these days.

Birroc

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

Christ its bloody shocking. 80% of the education budget being spent on salaries. 70% of the health budget being spent on salaries. Its time to get rid of the fecking unions.

At least most of the people in Education (outside the Dept admin) are doing value-add work (i.e. teaching).
From experience in the HSE, there are literally thousands of back-office positions that have zero value add roles which were just created when the health boards amalgamated and people needed something to do (instead of being let go which would have made more sense). Result is too many processes, too many communication channels and too much duplication.

Callan57

IMO the two advisors are a pathetic pair of posers & I doubt they could advise on the location of the loo. They should be sent packing immediately especially after being caught misusing departmental facilities (the copier).

One thing I did learn from the prog though was that the opposition to consolidating or amalgamating small schools is because they loose teacher posts ... as I suspected it's feck all to do with the kids or the community or anyother nonsense just the pure & simple self interest of teachers.
I thought the deafening silence when Ruairi Quinn asked for alternatives to the proposed cuts was the most telling part of the programme ... I just wished they'd let the camera run a bit longer.

Maybe it's just his demeanor or the editing but I didn't get the impression of a minister getting to grips with his job .... he looked a bit shell shocked to be honest.

Sharpshooter

Show Time wrote: »

I wonder would Norway rent us Andres Brevick to work his magic on young FG and Labour.

Mod

Show Time banned for this post.

Mod

Show Time, do not post in this thread again when your ban is up!.

AskMyChocolate

Must say I'm surprised that nobody has posted about the real crux of the matter when it comes to the shocking incompetence of the two "advisors" or addressed Einhard's points.

It makes no odds what qualifications the lads have, and they don't need a background in education in order to do their jobs.

What is important is that they are supposed to be political advisors. The mind boggles.

The complete lack of tact, diplomacy and political awareness they displayed in front of a tv camera was truly staggering. The crass stupidity and political naivety displayed by the younger advisor was unbelievable. Joking about the shutting down of schools in Dingle when they'll be fighting for every seat in the next election and even now are trying to hold onto back benchers was amazing.

He might aswell have said "Let them eat cake". Did nobody tell either of them that appearances are just as important as substance when it comes to politics?

Any ten-year old,would have more political savvy, and could have told him to be careful what he said and how to behave in front of a camera. Came across as arrogant and insensitive and utterly unprofessional.

And did neither of them think to "advise" the minister on the level of creative control he should have before they decided which production company to allow the access to?

As I said, the mind boggles.

Fuinseog

araic88 wrote: »

Those two young advisors came across SO badly I thought.
I know it's just a minor thing but printing the Facebook picture to have an aul laugh during work really got my goat. In our school photocopying is now virtually non-existent even when there's a genuine need, because the budget is so tight, which the staff understand. We certainly don't have the time, ink or paper to be printing off rubbish for a 'chuckle'. I only wonder was he ON facebook while at work :mad:
Also doubt he's ever BEEN to the Dingle peninsula.

When some of the DEIS cuts were reversed I thought it was because RQ had seen sense - turns out he'd been warned "that'll be your medical card"

Finally, RQ was driven alone to the conferences but the others were there too. I hope they weren't all driven seperately, the drivers are paid €5,000+ more than newly qualified teachers Even though I'd imagine they have very irregular hours & have to wait around for conferences etc. to finish (and then listen to RQ and his repetitive music...) but I can't see them needing much more than a driver's license for their job...

I once worked in a school where teachers had to pay for the photocopying.

Ghost Buster

Birroc wrote: »

At least most of the people in Education (outside the Dept admin) are doing value-add work (i.e. teaching).
From experience in the HSE, there are literally thousands of back-office positions that have zero value add roles which were just created when the health boards amalgamated and people needed something to do (instead of being let go which would have made more sense). Result is too many processes, too many communication channels and too much duplication.

My wife works in a major hospital and can give out for hours about highly paid staff who cannot use a computer, clock each other in and out , have virtually empty offices as they have nothing for doing, intimidate lower workers if they ask too many questions about these dodgy practices etc etc.
Its amazingly frustrating:mad:

gigawatt2007

This tactic by the Government of announcing a shocking cut - DEIS in Education and Homecare by Health then rolling back on the changes, is really p'ssing me off.

They're blatantly trying to show 'how bad it could be', paving the way for a cut elsewhere once they rollback.

Why the fcuk were'nt admin staff and consultant fees addressed first?

old boy

Voltwad wrote: »

The major problem is the serious lack of investment in education as a whole. Also, amazing where a bit of union bashing is able to be fit into on boards these days.

with 80% of the budget being spent on pay packets there is feck all left for investment.

The Volt

old boy wrote: »

with 80% of the budget being spent on pay packets there is feck all left for investment.

The Education budget is roughly €1.2bn. There are two problems here. There are a few hundred university and IT senior managers and presidents on over 100k a year, even going up over 200k. There's absolutely no way that that's justifiable.

The second problem is that we spend less on education that practically everywhere else in the EU. If we really do see it as the great liberator then we need to increase that budget substantially.

zaggashaffer

For all those ranting and raving about the Quinn's advisors, their salaries and official job titles are a matter of public record:

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/12/13/00066.asp

Appointee Position Salary
John Walshe Special Adviser €92,672
Deirdre Grant Special Adviser €86,604
Ian O’Mara Personal Assistant €47,304
Neil Ward Personal Secretary €45,160

For those who don't remember names, the first guy was the older guy, named as "senior policy advisor", and is former Education Editor for the Indo.
The second name was the PR advisor who'd been out on maternity leave.
The third guy was the younger looking of the two, and was Quinn's PA in the previous Dail.
The fourth was the guy with the beard, who I believe worked as a party strategist of some type in Labour HQ before the election, and maintained a blog here: http://neilward.ie.

Any idiot knows that the job of a minister involves a whole lot more than creating policy - having people who can be your eyes and ears on the ground in the Oireachtas, with the Unions, and with the Media is essential for any Minister - and something that a civil servant is neither experienced in, nor would be expected to do. I don't think the salaries are particularly outrageous considering the hours required and the roles of the different individuals?

Pumpkinseeds

Voltwad wrote: »

The major problem is the serious lack of investment in education as a whole. Also, amazing where a bit of union bashing is able to be fit into on boards these days.

I am unashamedly and unapologetically anti union.

gigawatt2007

Pumpkinseeds wrote: »

I am unashamedly and unapologetically anti union.

I 2nd that - that's a very union like answer but you know what I mean

M three

Voltwad wrote: »

The Education budget is roughly €1.2bn. There are two problems here. There are a few hundred university and IT senior managers and presidents on over 100k a year, even going up over 200k. There's absolutely no way that that's justifiable.

The second problem is that we spend less on education that practically everywhere else in the EU. If we really do see it as the great liberator then we need to increase that budget substantially.

Nonsense, we're spending plenty, but in completely the wrong areas.
The percentage of money that goes on pay needs to be cut, so money can be spent elsewhere.
Can you not see that?

long range shooter

Show Time wrote: »

I wonder would Norway rent us Andres Brevick to work his magic on young FG and Labour.

Mod

Show Time banned for this post.

Thanks alot,very clever thing to say.:rolleyes:
I would really have liked to say something else,but i am just gonna end up banned again.:eek:
Greeting from Norwegian in Ireland.;)

Callan57

zaggashaffer wrote: »

For all those ranting and raving about the Quinn's advisors, their salaries and official job titles are a matter of public record:

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/12/13/00066.asp

Appointee Position Salary
John Walshe Special Adviser €92,672
Deirdre Grant Special Adviser €86,604
Ian O’Mara Personal Assistant €47,304
Neil Ward Personal Secretary €45,160

For those who don't remember names, the first guy was the older guy, named as "senior policy advisor", and is former Education Editor for the Indo.
The second name was the PR advisor who'd been out on maternity leave.
The third guy was the younger looking of the two, and was Quinn's PA in the previous Dail.
The fourth was the guy with the beard, who I believe worked as a party strategist of some type in Labour HQ before the election, and maintained a blog here: http://neilward.ie.

Any idiot knows that the job of a minister involves a whole lot more than creating policy - having people who can be your eyes and ears on the ground in the Oireachtas, with the Unions, and with the Media is essential for any Minister - and something that a civil servant is neither experienced in, nor would be expected to do. I don't think the salaries are particularly outrageous considering the hours required and the roles of the different individuals?

I disagree ..... that's a 270,000 cut that could be made straight away & I doubt Joe or Josephine Public would notice muchless suffer as a result. :cool:

cristoir

There's a brilliant saying used in the West Wing: "Decisions are made by those who show up".

It's very easy to mock these advisers and the minister but at least they are willing to do something to change Irish society for (what they view) as the best. Those in politics should not be criticized purely on the basis that they are in politics. Someones gotta do it!

Sir Pompous Righteousness

Voltwad wrote: »

The major problem is the serious lack of investment in education as a whole. Also, amazing where a bit of union bashing is able to be fit into on boards these days.

It's not as though it's not justified. Some unions' since of entitlement is such that they think they should be exempt from criticism if it ever arises.

zaggashaffer wrote: »

For all those ranting and raving about the Quinn's advisors, their salaries and official job titles are a matter of public record:

http://debates.oireachtas.ie/dail/2011/12/13/00066.asp

Appointee Position Salary
John Walshe Special Adviser €92,672
Deirdre Grant Special Adviser €86,604
Ian O’Mara Personal Assistant €47,304
Neil Ward Personal Secretary €45,160

For those who don't remember names, the first guy was the older guy, named as "senior policy advisor", and is former Education Editor for the Indo.
The second name was the PR advisor who'd been out on maternity leave.
The third guy was the younger looking of the two, and was Quinn's PA in the previous Dail.
The fourth was the guy with the beard, who I believe worked as a party strategist of some type in Labour HQ before the election, and maintained a blog here: http://neilward.ie

I personally know secretaries working in busy private sector firms (mainly law firms) with literally decades more experience and technical expertise than those two lads and only get paid about half their earnings. Getting paid nearly €50k a year for a bit of photocopying (they attest to this in their video)? Ridiculous. There are qualified and experienced accountants, solicitors, engineers and other qualified professionals who're just about scrapping that figure.

zaggashaffer wrote: »

Any idiot knows that the job of a minister involves a whole lot more than creating policy - having people who can be your eyes and ears on the ground in the Oireachtas, with the Unions, and with the Media is essential for any Minister - and something that a civil servant is neither experienced in, nor would be expected to do. I don't think the salaries are particularly outrageous considering the hours required and the roles of the different individuals?

They kinda are though ... nice soft jobs to be honest.

Sir Pompous Righteousness

mackg wrote: »

I don't know about this. If you asked every teacher in a school what was most badly needed you would probably get different answers from all of them relevant to their particular positions.

Also if 80% of the budget goes on salaries and pensions, then you take away even more for costs like light, heat and building maintenance etc. What proportion of the departments budget is actually left to be spent as they see fit? Einhard, you're a teacher do you have some idea of this?

Invariably some of those salaries will need to be cut in order to fund facilities, maintenance and academic research, which are desperately needed in many areas to be frank. Either they make some serious cuts to salaries (especially in the DOE itself at higher level. Nearly 50k a year for photocopying? Outrageous). It's either that or they ask schools to find alternative sources of funding, which could be almost impossible in this climate. The point is, the DOE needs to seriously review it's priorities and cut back on all the pointless admin and bureaucracy.

pennypocket

Callan57 wrote: »

I disagree ..... that's a 270,000 cut that could be made straight away & I doubt Joe or Josephine Public would notice muchless suffer as a result. :cool:

Indeed. They are not so much 'political advisors' more spin-doctors and media-managers from what I gathered from the programme. On policy issues discussed it seemed to more of a case of how will this go down in the newspapers and RTE, and with the constituency, rather than with any concern about the efficacy of those decisions for Irish education more generally.

Another annoying thing about the programme and the operation of the department (though in fairness, we saw very little of the civil service staff), was this blinkered view that cuts must be made without any reference to the wider ideological basis that brought this situation to bear in the first place. It was just we have to cut, no questions asked, what a terrible position we are in.

It's actually quite depressing to think about the intellectual void in which these decisions are made. The constant smirking did not help. Even more depressing is the apparent lack of qualification of those working in the department, I would have expected that most, if not all, in senior positions would have doctoral or post-doctoral qualifications in education as a minimum. It's not as if they are not getting paid enough.

Lowlight: the loss of the leading light to the department of Secretary General Brigid McManus at the tender age of 53. Although she was on a salary of €215,590 per annum, got severance of €204,000 and a pension of €114,000, I'd say she's bearing up okay.

steddyeddy

I spout a boring manrta again and again when it comes to the pay of these political advisors. Cancer researchers dont get paid as much as those people who are advising these political advisors.

Their politicians they should be well versed in politics already without the need for these political advisors. To be honest given the age of these chaps what sort of meaningful advice can they give as regards politics?

Sir Pompous Righteousness

cristoir wrote: »

There's a brilliant saying used in the West Wing: "Decisions are made by those who show up".

It's very easy to mock these advisers and the minister but at least they are willing to do something to change Irish society for (what they view) as the best.

Bit of a righteous statement to be honest. I seriously doubt their "cause" is their only motivation.

cristoir wrote: »

Those in politics should not be criticized purely on the basis that they are in politics. Someones gotta do it!

Politicians should absolutely be scrutinised by the public over most other professions. After all, who's paying their salaries? Keeping them in constant check is in the public's interest. Power corrupts.