Limerick improvement projects

pigtown

Any chance all this Limerick v Galway stuff could be moved to a separate thread?

Bored_lad

Let's get this thread back on topic does anyone know when the tendering process for The Hanging Gardens will be finished. I know they're preparing the site at the moment but when will the tendering process finish and builders move on site?

zulutango

Bored_lad wrote: »

Let's get this thread back on topic does anyone know when the tendering process for The Hanging Gardens will be finished. I know they're preparing the site at the moment but when will the tendering process finish and builders move on site?

Somebody told me that it will be the end of the year before the construction kicks off properly. Not sure how reliable that info is though. I had a good look through the plans and they're aiming for a high quality development. It'll be far better than what Robert Butler and Healy Architects was going to do back before the crash.

MrJones2013

I know the Horizon Mall has its own thread but they are talking about using the site for office space:

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/212460/new-plans-for-limerick-s-parkway-valley-site.html

Any thoughts on this? Between that site and the developments on the Northern Trust site that side of town is becoming almost like the City West in Dublin!

Bored_lad

zulutango wrote: »

Somebody told me that it will be the end of the year before the construction kicks off properly. Not sure how reliable that info is though. I had a good look through the plans and they're aiming for a high quality development. It'll be far better than what Robert Butler and Healy Architects was going to do back before the crash.

That's good to hear hopefully the council are smart enough to be currently actively searching for an anchor tenant that will take all or most of the building, places like this should have tenants before building is finished.

Poxyshamrock

MrJones2013 wrote: »

I know the Horizon Mall has its own thread but they are talking about using the site for office space:

http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/212460/new-plans-for-limerick-s-parkway-valley-site.html

Any thoughts on this? Between that site and the developments on the Northern Trust site that side of town is becoming almost like the City West in Dublin!

It's a pity to have so much office space located outside the city centre. City East Plaza will have a phase three soon.

MrJones2013

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

It's a pity to have so much office space located outside the city centre. City East Plaza will have a phase three soon.

Agree with you, have been saying the same for a while too. Businesses such as Northern Trust, 3, UPC when they were there should be enticed in to the city centre! I know parking and commuting etc will be an issue if you go down the route of having these in the city but it would increase footfall during the day, entice people to actually live in the city and also force people to make use of the public transport and help the public transport network to evolve.

Poxyshamrock

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Agree with you, have been saying the same for a while too. Businesses such as Northern Trust, 3, UPC when they were there should be enticed in to the city centre! I know parking and commuting etc will be an issue if you go down the route of having these in the city but it would increase footfall during the day, entice people to actually live in the city and also force people to make use of the public transport and help the public transport network to evolve.

Exactly! It makes total sense.

air

The problem is that this:

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Agree with you, have been saying the same for a while too. Businesses such as Northern Trust, 3, UPC when they were there should be enticed in to the city centre!

is not compatible with this:

zulutango wrote: »

Possibly the best, most unique feature of our city is the Georgian section. Most people see it as ugly and derelict (because it mostly is!) but it could be turned into something that would be the envy of cities all over Europe.

Take the opera centre site for example, nothing worth preserving in it whatsoever so instead of spending a fortune preserving facades (that are repeated all over the city), why not raze the whole thing to the ground and give planning for a few proper high rise office / commercial blocks.
The likes of NT didn't consider moving to the city centre because of lack of development land / office space.

If Limerick had the balls to do what Dublin won't, it could progress in leaps and bounds and soak up a lot of employment from multinationals relocating due to Brexit etc.

wigsa100

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Agree with you, have been saying the same for a while too. Businesses such as Northern Trust, 3, UPC when they were there should be enticed in to the city centre! I know parking and commuting etc will be an issue if you go down the route of having these in the city but it would increase footfall during the day, entice people to actually live in the city and also force people to make use of the public transport and help the public transport network to evolve.

Realistically you would have to level some buildings and build some car parks if you were going to put in offices that will hold a couple of hundred people. Public transport isn't good enough.

Even if you look at Cork and the new development at Albert Quay near the docks, there's huge space for car parks and plenty already existing in the general area.

Vanquished

air wrote: »

The problem is that this:

is not compatible with this:


Take the opera centre site for example, nothing worth preserving in it whatsoever so instead of spending a fortune preserving facades (that are repeated all over the city), why not raze the whole thing to the ground and give planning for a few proper high rise office / commercial blocks.
The likes of NT didn't consider moving to the city centre because of lack of development land / office space.

If Limerick had the balls to do what Dublin won't, it could progress in leaps and bounds and soak up a lot of employment from multinationals relocating due to Brexit etc.

That's the kind of ignorant and misguided attitude that led to the destruction of swathes of Georgian buildings in Limerick city over the past 50 years!

"Nothing worth preserving" you say? How about 250 years of history and heritage? These were the first townhouses built as part of the 18th century expansion of the city known today as Newtown Pery. These buildings are perfectly adaptable and suitable for re-use as retail, office or residential accommodation.

Limerick is not exactly lacking in prime land banks. There are vacant sites along the quays, around the Milk Market, on Thomas Street, Roches Street and beside the railway station (to name just a few) all crying out for redevelopment. Lets concentrate on rejuvenating those areas of the city centre instead of entertaining the pathetic notion of destroying yet more of our Georgian architectural heritage!

air

Sorry, I just don't see the attraction of any of the Georgian buildings in that area. They are rectangular redbrick buildings with rectangular windows, devoid of any features worth preserving. They just look depressing as hell in my opinion.
I'm all for preserving quality buildings with architectural merit or even rare examples but I don't think that the buildings in that area qualify under any of those headings.

MrJones2013

wigsa100 wrote: »

Realistically you would have to level some buildings and build some car parks if you were going to put in offices that will hold a couple of hundred people. Public transport isn't good enough.

Even if you look at Cork and the new development at Albert Quay near the docks, there's huge space for car parks and plenty already existing in the general area.

It isn't and I appreciate that, if there was more of a demand for it by making the car less appealing by longer commute times and less parking it would force investment in the public transport service. Park and rides on the outskirts of the city (places like Finnegans, the South Court and Coonagh Cross) would be easy enough to introduce. At the moment the demand isn't there though as most of these businesses are located on the periphery of the city with parking facilities and good access.

Mc Love

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

It's a pity to have so much office space located outside the city centre. City East Plaza will have a phase three soon.

But there isnt any viable office space in the city, its the same argument as the lack of viable retail space. High street stores dont want small units.

zulutango

air wrote: »

Sorry, I just don't see the attraction of any of the Georgian buildings in that area. They are rectangular redbrick buildings with rectangular windows, devoid of any features worth preserving. They just look depressing as hell in my opinion.
I'm all for preserving quality buildings with architectural merit or even rare examples but I don't think that the buildings in that area qualify under any of those headings.

I really hope you are not working in a senior position in the council :pac:

In a sense, you are right about the ugliness. But it isn't so much to do with the buildings themselves but more to do with the context that they are in. Red brick with rectangular windows isn't ugly per se. You wouldn't say the buildings around Merrion Square or St. Stephen's Green in Dublin are ugly, would you? Yet they are much the same. The problem with these ones on Rutland and Patrick Street in Limerick is that they have been made ugly through poor maintenance, terrible signage, uPVC windows, ill-fitting shop fronts. Moreover, the street itself is ugly. It's car-dominated (four lanes of traffic on Rutland Street!!), narrow footpaths, no landscaping whatsoever, no street furniture or art. If all these points were addressed, I would contend that you wouldn't even think of describing these buildings as ugly.

Poxyshamrock

Mc Love wrote: »

But there isnt any viable office space in the city, its the same argument as the lack of viable retail space. High street stores dont want small units.

There wasn't any viable office space on the outskirts either until someone decided to build an office block.

cgcsb

wigsa100 wrote: »

Realistically you would have to level some buildings and build some car parks if you were going to put in offices that will hold a couple of hundred people. Public transport isn't good enough.

Even if you look at Cork and the new development at Albert Quay near the docks, there's huge space for car parks and plenty already existing in the general area.

In Dublin at the moment many of the 70s office blocks with parking are being demolished and replaced by new blocks. The new blocks planning permission is contingent on the amount of parking spaces in the development being greatly reduced or removed entirely in some cases. The logic being less parking=less cars inside the central area.

zulutango

cgcsb wrote: »

In Dublin at the moment many of the 70s office blocks with parking are being demolished and replaced by new blocks. The new blocks planning permission is contingent on the amount of parking spaces in the development being greatly reduced or removed entirely in some cases. The logic being less parking=less cars inside the central area.

Those ideas are heresy in Limerick. We must have more parking!

cgcsb

It's bizzar to see people in a relatively uncongested City like Limerick calling for more parking, i.e. more traffic congestion, especially when there are very good examples of Cities within 200km where they done just that(added more parking) and within a few short years that turned out to be a really bad idea.

Mc Love

Public transport needs to be improved then.

zulutango

Mc Love wrote: »

Public transport needs to be improved then.

How do we improve public transport in such a low density city though? Catch 22 ..

Vanquished

air wrote: »

Sorry, I just don't see the attraction of any of the Georgian buildings in that area. They are rectangular redbrick buildings with rectangular windows, devoid of any features worth preserving. They just look depressing as hell in my opinion.
I'm all for preserving quality buildings with architectural merit or even rare examples but I don't think that the buildings in that area qualify under any of those headings.

Those buildings have suffered decades of neglect and abuse by ignorant and incompetent owners. They were deliberately left unoccupied, exposed to the elements and in a highly vulnerable condition for 5 years. It's a wonder that they're still standing at all! It's been a well used tactic over the years to allow historical buildings to deteriorate to such a degree that developers can then claim that they are structurally unsound, the original interior has been lost and are therefore of no further value so demolition is the only viable option. Thankfully the Patrick/Rutland Street Georgians just about managed to avoid that fate.

If you remove the horrendous plastic windows, install suitable timber sash replacements along with appropriate, sensitive shopfronts the appearance of the buildings would be transformed. Go a bit further and upgrade\widen the footpaths, reduce the parking and you could have a very attractive street as the gateway to the city centre.

bazz26

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

There wasn't any viable office space on the outskirts either until someone decided to build an office block.

National Trust already had a site in Plassey so it made sense to locate a second site not too far away especially if staff/visitors have to travel between sites regularly. The site they acquired on the Tipperary road has lots of space for expansion too which now they are making full use of. I'd doubt that much development would have been a viable option anywhere in the city centre. It also has easy access to the M7 motorway.

air

I agree with you 100% Vanquished & zulutango, however the reality is that the facades are nothing that couldn't be easily replicated or echoed within a modern development. The granary is a beautiful old building, full of character and worthy of preservation. Those brick facades however could be ripped down and rebuilt by tradesmen tomorrow to exactly the same standard.
You mention Stephens Green, but those buildings don't even slightly resemble the likes of the Shelbourne.

The fact is they were poor buildings when they were built, they were poor 5 years ago and now they're just terrible.
I'm all for preserving what's valuable but I think there needs to be some kind of qualification over and above just being old.

You're quite right in that no developer would take on the site until it's clear of the risk that the buildings present, it's already a quagmire with a graveyard in it and god knows what else.
If a company wants to locate in Limerick of course they're going to take a greenfield site on the periphery, much clearer construction delivery timelines and far less risk. Add to that easier access to the motorways and airport and it's a no brainer.
If the council wants to incentivise businesses to locate in the city centre then they need to make suitable city centre sites available without these issues.

The reality of the current approach is that at best those buildings will return to the level of occupancy they had prior to the OC buyout.

MrJones2013

bazz26 wrote: »

National Trust already had a site in Plassey so it made sense to locate a second site not too far away especially if staff/visitors have to travel between sites regularly. The site they acquired on the Tipperary road has lots of space for expansion too which now they are making full use of. I'd doubt that much development would have been a viable option anywhere in the city centre. It also has easy access to the M7 motorway.

Agreed, are NT going to move from Plassey to City East entirely once the extension is complete?

Other cities have premium office buildings in the city centre and this entices people to actually live in the city centre. The population of people living in the city centre here is extremely low (I think Zulutango has the figure). Irish cities and Limerick in particular have or are developing these premium office buildings on the outskirts. It's fine for obvious reasons to have production facilities in industrial estates on the outskirts but offices for the service industries such as NT, 3, Chorus when they were there, these should be built in the city centre in my opinion.

J Mysterio

zulutango wrote: »

How do we improve public transport in such a low density city though? Catch 22 ..

Its already suggested you could run luas style trains from UL > Town and Town > Hospital

MrJones2013

J Mysterio wrote: »

Its already suggested you could run luas style trains from UL > Town and Town > Hospital

This would be ideal but there would need to be significant investment from the government and I don't think they would be willing to invest in a provincial city.

The council should have pushed for more investment when awarded the 'Smarter Travel Demonstration City' and tried to entice people out of their cars by improving the Public Transport and try introduce a BRT system on the most used routes and maybe further down the line you could look at upgrading this to LRT if the usage justified this. Instead all we got was a €9m investment and all that could be done with this is cycle lanes, Coke Zero bikes and the likes which are not going to entice people to leave the car at home.

phog

zulutango wrote: »

You wouldn't say the buildings around Merrion Square or St. Stephen's Green in Dublin are ugly, would you?
It's car-dominated (four lanes of traffic on Rutland Street!!)

Traffic is not always the evil that you like to protray, last time I was in Dublin I drove around Stephen's Green.

zulutango

phog wrote: »

Traffic is not always the evil that you like to protray, last time I was in Dublin I drove around Stephen's Green.

:pac: :pac:

Traffic is being removed from city centres all over Europe, including Dublin, for good reason. The fact that you managed to drive around Stephen's Green is neither here nor there. You didn't drive down major streets like Grafton Street, O'Connell Street and a plethora of smaller streets. You won't be able to drive through College Green soon enough either. Even Stephen's Green, which you heroically managed to drive around, is very restrictive to vehicles and will be becoming more so in the coming years.

phog

zulutango wrote: »

:pac: :pac:

Traffic is being removed from city centres all over Europe, including Dublin, for good reason. The fact that you managed to drive around Stephen's Green is neither here nor there. You didn't drive down major streets like Grafton Street, O'Connell Street and a plethora of smaller streets. You won't be able to drive through College Green soon enough either. Even Stephen's Green, which you heroically managed to drive around, is very restrictive to vehicles and will be becoming more so in the coming years.

There was no heroism involved, it's a simple task but fair play on playing the man and not the post.

The point I was making is traffic is not a deciding factor for most on how well or poor a street looks. If O'Connell St (Dublin) or Grafton street is anything on how people want Limerick to evolve to then I really hope they don't get their wish.