Limerick improvement projects

zulutango

air wrote: »

You mention Stephens Green, but those buildings don't even slightly resemble the likes of the Shelbourne.

Not every building on Stephen's Green is like the Shelbourne, to be fair.

I maintain that there is nothing particularly aesthetically problematic about the buildings on Rutland Street and Patrick Street. The issue is the poor maintenance, signage, plastic windows and the ugly street.

bazz26

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Agreed, are NT going to move from Plassey to City East entirely once the extension is complete?

Other cities have premium office buildings in the city centre and this entices people to actually live in the city centre. The population of people living in the city centre here is extremely low (I think Zulutango has the figure). Irish cities and Limerick in particular have or are developing these premium office buildings on the outskirts. It's fine for obvious reasons to have production facilities in industrial estates on the outskirts but offices for the service industries such as NT, 3, Chorus when they were there, these should be built in the city centre in my opinion.

Unfortunately I've no insight into what NT have plans for.

But I'm also not fully convinced moving offices to the city centre will suddenly increase the number of people living in the city centre. Remember Limerick city centre is small and most of the buildings are old and protected. Increasing the amount of retail or office space on existing buildings would surely mean less residential space to live in the long term?

Also there are a lot of fairly old buildings in the city centre which as already outlined, are decrepit and run down. It could involve spending huge money to bring these building up to a level that makes them suitable as work places. I'd say it would take a bit more than just new windows and a lick of paint on the outside, a lot of these buildings would nearly need to be gutted on the inside, wiring, heating, fire safety, etc. Then you have the building protection laws which put limitations on what large organisation like 3, NT, etc can do with the building to suit their needs. It just makes more sense for them to move to more modern premises that were designed as office space from the start, with room for expansion. Protected buildings may suit small companies as office space more alright but they are not large employers so you need a lot of them in one area to make it worth while.

So I don't think there is a white knight in the shape of moving all companies or people into the city centre, at fixing the problem.

zulutango

The city centre needs large scale residential and high quality apartment blocks. The only real example at the moment is The Strand. We need this many times over.

MrJones2013

bazz26 wrote: »

Unfortunately I've no insight into what NT have plans for.

But I'm also not fully convinced moving offices to the city centre will suddenly increase the number of people living in the city centre. Remember Limerick city centre is small and most of the buildings are old and protected. Increasing the amount of retail or office space on existing buildings would surely mean less residential space to live in the long term?

Also there are a lot of fairly old buildings in the city centre which as already outlined, are decrepit and run down. It could involve spending huge money to bring these building up to a level that makes them suitable as work places. I'd say it would take a bit more than just new windows and a lick of paint on the outside, a lot of these buildings would nearly need to be gutted on the inside, wiring, heating, fire safety, etc. Then you have the building protection laws which put limitations on what large organisation like 3, NT, etc can do with the building to suit their needs. It just makes more sense for them to move to more modern premises that were designed as office space from the start, with room for expansion. Protected buildings may suit small companies as office space more alright but they are not large employers so you need a lot of them in one area to make it worth while.

So I don't think there is a white knight in the shape of moving all companies or people into the city centre, at fixing the problem.

Riverpoint is not fully occupied, the Hanging Gardens site is due to kick off shortly, if you could occupy these buildings it may entice other companies in to the city centre if other buildings/projects were introduced. At the moment there is so much development on the outskirts of the city rather than being focusing more on the city centre itself.

I know something needs to be done with the Horizon Mall Site but will there be tenants if it is turned in to an office complex? Will there be more tenants for phase III at City East (Link is here)?

Personally I'd like to see more of an effort in enticing more suitable businesses in to the city centre, like Uber, and less planning granted for offices around the outskirts......personally

Limerick Dude

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Riverpoint is not fully occupied, the Hanging Gardens site is due to kick off shortly, if you could occupy these buildings it may entice other companies in to the city centre if other buildings/projects were introduced. At the moment there is so much development on the outskirts of the city rather than being focusing more on the city centre itself.

I know something needs to be done with the Horizon Mall Site but will there be tenants if it is turned in to an office complex? Will there be more tenants for phase III at City East (Link is here)?

Personally I'd like to see more of an effort in enticing more suitable businesses in to the city centre, like Uber, and less planning granted for offices around the outskirts......personally

Yeah there seems to be a lot of available commerical space in Riverpoint which you can see from Daft, various floors of the building are available....I know our local councilors harp on about 'the lack of high quality office space in the city centre' but I wonder is this truly the problem why IDA backed businesses don't want to locate here.....

http://www.daft.ie/limerick/commercial-property-for-rent/offices-for-rent/floor-9-riverpoint-lower-mallow-street-limerick-city-limerick-241375/

http://www.daft.ie/limerick/commercial-property-for-rent/offices-for-rent/1st-floor-riverpoint-lower-mallow-street-limerick-city-limerick-81801/

http://www.daft.ie/limerick/commercial-property-for-rent/offices-for-rent/part-5th-floor-riverpoint-bishops-quay-limerick-city-limerick-281165/
http://www.daft.ie/limerick/commercial-property-for-rent/offices-for-rent/ground-floor-riverpoint-bishops-quay-limerick-city-limerick-183019/

J Mysterio

bazz26 wrote: »

Unfortunately I've no insight into what NT have plans for.

But I'm also not fully convinced moving offices to the city centre will suddenly increase the number of people living in the city centre. Remember Limerick city centre is small and most of the buildings are old and protected. Increasing the amount of retail or office space on existing buildings would surely mean less residential space to live in the long term?

Also there are a lot of fairly old buildings in the city centre which as already outlined, are decrepit and run down. It could involve spending huge money to bring these building up to a level that makes them suitable as work places. I'd say it would take a bit more than just new windows and a lick of paint on the outside, a lot of these buildings would nearly need to be gutted on the inside, wiring, heating, fire safety, etc. Then you have the building protection laws which put limitations on what large organisation like 3, NT, etc can do with the building to suit their needs. It just makes more sense for them to move to more modern premises that were designed as office space from the start, with room for expansion. Protected buildings may suit small companies as office space more alright but they are not large employers so you need a lot of them in one area to make it worth while.

So I don't think there is a white knight in the shape of moving all companies or people into the city centre, at fixing the problem.

I agree. Its also true that a lot of thr IT/ Pharma/ Science based jobs will stay around UL in the National Technological Park, as they should.

The city is more suited to Bankers.

J Mysterio

MrJones2013 wrote: »

Riverpoint is not fully occupied, the Hanging Gardens site is due to kick off shortly, if you could occupy these buildings it may entice other companies in to the city centre if other buildings/projects were introduced. At the moment there is so much development on the outskirts of the city rather than being focusing more on the city centre itself.

I know something needs to be done with the Horizon Mall Site but will there be tenants if it is turned in to an office complex? Will there be more tenants for phase III at City East (Link is here)?

Personally I'd like to see more of an effort in enticing more suitable businesses in to the city centre, like Uber, and less planning granted for offices around the outskirts......personally

Theyre still finishing a massive office building on the tipperary road, opposite Harvey Normans etc.

MrJones2013

J Mysterio wrote: »

Theyre still finishing a massive office building on the tipperary road, opposite Harvey Normans etc.

I pressume NT will occupy that once it is finished but according to the Healy Partners site planning has been granted for a 3rd phase which will be a seven story office block. I wonder if this project is completed will there be a tenant looking to move in immediately or will it be idle like half of the Riverpoint building?

pigtown

There was an application in last weeks Leader for a further 2 office buildings at city east to make it 5 in total, as well as two retail units and a parking deck.

MrJones2013

pigtown wrote: »

There was an application in last weeks Leader for a further 2 office buildings at city east to make it 5 in total, as well as two retail units and a parking deck.

It'll be Limericks version of City West in Dublin.

Don't get me wrong I'm not against it, it'll be great for Limerick if they can get tenants for all these buildings!

Vanquished

air wrote: »

I agree with you 100% Vanquished & zulutango, however the reality is that the facades are nothing that couldn't be easily replicated or echoed within a modern development. The granary is a beautiful old building, full of character and worthy of preservation. Those brick facades however could be ripped down and rebuilt by tradesmen tomorrow to exactly the same standard.
You mention Stephens Green, but those buildings don't even slightly resemble the likes of the Shelbourne.

The fact is they were poor buildings when they were built, they were poor 5 years ago and now they're just terrible.
I'm all for preserving what's valuable but I think there needs to be some kind of qualification over and above just being old.

That's more than a little bit misleading now. You've chosen to highlight what is probably the most exclusive hotel in the country. That's not exactly reflective of the general standard of buildings on Stephens Green. Many of the Georgian townhouses there were threatened with demolition in the 1960s and 70s and only a determined campaign prevented wholesale destruction of the streetscape. Some buildings were illegally torn down and the culprits were ordered to rebuild them. Although the reproductions were of a poor standard. You can see some examples of replicas in Limerick city as well.

"Poor buildings" you say? Yeah they must be pretty sh1te alright. They've only stood for two and a half centuries in fairness!:o

marno21

There will have to be large adjustments made to the road infrastructure around the roundabout by Northern Trust and the Ballysimon Interchange if this goes ahead.

The roundabout there is already severely congested coming from Castletroy (it backs up as far as Brookfield) and this extra traffic is only going to make things worse. A slip road from this road (the L5173/Groody Road) so that left turning traffic onto the N24 doesn't have to use the roundabout would be a good start.

air

Vanquished wrote: »

That's more than a little bit misleading now. You've chosen to highlight what is probably the most exclusive hotel in the country. That's not exactly reflective of the general standard of buildings on Stephens Green. Many of the Georgian townhouses there were threatened with demolition in the 1960s and 70s and only a determined campaign prevented wholesale destruction of the streetscape. Some buildings were illegally torn down and the culprits were ordered to rebuild them. Although the reproductions were of a poor standard. You can see some examples of replicas in Limerick city as well.

"Poor buildings" you say? Yeah they must be pretty sh1te alright. They've only stood for two and a half centuries in fairness!:o

Misleading how exactly? I was showing it as an example of a Georgian era building that has some aesthetic merit and is worth preserving.
It has stone cornicing and plenty of other features that are unlikely to be ever repeated in a modern development.
Georgian townhouses are fine, the ones that i've highlighted must surely be at the worst end of the spectrum as examples of the type.
Great, they've stood for over 200 years, amazing.

Keep Limerick as a museum to the worst of poverty stricken Georgian architecture then, it's working well so far. 50,000 odd people living in the city and barely any large employers in the city centre. The place is booming.

In all the years I've been telling people I live in Limerick, I have never once heard anyone say "oh what a beautiful city, I love the Georgian buildings there" Why? It's because they're dour ugly buildings.

The only way the opera centre site will be taken on by a developer is if the council puts the time and effort into clearing the site. Allowing for leaving the granary and the graveyard it would still take years to demolish the remainder and complete all the necessary archaeology etc to pave the way for a significant new development. When this is done the site will be de risked and the council would have a good chance of selling it on at a profit.

I agree there is plenty of other development land available but most of it has similar issues and most significantly is not in public ownership.

Garry123

The Shelbourne as it stands dates from 1866 and is Victorian, not Georgian.

air

Thanks Garry, I'll have to try harder to find something Georgian that looks good in that case.

Vanquished

There's no accounting for taste obviously. You don't appreciate the citys' Georgian heritage. Plenty of others felt the same way over the years and as a result we've been left with atrocities like the George hotel, the AIB bank, Bank of Ireland and Cruise's Street etc etc. These were all heralded as progressive and transformative developments back in the day but instead have scarred the streetscape and inflicted serious damage on the aesthetics of the city centre.

The buildings on Patrick/Rutland Street have been brought back from the brink and will be preserved in the redevelopment. A number of interested parties are involved in discussions to be selected as a development partner so clearly the existing structures are not seen as the impediment to progress that you like to think they are!

Btw the graveyard you refer to has nothing whatsoever to do with the "opera" site. That's located on the opposite side of Michael Street behind the former VHI building and adjacent apartments.

air

Thanks, I thought the site extended a little further.
I can't argue with you on those developments, none of them have any visual merit, however at least all of them are in use comercially.
Penney's would be another one to add to your list, Cannocks had a beautiful facade before it's unfortunate demise.


I've no doubt that some kind of small scale businesses will reinhabit the existing structures, and thus the city centre will scrape along for another few decades.

Out of interest, what are the most impressive / best kept remaining Georgian era buildings in the city?

Finally, I've nothing against the city's Georgian heritage. I think the facades of those buildings could be easily reflected in any new development. I just don't see any point in retaining the structures themselves, they're not suited to current day commercial, retail or residential use. They're a barrier to a vibrant and sustainable city centre.

zulutango

air wrote: »

Out of interest, what are the most impressive / best kept remaining Georgian era buildings in the city?

Pery Square probably.

Most of the Georgian city is relatively intact though, and could be brought back to its former glory.

dave 27

To be honest no Irish city has architecture that blows people away like cities in Europe, Irish cities are more known for their buzz or atmosphere and people rather than architecture, doesn't matter how much of a change the city goes by I think people will always remember the craic they had there rather than the memory of the buildings but that's just in my opinion

panda100

dave 27 wrote: »

To be honest no Irish city has architecture that blows people away like cities in Europe, Irish cities are more known for their buzz or atmosphere and people rather than architecture, doesn't matter how much of a change the city goes by I think people will always remember the craic they had there rather than the memory of the buildings but that's just in my opinion

QFT. It's the people and experiences that make a city, not the buildings. Give me Parnell Street in Dublin over St.Stephens Green any day.

zulutango

panda100 wrote: »

QFT. It's the people and experiences that make a city, not the buildings.

It's both, to be fair. The people are buildings and experiences are in constant interaction.

zulutango

dave 27 wrote: »

To be honest no Irish city has architecture that blows people away like cities in Europe, Irish cities are more known for their buzz or atmosphere and people rather than architecture, doesn't matter how much of a change the city goes by I think people will always remember the craic they had there rather than the memory of the buildings but that's just in my opinion

It's not about looking at lovely buildings. How the city is designed and developed has a huge bearing on how the city works, and how it is experienced. You can't just dismiss architecture as being about lovely buildings. It's a hell of a lot more than that.

wigsa100

zulutango wrote: »

Pery Square probably.

Most of the Georgian city is relatively intact though, and could be brought back to its former glory.

Agreed, it's a pity Pery Square is adjacent to the travesty that is Davis St/Dominick St.

Barrington St is my favourite spot. I'd love to live there. Lovely and quiet, beautiful buildings.

pigtown

I actually like the George...

Poxyshamrock

pigtown wrote: »

I actually like the George...

I never understand why they didn't put the main entrance on O'Connell Street. We've ended up with a cheap Costcutter as a result.

pigtown

Poxyshamrock wrote: »

I never understand why they didn't put the main entrance on O'Connell Street. We've ended up with a cheap Costcutter as a result.

True but at least it's a building of scale that isn't just a glass wall. the Costcutter sign is an abomination though and needs to be torn down.

pigtown

Funding has been secured from the government to open a film skills training hub in the former biblical centre on Dominic St.
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/212878/welcome-for--2-25m-funding-for-new-limerick-film-centre.html

It's going to be operated by Innovate Limerick in partnership with Troy Studios.

zulutango

pigtown wrote: »

Funding has been secured from the government to open a film skills training hub in the former biblical centre on Dominic St.
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/212878/welcome-for--2-25m-funding-for-new-limerick-film-centre.html

It's going to be operated by Innovate Limerick in partnership with Troy Studios.

This seems to have come out of nowhere. Anybody know more about it? What do Innovate Limerick do? I'm wary of these companies set up by the Council. The Limerick Marketing Company seems to have been a disaster in its short lived existence. Would like to see the Council/government get behind the plan to transform the Theatre Royal.

Tefral

zulutango wrote: »

This seems to have come out of nowhere. Anybody know more about it? What do Innovate Limerick do? I'm wary of these companies set up by the Council. The Limerick Marketing Company seems to have been a disaster in its short lived existence. Would like to see the Council/government get behind the plan to transform the Theatre Royal.

I was talking to Siún Ní Raghallaigh recently, she believes there is alot more to come to limerick in regards to this..

pigtown

Innovate Limerick have pretty much established an entirely new industry in Limerick by setting up Troy studios and they are working with the colleges to develop skills. This project is ensuring that the jobs go to local people who can study and have a good career in Limerick.

They are also responsible for the Rathkeale Enterprise Centre which has risen from the ashes of a factory that closed there not too long ago, and now employs more people than it did before the closure.

They also run the LEDP in Raheen, developing a startup culture and other things that I'm not sure about.

They are one of the better council departments.