Limerick improvement projects

zulutango

ah here, it's not negativity to question if they've done their homework on this. The last thing we want is to be taking on a loan for €85 million on a 'build it and they will come basis'. The Bishop's Quay developer will have to go back to the Council (and likely An Bord Pleanála) for planning if he wants to revert to residential. That's a major set back so he would be right to be fairly pissed off with the Council.

dominatinMC

Okay fair enough, I know Limerick has a somewhat questionable track record with these kind of developments but, I'd like to give Limerick 2030 the benefit of the doubt here. This is not the council It was set-up especially to handle these developments and, with someone with as much business acumen as Denis Brosnan at the helm, I'd be hopeful that they will do a decent job. And have done the necessary planning/research.

Silentcorner

dominatinMC wrote: »

Okay fair enough, I know Limerick has a somewhat questionable track record with these kind of developments but, I'd like to give Limerick 2030 the benefit of the doubt here. This is not the council It was set-up especially to handle these developments and, with someone with as much business acumen as Denis Brosnan at the helm, I'd be hopeful that they will do a decent job. And have done the necessary planning/research.

They are way ahead of their job creation targets, Denis Brosnan, has publically stated that they intend to bring 5,000 jobs into the city centre, out of 12,000 in total....and anybody who knows anything about Denis Brosnan would know what he says he means...

The maddening aspect of this is how slowly the physical infrastructure is moving, but how these kind of plans would put off private developers is highly questionable...they have already secure private investment from dozens of FDI companies over the last 5 years, leading to an economic resurgence that could take the citys population and double it over the next 30 years or at least grow the city's population by 50%....perhaps these are the kinds of things that puts developers off!!!

But then maybe they should have done nothing at all!!...

moleyv

zulutango wrote:

ah here, it's not negativity to question if they've done their homework on this. The last thing we want is to be taking on a loan for €85 million on a 'build it and they will come basis'. The Bishop's Quay developer will have to go back to the Council (and likely An Bord Pleanála) for planning if he wants to revert to residential. That's a major set back so he would be right to be fairly pissed off with the Council.

If it's over 100 units they have to go straight to ABP

mdmix

dominatinMC wrote: »

Okay fair enough, I know Limerick has a somewhat questionable track record with these kind of developments but, I'd like to give Limerick 2030 the benefit of the doubt here. This is not the council It was set-up especially to handle these developments and, with someone with as much business acumen as Denis Brosnan at the helm, I'd be hopeful that they will do a decent job. And have done the necessary planning/research.

im glad limerick 2030 were setup to run this as they likely have some level of autonomy. having limerick 2030 in charge means they were quick to organise finance and will be quick to move forward on development. unfortunately they can only work within the brief given to them by the council, which lacks any sort of vision. what has been proposed by limerick 2030 so far are 3 separate developments with no relationship to each other. the lack of any sort of transport proposal is appalling as is the lack of city centre living. this was taken from the irish times today in relation to dublin.

"Recruiters for multinationals have reported demand for accommodation close to their workplaces for young and single staff, but a shortage of suitable apartments has left foreign employees 'surprised' at having to share three- and four-bedroom suburban semi-detached houses."

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/us-firms-warn-housing-crisis-could-harm-ireland-s-competitiveness-1.3279433

this is a huge problem in limerick too. its not just foreigners either, i know plenty of graduates who have left as they are sick of sharing.

cork and galway co. councils are both prioritising high density living in the city alongside office space, while in dublin private developers are beginning to target city centre residential as well as office space. while the rest of ireland is looking forward, limerick is playing catch up while ignoring this glaring problem.

Vanquished

mdmix wrote: »

cork and galway co. councils are both prioritising high density living in the city alongside office space, while in dublin private developers are beginning to target city centre residential as well as office space. while the rest of ireland is looking forward, limerick is playing catch up while ignoring this glaring problem.

I'm not sure there's any evidence to support that at all. Galway is arguably the worst planned of all Irish cities. A sprawling low density, car choked mess! Yet in spite of all that, they've recently announced plans for a new suburb on the western fringes of the city! The large quayside development that got planning permission last week contains no residential element.

There are also plans in motion in Cork for a new town just north of Blarney. There are swathes of brownfield sites in Cork city centre crying out for development. Yet the city continues to sprawl outwards in semi-d estates. Luckily for Cork there are some active local developers who have recently brought or are in the process of bringing significant new office schemes on to the market in the city centre.

Unfortunately we are not seeing a similar level of activity in Limerick. Apart from the Bishop's Quay plan there has been no significant private sector projects proposed since 2008! What the city centre needs above all else is high quality, high density residential accommodation. An illustration of the councils attitude to residential development is the new estate of semi detached and detached houses on a prime site behind Punch's pub little over a Kilometre from the city centre.

Reputable Rog

Vanquished wrote: »

I'm not sure there's any evidence to support that at all. Galway is arguably the worst planned of all Irish cities. A sprawling low density, car choked mess! Yet in spite of all that, they've recently announced plans for a new suburb on the western fringes of the city! The large quayside development that got planning permission last week contains no residential element.

There are also plans in motion in Cork for a new town just north of Blarney. There are swathes of brownfield sites in Cork city centre crying out for development. Yet the city continues to sprawl outwards in semi-d estates. Luckily for Cork there are some active local developers who have recently brought or are in the process of bringing significant new office schemes on to the market in the city centre.

Unfortunately we are not seeing a similar level of activity in Limerick. Apart from the Bishop's Quay plan there has been no significant private sector projects proposed since 2008! What the city centre needs above all else is high quality, high density residential accommodation. An illustration of the councils attitude to residential development is the new estate of semi detached and detached houses on a prime site behind Punch's pub little over a Kilometre from the city centre.

There is no evidence of high density development coming on stream in Cork City Centre, the only project the City Council have committed to is Old Whitechurch Road which may ultimately deliver 600 units on 22 ha on lands approximately 4 km from the City Centre, there's talk of the Docklands but this has been going on since Jesus was an apprentice carpenter.
There a lot of potentially good brownfield lands available at good locations close to the centre such as Sunbeam in Blackpool and around Tramore Road but nothing ever seems to happen.

Vanquished

Clare Street/Lelia Place housing development

mdmix

Vanquished wrote: »

I'm not sure there's any evidence to support that at all. Galway is arguably the worst planned of all Irish cities. A sprawling low density, car choked mess! Yet in spite of all that, they've recently announced plans for a new suburb on the western fringes of the city! The large quayside development that got planning permission last week contains no residential element.

There are also plans in motion in Cork for a new town just north of Blarney. There are swathes of brownfield sites in Cork city centre crying out for development. Yet the city continues to sprawl outwards in semi-d estates. Luckily for Cork there are some active local developers who have recently brought or are in the process of bringing significant new office schemes on to the market in the city centre.

Unfortunately we are not seeing a similar level of activity in Limerick. Apart from the Bishop's Quay plan there has been no significant private sector projects proposed since 2008! What the city centre needs above all else is high quality, high density residential accommodation. An illustration of the councils attitude to residential development is the new estate of semi detached and detached houses on a prime site behind Punch's pub little over a Kilometre from the city centre.

council are actively engaged with developers on turning galwegians grounds into high density development.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/galway-rugby-grounds-to-be-sold-for-high-density-housing-1.3275061

movement on CIE mixed use development including 200 residential units next to ceannt station

http://connachttribune.ie/cie-due-to-publish-tender-for-development-at-ceannt-station/

as for cork, the southwest submission to the NPF 2040 set a targeted population density to support a public transport for the city, the plan is to use the docks redevelopment to achieve this, unfortunately i don't have a link. as for private, 247 apartments are planned in the development below which is similar in scale to the opera centre.

https://www.thejournal.ie/cork-river-lee-development-2-3587161-Sep2017/

jbkenn

Vanquished wrote: »

Clare Street/Lelia Place housing development

Hideous building, totally out of character with the rest of the street, whoever is responsible for that needs their ar$e kicked

juneg

jbkenn wrote: »

Hideous building, totally out of character with the rest of the street, whoever is responsible for that needs their ar$e kicked

Looks like a fire station crossed with a jail and does it have to be so brown

kilburn

jbkenn wrote:

Hideous building, totally out of character with the rest of the street, whoever is responsible for that needs their ar$e kicked

My god thats disgusting

Vanquished

mdmix wrote: »

council are actively engaged with developers on turning galwegians grounds into high density development.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/commercial-property/galway-rugby-grounds-to-be-sold-for-high-density-housing-1.3275061

movement on CIE mixed use development including 200 residential units next to ceannt station

http://connachttribune.ie/cie-due-to-publish-tender-for-development-at-ceannt-station/

as for cork, the southwest submission to the NPF 2040 set a targeted population density to support a public transport for the city, the plan is to use the docks redevelopment to achieve this, unfortunately i don't have a link. as for private, 247 apartments are planned in the development below which is similar in scale to the opera centre.

https://www.thejournal.ie/cork-river-lee-development-2-3587161-Sep2017/

It's a bit of a stretch to suggest that this is some sort of a policy shift. CIE has been looking for investment partners to develop surplus land at Kent and Ceannt railway stations for over a decade. It's in the developers best interests to maximise the potential of those sites but ultimately they'll plump for whatever mix of uses and density guarantees the best return on their investments.

The potential future of the Cork docklands is a long running saga. The bottom line is that major infrastructural investment will be required before any large scale residential or commercial development can take place. There is no commitment to the provision of funding for this. A glorious opportunity has already been wasted with the hopelessly underwhelming and unambitious redevelopement of the massive Dublin docklands area. Something which is continuing to this very day with the disappointing projects at North Wall Quay, Sir John Rogerson's Quay and Boland's mills etc. It's clear that we are still not doing enough to prioritise or promote high quality, high density city centre development over suburban sprawl.

Reputable Rog

Vanquished wrote: »

It's a bit of a stretch to suggest that this is some sort of a policy shift. CIE has been looking for investment partners to develop surplus land at Kent and Ceannt railway stations for over a decade. It's in the developers best interests to maximise the potential of those sites but ultimately they'll plump for whatever mix of uses and density guarantees the best return on their investments.

The potential future of the Cork docklands is a long running saga. The bottom line is that major infrastructural investment will be required before any large scale residential or commercial development can take place. There is no commitment to the provision of funding for this.

Major infrastructural investment, major decontamination of land required, major relocation of existing non footloose businesses all required before a block is laid on these lands.

mdmix

Vanquished wrote: »

It's a bit of a stretch to suggest that this is some sort of a policy shift. CIE has been looking for investment partners to develop surplus land at Kent and Ceannt railway stations for over a decade. It's in the developers best interests to maximise the potential of those sites but ultimately they'll plump for whatever mix of uses and density guarantees the best return on their investments.

The potential future of the Cork docklands is a long running saga. The bottom line is that major infrastructural investment will be required before any large scale residential or commercial development can take place. There is no commitment to the provision of funding for this. A glorious opportunity has already been wasted with the hopelessly underwhelming and unambitious redevelopement of the massive Dublin docklands area. Something which is continuing to this very day with the disappointing projects at North Wall Quay, Sir John Rogerson's Quay and Boland's mills etc. It's clear that we are still not doing enough to prioritise or promote high quality, high density city centre development over suburban sprawl.

yes i agree no policy shift, but there is a drive to build high density in both cities, while limerick is actively scaring off private development in the city centre. what private developer would want to build office or residential now considering the saturation in the office space due to 2030 and the councils refusal to allow new apartments in the city centre?

there will be 40ish apartments in the city centre instead of the 200+ that could have been available in bishops quay, if the development goes ahead. the savoy hotel extension will be removing 20 or so apartments, and no other city centre accommodation, other than social housing being built. there hasn't been any update on the conversion of the former ryan hotel into apartments either. the council keep flaunting the idea of refurbishing some of the georgian buildings, but how many are empty and how many houses/apartements could this bring to market, dozens? hundreds? certainly a long way off whats needed. denis brosnan was in the leader last week saying there will be 50k more people in the city by 2030. thats 4k per year for the next 12 years, it would take around 25 new mungrets for this to happen. these people are delusional, they keep referring to mungret as a part of the city. they don't appear to know the difference between the city, the suburbs and what lies beyond that.

the 2030 project could have built mixed use including residential, or it could have built office and looked for private developers to fill the residential needs. plenty on this forum have been quick to point out galways disastrous planning, I'm simply pointing out that limerick is about to outdo the rest of ireland when it comes to bad planning.

for the record, i don't think the whole plan is a giant failure. the offices will get built, and barring some major brexit or trump tax catastrophe, companies will move in due to the low rent and cheap labour. but traffic will increase along with house prices and rent which in turn will lead to wage increases, affecting our competitiveness and attractiveness as a city. at some stage this poor planning will bite us in the ass and we will be back where we started, all be it with a slightly larger population and a larger city sprawl. i could be wrong, I'm not a city planner, but does anyone consider the 2030 plan good city planning?

Glenomra

I think that Limerick 2030 is an excellent idea and promises a lot for the city. Without it there would be virtually no development in the city, currently no outside developer is prepared to put a single euro into Limerick City. about 12 years ago the Belfast developer Suneil Sharma purchased almost all of Rutland Street, Ellen Street and Michael Street following which busy outlets including Munster Rugby Shop, Limerick Post Newspaper, Trade Electric, Renaissance Salon, Glynn’s Butchers and Office Supplies, two restaurants, a bank branch, post office etc. all closed down. Once thriving streets became virtually deserted. so they remain today; a blight on the city for visitors entering Limerick from Dublin|Clare directions. Its imperative that the Opera Project proceeds with or without residential as the redevelopment of this area would give Limerick the boost that it needs. Then, hopefully the high end fashion shops that the city lacks would be drawn in. Limerick 2030 is giving us the Garden Project, the Film Studios etc. imo it is an excellent project and the city's main hope of rejuvenation. rather than constant negativity people will have to see the potential rather than all the negatives. There are more than enough vociferous critics of the city throughout the rest of the country

tototoe

Glenomra wrote: »

I think that Limerick 2030 is an excellent idea and promises a lot for the city. Without it there would be virtually no development in the city, currently no outside developer is prepared to put a single euro into Limerick City. about 12 years ago the Belfast developer Suneil Sharma purchased almost all of Rutland Street, Ellen Street and Michael Street following which busy outlets including Munster Rugby Shop, Limerick Post Newspaper, Trade Electric, Renaissance Salon, Glynn’s Butchers and Office Supplies, two restaurants, a bank branch, post office etc. all closed down. Once thriving streets became virtually deserted. so they remain today; a blight on the city for visitors entering Limerick from Dublin|Clare directions. Its imperative that the Opera Project proceeds with or without residential as the redevelopment of this area would give Limerick the boost that it needs. Then, hopefully the high end fashion shops that the city lacks would be drawn in. Limerick 2030 is giving us the Garden Project, the Film Studios etc. imo it is an excellent project and the city's main hope of rejuvenation. rather than constant negativity people will have to see the potential rather than all the negatives. There are more than enough vociferous critics of the city throughout the rest of the country

I agree tbh, and not buying the idea that the Opera Centre should have loads of apartments either. There is loads of space in the city center, unused or derelict that could be used for housing / apartments..I think the city centre has more than enough social housing as it is.

Thats just me though

zulutango

It's too easy to dismiss critical opinion as negativity. Many of the contributors in this thread have put a fair bit of thought and effort into their posts, and good points have been made. If you disagree then get into the discussion and make reasonable and thoughtful responses and say why you disagree rather than writing off somebody's opinion as negativity.

For what it's worth, I don't think the Opera Project should necessarily contain a residential element, or a social housing element either. But if we're ambitious as a city (as we say that we are), then we should really employ the best principles in urban design. I'm not sure that has been done. Also, the remit of Limerick 2030 DAC deserves a fair bit of scrutiny. They've honed in on a few key sites for development, but they've very much moved away from the original Limerick 2030 report, which supposedly is their guiding document. Cherrypicking from the report and introducing new elements, without doing a due diligence could really backfire.

Glenomra

the fact is that Mr Sharma's actions in Limerick City have left us with the two major eyesores, Patrick Street dereliction and the Castletroy site -further derelicton. There is no escaping from the fact that at this moment no private developer is prepared to invest in Limerick City -unlike the situation in Cork and Galway. see last week's announcement, one of a number.... 'Galway-based developer Gerry Barrett has submitted a planning application for a substantial office development in the city. The proposed €100 million development would overlook Galway Docks and offer a mix of commercial and retail space. It likely to get the green light from the city council in time to attract post-Brexit foreign direct investment, according to The Irish Times.
Barrett's Edward Capital expects it to create over 500 jobs during construction and 2,600 permanent positions upon completion.The developer said: It will cement a reimagining of Galway as it moves towards 2020 and takes up the mantle of European Capital of Culture.'

Only for the 2030 Project nothing would be on offer in Limerick to change that scenario. They have plans that could transform the city for the better. Last week they borrowed 85,000,000 euro to enable them to progress various ventures. If their projects are a success then other private developers will be attracted to Limerick. without them, Limerick would become increasingly desolate imo

zulutango

Glenomra wrote: »

Only for the 2030 Project nothing would be on offer in Limerick to change that scenario. They have plans that could transform the city for the better. Last week they borrowed 85,000,000 euro to enable them to progress various ventures. If their projects are a success then other private developers will be attracted to Limerick. without them, Limerick would become increasingly desolate imo

Do you see any risks associated with what Limerick 2030 are doing?

Cookiemunster

Glenomra wrote: »

the fact is that Mr Sharma's actions in Limerick City have left us with the two major eyesores, Patrick Street dereliction and the Castletroy site -further derelicton. There is no escaping from the fact that at this moment no private developer is prepared to invest in Limerick City -unlike the situation in Cork and Galway. see last week's announcement, one of a number.... 'Galway-based developer Gerry Barrett has submitted a planning application for a substantial office development in the city. The proposed €100 million development would overlook Galway Docks and offer a mix of commercial and retail space. It likely to get the green light from the city council in time to attract post-Brexit foreign direct investment, according to The Irish Times.
Barrett's Edward Capital expects it to create over 500 jobs during construction and 2,600 permanent positions upon completion.The developer said: It will cement a reimagining of Galway as it moves towards 2020 and takes up the mantle of European Capital of Culture.'

Only for the 2030 Project nothing would be on offer in Limerick to change that scenario. They have plans that could transform the city for the better. Last week they borrowed 85,000,000 euro to enable them to progress various ventures. If their projects are a success then other private developers will be attracted to Limerick. without them, Limerick would become increasingly desolate imo

Bishops Quay. Pretty sure that's private.

Glenomra

as for risks; I am no expert and presume there are - in life there are always risks- but I consider inaction the worst possible scenario. I genuinely believe, and I don't know anybody associated with the 2030 group, that it offers the only chance the city has of prospering in the medium term. I believe that the setting up of an independent body under the helm of Denis Brosnan was a masterstroke which could see the city transformed. I also accept that I might be mistaken, but I am very hopeful. I also believe that Limerick City requires major projects to break through the fog of negativity that surrounds the city and to highlight for outsiders the great potential of the city...and I am saying that as a Clareman

tototoe

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Bishops Quay. Pretty sure that's private.

was just going to ask the same thing?

rebs23

Cookiemunster wrote: »

Bishops Quay. Pretty sure that's private.

That is only one project. In other cities around the country there are multiple similar projects that are proceeding or commencing.
Will be very interesting to see what happens Bishops Quay in the context of Limerick 2030 projects at the Hanging Gardens across the road and the Opera site. Planning permission has been secured for some time now?
In any event where are the other opportunities for private sector investors to compete with a state agency that has secured the land for free and secured the finance at low levels of interest?
If Limerick 2030 sold the lands, would there be private sector interest?
While the plans are great and will provide for office accommodation, what are the current vacancy levels in both the city and suburbs?
Why would a Council borrow and spend so much on offices (without pre-lets) when the real issue with attracting inward investment is housing/residential accommodation?
Should the state or any County Council be making a €170 Million punt on speculative developments?
Who will eventually hold the can if it all goes belly up?
All for development and it is badly needed but this whole scheme seems to be just completely counterproductive in the long term.

pigtown

I understand your concern but the only reason Limerick2030 was established was because the private sector had no interest in investing in the city. I attended a talk by a senior planner a few years ago who basically said that the company wouldn't make any significant return on their investment for a long time but they felt that if they didn't stimulate the economy and provide accommodation for new employers then the city would be totally left behind.

Glenomra

pigtown wrote: »

I understand your concern but the only reason Limerick2030 was established was because the private sector had no interest in investing in the city. I attended a talk by a senior planner a few years ago who basically said that the company wouldn't make any significant return on their investment for a long time but they felt that if they didn't stimulate the economy and provide accommodation for new employers then the city would be totally left behind.

I agree completely. Unlike Dublin, Cork and Galway developers have little interest in Limerick City. They don't realise the potential of the city and the mid-West region. If limerick 2030 doesn't deliver then there is nothing to fall back on.

Vanquished

Which is really bizarre considering the level of investment and development that took place in the late 1990s - 2008 period particularly. I think a big factor now is the almost complete absence of local property developers, most of whom were pretty much wiped out in the crash.

It is a worrying situation though because it's simply not sustainable to have a local authority acting as the principal developer in a city. The imbalance certainly needs to be corrected. Although having said that the level of activity outside Dublin is still pretty modest, with the exception of a decent number of projects in Cork.

Cookiemunster

Limerick Dude wrote: »

An Taisce will be in with an appeal no doubt!

And according to the front page of todays Leader they have indeed appealed the Savoy development.

tototoe

What large private developments are happening in Galway apart from the Dock's area announced recently?

adaminho

Cookiemunster wrote: »

And according to the front page of todays Leader they have indeed appealed the Savoy development.

Thank Fcuk, it's a monstrosity! I'm not against expanding the Savoy (there's plenty of apartments on the other side) but to destroy one of the last granary buildings in the city!