Limerick improvement projects

martyc5674

Reputable Rog wrote: »

One rule for Lyle Lanley, another for Dunnes Stores. The hypocrisy of it all.
http://www.limerickleader.ie/news/home/288444/march-deadline-for-owners-of-limerick-s-horizon-mall.html

Speaking of derilict sites... what ever is happening to the one on Ellen street near Molly’s bar (think it was to be a car park)??

pigtown

The Post are reporting that the council have 'invested' (I'm taking that to mean bought) in the Salesian College site. It's 2.2 acres next to the Cleeves site which itself is 8 acres. So that's a 10 acre site very close to the city centre and owned by the council. That's a massive opportunity to build plenty of high quality apartments along with local retail, some office space, educational space, and possibly the mooted convention centre.

Glenomra

great news if confirmed. I went on a historical outing to Cleeve's last year. amazing site and Salesian Convent was 'screaming' to be added to it. One of the finest riverside urban sites in Ireland. Maybe the badly needed residential needs could be partly addressed here

zulutango

Great news for Limerick Boat Club too. It's fantastic to see this amenity coming back into use. It's super to see so much recreational rowing taking place on the river these days.

http://www.limerickpost.ie/2018/01/05/boat-club-raise-the-roof/

mdmix

Fantastic news re salesians! Hopefully this becomes a mix use development.

Just on cleaves, did anyone use the free parking over Christmas? If so was it busy or not?

Reputable Rog

pigtown wrote: »

The Post are reporting that the council have 'invested' (I'm taking that to mean bought) in the Salesian College site. It's 2.2 acres next to the Cleeves site which itself is 8 acres. So that's a 10 acre site very close to the city centre and owned by the council. That's a massive opportunity to build plenty of high quality apartments along with local retail, some office space, educational space, and possibly the mooted convention centre.

An opportunity to expand the City Centre onto the Northside for the first time, a good mix of private and social accommodation and you have a winner.

pigtown

I'm imagining something along the lines of Dublin's docklands (the only new urban neighbourhood I'm familiar with) but with at least one 15 story building. It would definitely need to be better connected to the rest of the city though as the Shannon bridge isn't pedestrian or cyclist friendly.

johnnyryan89

pigtown wrote: »

I'm imagining something along the lines of Dublin's docklands (the only new urban neighbourhood I'm familiar with) but with at least one 15 story building. It would definitely need to be better connected to the rest of the city though as the Shannon bridge isn't pedestrian or cyclist friendly.

Perfect oppurtunity for them to build their new bridge connecting Bishops Quays if it ever gets done to Cleeves.

tototoe

Reputable Rog wrote: »

An opportunity to expand the City Centre onto the Northside for the first time, a good mix of private and social accommodation and you have a winner.

Personally i think there is more than enough social housing in the general city centre area and the focus should be on high quality accomodation for private use. I believe this should be applied to both the cleeves site and the opera site. Just my opinion though

Reputable Rog

tototoe wrote: »

Personally i think there is more than enough social housing in the general city centre area and the focus should be on high quality accomodation for private use. I believe this should be applied to both the cleeves site and the opera site. Just my opinion though

I agree, just casting.

rebs23

tototoe wrote: »

Personally i think there is more than enough social housing in the general city centre area and the focus should be on high quality accomodation for private use. I believe this should be applied to both the cleeves site and the opera site. Just my opinion though

Legislation (Part V) requires 10% Social Housing on any development over 10 units. Could be part of the reason no residential in Opera Site proposals? Looking at this project again recently for other reasons and I am gobsmacked at the cost, the borrowing required, no pre-lets for offices, no residential, the design and that a Council is taking it on all that borrowing and risk.

pigtown

Well the Revenue is has confirmed that they will move into it so that's a fairly significant tenant. I've a feeling that Part 5 was a large part of why residential hasn't been included but nobody is going to admit to that.

I'm disappointed that an architect hasn't been employed to design it but I don't think the proposal is all that bad. In fairness though the council know very well the risks involved, and to have gotten approval for €170 million from European investment banks they must have cast iron business plans.

jbkenn

pigtown wrote: »

Well the Revenue is has confirmed that they will move into it so that's a fairly significant tenant.

Somehow I think the Revenue had no choice, be interested to know what Revenue will be able to do in the new building that they can't do in Sarsfield House, shuffling paper is still shuffling paper.

D Trent

jbkenn wrote: »

Somehow I think the Revenue had no choice, be interested to know what Revenue will be able to do in the new building that they can't do in Sarsfield House, shuffling paper is still shuffling paper.

Warmer radiators are warmer radiators...

mdmix

rebs23 wrote: »

Legislation (Part V) requires 10% Social Housing on any development over 10 units. Could be part of the reason no residential in Opera Site proposals?

intersting, i hadn't thought of that before

Looking at this project again recently for other reasons and I am gobsmacked at the cost, the borrowing required, no pre-lets for offices, no residential, the design and that a Council is taking it on all that borrowing and risk.

having the revenue as a tenant will offer some stability, also the council will be collecting rent from whoever takes the gardens, which will likely be taken fairly soon. beyond that it does get a bit risky. were almost 10 years into the (international) economic expansion, which usually last 8-10 years. its fairly likely the opera site will be partially empty for a few years after its finished, considering the glut of office space that is due to come available in Ireland over the next few years..

rebs23

mdmix wrote: »

its fairly likely the opera site will be partially empty for a few years after its finished, considering the glut of office space that is due to come available in Ireland over the next few years..

It's not being spoken of too loudly but you're right there is going to be a glut of office space available from this year on in Ireland generally. In the MW you have Shannon Commercial Properties, IDA and private developments finished, in planning and coming on stream. In a region with a 20% commercial vacancy rate building such a large number of offices seems strange.
Interesting tweet here in relation to the original purchase of the site:
https://twitter.com/Gilleeece/status/950837684720848899

Glenomra

City centre locations like the opera centre will attract businesses much quicker than out of town ones. The opera centre has the potential to be a lifesaver for limerick. In Galway lately, and officials there are very conscious of how limerick is improving and it's potential to grow at galways expense. It's imperative that the centre is built soon.

zulutango

It probably should be a mixed use development, and Limerick 2030 should make serious efforts to get people living in the city centre. Just building offices won't cut it. While the money to purchase the site seems to have been given on the basis that social housing is provided, it really isn't the best use for the site. Limerick 2030's hands are tied here, I think. It'll be a case of going back to the drawing board probably.

moleyv

Part V can be provided off site , if agreed with the Council....

zulutango

moleyv wrote: »

Part V can be provided off site , if agreed with the Council....

If agreed between the Council and the Department of Housing? If that's true it's the obvious solution. And it would be better than using the site for social housing too. But, having said that, they really should look at making it a genuine mixed use development rather than all offices if they have any sense at all.

moleyv

zulutango wrote:

If agreed between the Council and the Department of Housing? If that's true it's the obvious solution. And it would be better than using the site for social housing too. But, having said that, they really should look at making it a genuine mixed use development rather than all offices if they have any sense at all.

Just the housing section of the council, i.e. the developer agrees it with the housing section of the council ( developer in this instance essentially being the council)

Regularly done in DCC.

rebs23

zulutango wrote: »

If agreed between the Council and the Department of Housing? If that's true it's the obvious solution. And it would be better than using the site for social housing too. But, having said that, they really should look at making it a genuine mixed use development rather than all offices if they have any sense at all.

Mixed use if perfect as it provides the apartments, inward investors require. FDI won't happen in areas where there is not an ample supply of residential. Still a big gamble though borrowing €170 million.

zulutango

rebs23 wrote: »

Mixed use if perfect as it provides the apartments, inward investors require. FDI won't happen in areas where there is not an ample supply of residential. Still a big gamble though borrowing €170 million.

I'm not quite sure that Limerick 2030 or the Council actually appreciate that point. You don't attract large numbers of people to come to Limerick and work in the city centre by telling them they can live in Annacotty, Mungret and Killaloe and commute in and out.

source

Am I the only one who thinks that more residential in the city centre will not make a blind bit of difference to whether there's life around the city after 5?

Think about it, between the docks and Sarsfield house within 2 blocks of the river there are 14 apartment buildings. That's all within 2 blocks of the river!!!! There's even more residential buildings throughout the city, and not all city residents are from lower socioeconomic backgrounds.

The reason the city is dead after 5 is there is absolutely nothing to do bar drinking and eating. You generate life in a city by having things happening there, theatres, cinemas, cafes, art galleries, bowling, street performances. Make the city a destination where people want to spend their evenings, and you will see more bodies on the street.

There are literally tens of thousands of people living in the city centre, where are they all after 5??? If having people living in the city is the solution, then why is the large population we currently have not making a difference? I honestly do not see how another 160 apartments will suddenly bring life to the city, that the tens of thousands of residents currently here have not already brought.

I do think that some residential in the Opera site could be a benefit, however I do not believe social housing should be included. I say this knowing that I will probably be lynched (and I know that not all social housing residents cause issues), but social housing in an area can at times cause problems and introduce anti social behaviour of the type you don't get from private rentals who are at risk of losing a large deposit.

The type of businesses that the city will be trying to attract will not want to be dealing with that. Imagine a video call with Pa and Anto on the balcony in the background drinking cans of dutch gold and shouting at beures walking pat. It doesn't give a good image and does not look professional. Yes it's an unpopular opinion, but it's a fact that some people in social housing do not give a damn about those around them, and we all have anecdotal evidence of this, so lets not claim it doesn't happen. My own background as a former Garda has given me great insight into what actually happens around this city and the existence and abundance of the type of person I just described.

The fact is that the council knows this too, and know they will have to provide social housing if they include residential buildings in the plan. It's blatantly obvious that this is the reason they have decided to go fully commercial on the Opera site.

zulutango

We don't have a particularly large city centre population. 50% of the resident population of the city live in the outer suburbs. The bulk of the student population also lives in the suburbs. There's fewer people living in the Georgian part of the city than there were in the early 1800's. If I recall correctly it's something less that 2000 people. That's the size of a small town. The 50% that live nearer the city (though not the actual centre) are a mixed demographic, but a big chunk of them is the C1 or lower socio-economic demographic.

You say the large population we currently have is not making a difference. Firstly, it's not actually a large population by the standards of any decent sized city, and secondly try and imagine what city life would be like if you didn't have even these people.

The argument for including a residential element to the Opera Project is not to bring life back to Limerick City. It's so that the area around the site won't become a dead space after the closure of the offices in the evening. It's a fairly proven urban design principle. There's a whole load of other design considerations to achieve this other than simply putting apartments there, but because neither Limerick 2030 nor the Council employ urban designers they don't really get this point so they've come up with a very simplistic plan based on the returns yielded by commercial office space. The other reason for putting apartments in the Opera project is so that people working in the city can live in the city instead of the suburbs. If you have more city centre jobs, as the Opera Project promises, then you'll have greater demand on the existing housing stock and that will lead to rental inflation. That's already happening, as we know, due to the arrival of big employers to the city centre in recent years. Limerick city centre has the fastest increasing rents in the country at the moment. Throw in a few thousand more city centre workers without providing accommodation for them and you greatly exacerbate that situation.

The social housing argument for the Opera site is different again, and it's largely political.

Cookiemunster

The second €85m loan for the Opera site development has been officially signed off by the CEB.

https://coebank.org/en/news-and-publications/news/ceb-and-limerick-sign-85-million-loan-agreement-infrastructure-development/

zulutango

What happens if An Bord Pleanála put a stop to their plans? Also, who repays the loans if the plan fails (assuming it goes ahead)?

Glenomra

incidentally, I took a lengthy walk around the city last evening, January resolution and all that ! i noticed many shops, that I hadn't noticed previously, ethnic restaurants, coffee shops, computer repair etc etc. nothing individually remarkable, but between them all, I was left with impression of a reasonably busy city, busier than I expected. imo the one area the city is short of is good quality ladies' shops, boutiques etc. at least that's what my wife tells me and she is some shopper. also, they are the shops that attract the buyers. maybe I misread the situation, the sun certainly wasn't in my eyes yesterday, but the city does appear to on the up. Iu would love to know what others think.

Glenomra

zulutango wrote: »

What happens if An Bord Pleanála put a stop to their plans? Also, who repays the loans if the plan fails (assuming it goes ahead)?

what happens if we don't proceed with the Opera Centre? also, does the citynot proceed with any development in case the plan fails. if that becomes the city's philosophy then we have no prospects of making progress. the Denis Brosnan lead venture offers the city its best hope of making a significant breakthrough

Mutant z

Cookiemunster wrote: »

The second €85m loan for the Opera site development has been officially signed off by the CEB.

https://coebank.org/en/news-and-publications/news/ceb-and-limerick-sign-85-million-loan-agreement-infrastructure-development/

Does this mean after all this time it will finally go ahead well something positive for the City Centre all those out of town shopping centres and retail parks have practical killed the city centre.